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[airjamy]

A few reasons why I like Drain magic
1- Outside of WE and HE, LM are the only ones with access to High Magic. Unless I am missing something. This means few armies have access to it.
2- Everything I've seen, people are planning on all bringing Level 4 mages. Sure a Level 4 can easily dispel a level 1 and 2. But since you have to better the result to dispel, a level 4 is parity with a level 3 to dispel, and will be less successful at dispelling other level 4 spells than they are at casting. So if I can just prevent them from casting to begin with, thats great.
3- Dispelling carries the risk of a miscast now. A double 1 isn't just a failure, but an outright miscast. So the less dispel attempts I make the better.
4- Its a remain in play spell. So if they don't dispel it initially, this means they risk a dispel miscast TWICE to get rid of it. Sure the second attempt it easier, but its still an opportunity to miscast.
5- Dispel scrolls are 20 points and not automatic.

SO, adding 2 to your opponent's requirements to cast essentially makes you feel like a Level 6 wizard dispelling their spells. But with no risk to miscast for you, just them. And it pretty much shuts down level 1 or 2 mages, and most bound spells, without you having to so much as lift a finger. Yes, there are multiple rolls before it really has an effect, but if it does take effect, its great. And if if doesn't, it still presented them with more opportunities to miscast than me.

I think Dwarves running heavy on the runic and TK will be particularly handled by it.

As for the ethereal discussion, I know you already see the fact he is protected by LC, but I have had this conversation outside the forums a few times now, so just going to elaborate on it for everyone's education, because I think alot of people are mixing up what "troop type" is.

Lone Character (pg 206 BTB) offers more protection than ethereal and prevents this "Bypass" of shooting TG by targeting the Slann, since he can't be targeted anyways.

LC says same troop type i.e. "Infantry, cavalry". It does not specify Regular Infantry, Heavy Infantry etc. There are 5 troop types (p 188) and the flavours within each of those are "sub-categories". Additionally, Lone Character applies to "Infantry or Cavalry", not specifying the Sub-Category. the Slann and TG are the same Troop Type - Infantry. They are not the same Sub-Category. But that doesn't matter for Lone Character. This makes sense for the most part in the context of the other infantry types- IE a Heavy Infantry Lone Character within 3" of a Regular Infantry unit shouldn't be targetable. I get how logically this would be a stretch for say a swarm protecting a slann, but mechanically sometimes weird things happen. Also, the game is built around taking big points characters. Would be unfun if a 400 point Lord was killed by 80 points of archers every game.

Pg 188, BTB-

"There are five main categories of troop type, each of which is further divided into subcategories.
For example, particularly large infantry fall into the ‘monstrous infantry’
sub-category of infantry. In such cases, when the rules refer to ‘infantry’ models or
units, monstrous infantry must also follow those rules unless an exception is stated for
monstrous infantry."​

Pg 206, BTB

"Any character whose troop type is ‘infantry’ or ‘cavalry’ and that has not joined a unit is
considered to be a ‘Lone character’."​

Pg 206 BTB, Targeting Lone Characters

A Lone character cannot be targeted by enemy shooting or by enemy spells whilst it is​

within 3" of a friendly unit (that is not itself fleeing) that contains five or more models of
the same troop type as the character (i.e., ‘infantry’ or ‘cavalry’), unless the Lone character
is the closest target.

Monstrous Infantry does not have any stipulations on it other than what units they can join/be joined by. But that is moot as the Slann has fly.

So the Slann is Monstrous Infantry, but that's just infantry as far as Lone Character is concerned, meaning as long as he is within 3" of ANY INFANTRY that is 5 or more models, he can't be targeted by shooting either. Unless he is the closest target. Large Target does not bypass Lone Character. Just means they always have LoS and he can't get cover. But that doesn't matter if he can't be targeted. FAQ also extends this to cannons unless he falls DIRECTLY under the hole.

So IMO, Ethereal is really only useful if your Infantry Blocks are just obliterated, or you plan to zoom your slann around the board with his fly ability, or you are super paranoid about super accurate cannons. But if you are keeping him 'bunkered' up in your battleline, he is safe. And with Fly, even if he his closest shielding unit is reduced to less than 5, you should easily be able march him away in your next turn. And as far as the magical attack protection, if I was an opponent and know the slann was ethereal, I'd just make sure to charge it with something with magical attacks. Easy to plan to counter it.

I see how drain magic is good if it works. The problem is that it does nothing if one of those 3 dice rolls fail. Needing a 6 on 2d6 for a lvl 4 to dispell it in their turn is quite likely to happen. So it is a spell that does literally nothing like 80% of the time if you are playing against a lvl 4, which you are likely to play against and likely in range off if you want your drain magic to be relevant at all. I picked it once and it felt very bad against an opposing lvl 4. Becalming Cogitation seems like the way to go to counter enemy magic to me, or the Box or Cupped Hands, not drain magic.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I see how drain magic is good if it works. The problem is that it does nothing if one of those 3 dice rolls fail. Needing a 6 on 2d6 for a lvl 4 to dispell it in their turn is quite likely to happen. So it is a spell that does literally nothing like 80% of the time if you are playing against a lvl 4, which you are likely to play against and likely in range off if you want your drain magic to be relevant at all. I picked it once and it felt very bad against an opposing lvl 4. Becalming Cogitation seems like the way to go to counter enemy magic to me, or the Box or Cupped Hands, not drain magic.

Fair. I guess I like it because I like what else Wandering Brings to the Table in terms of spell selection. And if becalming, I still could end up with it because I like High Magic for the Shield of Saphery and Fury of Khaine. Elementalism is okay, but I feel like fishing for the high magic spells I want will do more for me.

I do wish the conjuration sub-phase specified an order though. Like you have to cast then dispel. But yeah, a smart opponent will attempt to dispel it first then.

 

[airjamy]

Is anybody writing a full tactica already? I think it would be fun to start one, but I do not want to do things that other people already did.

Nvm I found it.

 

[discomute]

Speaking of which I must be dull as I only just realised that halberds are two handed. And you can't attack in the back rank like with spears! So... Honestly hard to see us breaking it out over our hand weapons and shields. +1 st and AB(1) to lose the shield? I think you'd only do it if you were attacking first and hitting on 3's.

Am about to put together a unit of temple guard and am considering giving them hand weapons as I'm so convinced we will barely use halberds. What do people think?

 

[Cristhian MLR]

Is it possible to shoot/fire in combat range? More specifically, is it possible for a Stegadon crew with blowpipes to shoot from atop of the howda, since my logic says that they're in a platform and might be able to do so since they're above the enemies?

Also, a bit late to the howdaw party, but if you welcome any more output, from page 205:

Characters & Chariot Mounts
If a character is mounted upon a chariot (be it ‘light’ or ‘heavy’), the whole model is treated
as being of the chariot’s sub-category of troop type.
Split Profile (Chariot Mount): Not unlike any other chariot, a character that is mounted
upon a chariot will have a split profile, as described on page 97. In game terms, this works
as follows:
• Unless noted otherwise, any special rules that apply to one element (chariot, character,
crew or beasts) apply to the others as well.
• This model uses the Movement characteristic of the beasts that draw the chariot or, if
there are no beasts, of the chariot itself.
• The character, crew and beasts each use their own Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength,
Initiative and Attacks characteristics, and their own weapons.
• In combat, all enemy rolls To Hit are made against the character’s Weapon Skill.
• Impact Hits and/or Stomp Attacks use the chariot’s Strength.
• Enemy rolls To Wound are made against either the chariot’s or the character’s
Toughness, whichever is the highest.
• When this model makes an Armour Save roll, it may use either the chariot’s or the
character’s armour value, whichever is better.
• If the chariot is reduced to zero Wounds, the model as a whole is removed from play.
Improved Characteristics: When a character mounts a chariot, they join its crew,
bolstering their strength, fighting ability and survivability. To represent this, the Wounds
characteristic of the character is added to that of the chariot. For example, if a character
with W3 is mounted upon a chariot with W4, the model would have seven Wounds.

Hey, we're not the only ones hitting at 2s, Arachnaroks have the same issue, regular Warsphinxes have theirs at 3s, maybe they should've specified that this works different for howdahs just like they did in AoS, just send your feedback.

Jungle Swarms are insanely good for 40p. It's a shame I dislike the models so much I won't run them. But honestly if you wanted to be tournament competative I'd think your anvil and core being entirely jungle swarms would do the job.

I'll just use the serpents from the Saurus Riders kit and put them in bases.

Sauri

*Sauruses.

 

[airjamy]

I am still a bit unclear on how the whole Skink Chiefs/Priests riding Stegadons works. We have these rules in our rulebook, page 13:

Character Mount: A Stegadon or Ancient Stegadon may be included in your army as a character’s mount. If so, its points are added to that of its rider.
Note that, because it has the Howdah special rule, a Stegadon or Ancient Stegadon is considered to be a chariot mount, rather than a ridden monster.

So it is a chariot mount. Page 205 describes that:

Characters & Chariot Mounts
If a character is mounted upon a chariot (be it ‘light’ or ‘heavy’), the whole model is treated
as being of the chariot’s sub-category of troop type.
Split Profile (Chariot Mount): Not unlike any other chariot, a character that is mounted
upon a chariot will have a split profile, as described on page 97. In game terms, this works
as follows:
• Unless noted otherwise, any special rules that apply to one element (chariot, character,
crew or beasts) apply to the others as well.
• This model uses the Movement characteristic of the beasts that draw the chariot or, if
there are no beasts, of the chariot itself.
• The character, crew and beasts each use their own Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength,
Initiative and Attacks characteristics, and their own weapons.
• In combat, all enemy rolls To Hit are made against the character’s Weapon Skill.
• Impact Hits and/or Stomp Attacks use the chariot’s Strength.
• Enemy rolls To Wound are made against either the chariot’s or the character’s
Toughness, whichever is the highest.
• When this model makes an Armour Save roll, it may use either the chariot’s or the
character’s armour value, whichever is better.
• If the chariot is reduced to zero Wounds, the model as a whole is removed from play.
Improved Characteristics: When a character mounts a chariot, they join its crew,
bolstering their strength, fighting ability and survivability. To represent this, the Wounds
characteristic of the character is added to that of the chariot. For example, if a character
with W3 is mounted upon a chariot with W4, the model would have seven Wounds.

So reading this, a Skink Chief riding on a Stegadon would add his 2 wounds to the Stegadon (NICE) and he cannot be sniped off it as you combine the profiles. He would also if you have a higher armor save be able to use his, so if he would go for example Silvered Steel the whole model would have a 3+ save. Meteoric Iron also sounds interesting for the always 5+. If he has a Ward Save though the Stegadon should not be able to use it right, as only the Armor Save is used.

Reading this, it does not look like he could be sniped off it. A Skink Chief thus offers a 45 points upgrade for an extra 2 wounds, WS4 instead of WS2 for the entire model and 3 extra pretty decent poison attacks in close combat, WS4 S4. Only downside is that he only goes on a normal Stegadon and not an Ancient Stegadon, but that still sounds like juicy upgrade to me especially since he does not eat up Rare points then. He would also not be allowed to use the Bow i think? XD. Putting a Skink Priest on an Ancient Stegadon still offers it 2 extra wounds and it would mean you could cast off it, making Assailment spells and such very nice even if he would not improve their WS.

Am i missing something? Why are people saying you can snipe him off a Stegadon because it is a Chariot Mount, i cannot find anything pertaining to that?

Sounds like putting dudes on Stegadon is a very good way of supporting our Sauri!

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

you've really made me rethink the stegadon

 

[Ersh]

I would say that Skinf Chief is better on a stegadon than a skink priest.

I will need to test it ofc 1st, but the idea is that "Arcane vassal" is now not only for missiles but could be any spell. Slann can't be a part of a unit, but - he can use arcane vassal via skink that joined a unit (and lots of spells are affecting the unit with a mage only). And w/o using arcane vassal ~25% of spells are kinda useless for us.

Second thought - using Staff of a Lost Sun with a skink chief on a stegadon. BS5 is not so bad, and the range of giant blowpipes and staff is almost similar.

 

[Acehilator]

@airjamy Ward saves are a type of armour save, so the whole thing profits. Would be really weird otherwise, as split profiles specifically do not have split hitpoint values. And a rule would be needed to govern which hitpoint pool gets attacked first.

And of course he can no longer be sniped when he is part of such a model, just like a Goblin Shaman on Arachnarok.

 

[airjamy]

you've really made me rethink the stegadon

I was kinda down on it first as well, be rereading the rules it sounds very nice!

I would say that Skinf Chief is better on a stegadon than a skink priest.
I will need to test it ofc 1st, but the idea is that "Arcane vassal" is now not only for missiles but could be any spell. Slann can't be a part of a unit, but - he can use arcane vassal via skink that joined a unit (and lots of spells are affecting the unit with a mage only). And w/o using arcane vassal ~25% of spells are kinda useless for us.
Second thought - using Staff of a Lost Sun with a skink chief on a stegadon. BS5 is not so bad, and the range of giant blowpipes and staff is almost similar.

And since it is a Howdah, he has 360 inches of vision. I think both are interesting to test out. 7 wounds T6 is a ton, and that is without any items.

@airjamy Ward saves are a type of armour save, so the whole thing profits. Would be really weird otherwise, as split profiles specifically do not have split hitpoint values. And a rule would be needed to govern which hitpoint pool gets attacked first.

And of course he can no longer be sniped when he is part of such a model, just like a Goblin Shaman on Arachnarok.

Ah nice catch! That makes it even better. 1 with a Chief with Meteoric Iron maybe and another one with the 5+ Ward on an Ancient Stegadon? I guess the Skink Chief could wear both! Maybe a Potion of Toughness is funny as well, would push him up to potentially T9 for a turn!

Maybe the real question is if the 0-1 per 1000 points still applies if it is a mount. I think it does..

 

[discomute]

Another issue is if you want a Slann and carnosaur you can't really do the stegadon and chief unless you want an absolute minimum of magic items

 

[Acehilator]

For Skink Chieftain on Stegadon beatstick, I'd go all the way with Blade of Revered Tzunki and Talisman of Protection. Talisman is really a no-brainer, 5+ ward gets more reliable the more hitpoints you have.

Not sure about the restriction, but two Steggies @2k should be fine either way.

 

[airjamy]

For Skink Chieftain on Stegadon beatstick, I'd go all the way with Blade of Revered Tzunki and Talisman of Protection. Talisman is really a no-brainer, 5+ ward gets more reliable the more hitpoints you have.

Not sure about the restriction, but two Steggies @2k should be fine either way.

You can't, you have a 50 pts restriction on items on a Skink Chief.

 

[discomute]

So firstly the way I read the rules we can either choose the chief or steg armour save, can't go "steg armour and skink ward".

For Skink Chieftain on Stegadon beatstick, I'd go all the way with Blade of Revered Tzunki and Talisman of Protection. Talisman is really a no-brainer, 5+ ward gets more reliable the more hitpoints you have.

Not sure about the restriction, but two Steggies @2k should be fine either way.

So are we looking at this for games bigger than 2000 or are we now thinking the stegadon could outrank the carnosaur?

If you want to go for all 3 (Slann/bsb, carno, steg) you have 118 points left to spend. I am starting to wonder if the slann needs anything. Becalming contagion is probably all I'd consider but if we lose it then it becomes possible.

Edit - okay I think I'd give the old blood a shield, a glpyh necklace and a biting blade. I'd give the skink chiefs armour of meteoric iron and talisman of protection. Alternatively you could just accept the stegadons 4+ save and give the skink a sword of might.

Edit 2 -
Slann - bsb / becalming contagion
Old blood, carno, biting blade, talisman of protection, shield
Skink chief - steg - sword of might
997 points

 

[discomute]

Been watching some game reports online.

Two corrections I'll make to my own opinions

Ripperducks - seems that I misunderstood the maximum charge range. Swiftstride does not count. This means they are less likely to fail charges and their compulsory range is reduced. So I'd say they go from F tier to D or maybe, hopefully C.

Saurus - I was hating compulsory units at first. Obviously still I'd rather have the options. But they have been performing far above what I thought they would. And I really like spears. So overall I think the compulsory unit is no big deal at all.

 

[Acehilator]

Ah geez, totally forgot that the Skink Chief is a minor hero with the 50 points cap.

@discomute I don't think OB/Carno and SC/Steg are really comparable, Carno trades offense and mobility for much less durability. Not sure if I want to run all three, I don't think skimping on equipment for the heroes is a good idea. For the Slann, Cupped Hands of the Old Ones is mandatory, and if you want to run Becalming Cogitation, Lore Familiar is mandatory too (and Cupped Hands becomes even better). So pick either the Carno or the Steg, and the rest of the list accordingly.

Regarding Rippers, why wouldn't Swiftstride count? It increases the max charge distance by +3", irrespective of the d6 roll.

 

[airjamy]

So firstly the way I read the rules we can either choose the chief or steg armour save, can't go "steg armour and skink ward".



So are we looking at this for games bigger than 2000 or are we now thinking the stegadon could outrank the carnosaur?

If you want to go for all 3 (Slann/bsb, carno, steg) you have 118 points left to spend. I am starting to wonder if the slann needs anything. Becalming contagion is probably all I'd consider but if we lose it then it becomes possible.

Edit - okay I think I'd give the old blood a shield, a glpyh necklace and a biting blade. I'd give the skink chiefs armour of meteoric iron and talisman of protection. Alternatively you could just accept the stegadons 4+ save and give the skink a sword of might.

Edit 2 -
Slann - bsb / becalming contagion
Old blood, carno, biting blade, talisman of protection, shield
Skink chief - steg - sword of might
997 points

This sounds like a pretty good setup. I have been liking Monster Slayer a lot on a Carnosaur though, it is our only way to get rid of a terrordragon. I would go for i think:

Slann, BSB, Elementalism
Old Blood, Carno, Shield, Dragonslaying sword
Skink chief, steg, meteoric, talisman, additional handweapon

Comes down to 985

 

[airjamy]

This sounds pretty ok for 2K

++ Characters [985 pts] ++
Saurus Oldblood [362 pts]
(Hand weapon, Scaly Skin (counts as heavy armor), Shield, on Carnosaur, Dragon Slaying Sword)
Skink Chief [313 pts]
(Additional hand weapon, calloused hide (counts as light armour), on Stegadon, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Talisman of Protection)
Slann Mage-Priest [310 pts]
(Hand weapon, General, Battle Standard Bearer, Elementalism)
++ Core Units [730 pts] ++
10 Skink Skirmishers [60 pts]
(Javelins and shields, calloused hides (counts as light armour), The Scouts)
10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts]
(Javelins and shields, calloused hides (counts as light armour))
10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts]
(Javelins and shields, calloused hides (counts as light armour))
18 Temple Guard [309 pts]
(hand weapons, halberds, and shields, scaly skin (counts as heavy armour), Revered Guardian (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)
16 Saurus Warrior [261 pts]
(Hand weapons and shields, scaly skin (counts as heavy armour), Shieldwall, Spawn Leader (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)
++ Special Units [55 pts] ++
5 Chameleon Skinks [55 pts]
(Blowpipes and hand weapons, calloused hides (counts as light armour))
++ Rare Units [230 pts] ++
1 Ancient Stegadon (0-1 Stegadon or Troglodon per 1,000 points) [230 pts]
(Great horns and giant bow, Skink Crew (x5) with hand weapons and javelins (required))
---
Created with "Old World Builder"
[https://old-world-builder.com]

 

[airjamy]

So firstly the way I read the rules we can either choose the chief or steg armour save, can't go "steg armour and skink ward".



So are we looking at this for games bigger than 2000 or are we now thinking the stegadon could outrank the carnosaur?

If you want to go for all 3 (Slann/bsb, carno, steg) you have 118 points left to spend. I am starting to wonder if the slann needs anything. Becalming contagion is probably all I'd consider but if we lose it then it becomes possible.

Edit - okay I think I'd give the old blood a shield, a glpyh necklace and a biting blade. I'd give the skink chiefs armour of meteoric iron and talisman of protection. Alternatively you could just accept the stegadons 4+ save and give the skink a sword of might.

Edit 2 -
Slann - bsb / becalming contagion
Old blood, carno, biting blade, talisman of protection, shield
Skink chief - steg - sword of might
997 points

I think you just go all three right. Carno for anti enemy monster/dragon, Slann for the magic and BSB and the skink chief because he is just good on a steg. Maybe even go Skink Priest? The ws4 on defence is very nice though... and with a priest you cannot buy Meteoric.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Really wish the standard format was 2400 or 2500. I like bringing toys, and feel like at that level I am.still making some meaningful trade off choices.

But yeah, at 2k its really tough to take a Carno OB, Chief on Steg and Slann+BSB.

And I am not convinced the Steg is better or even more durable than the OB, particularly since he is limited in magic items.

For my OB I am liking a Bedazzling Helm, Talisman of Protection and Potion of Speed with a standard shield and great weapon. Don't think Ethereal is going to be all that common, so not convinced of the utility of magical attacks over magical defense yet.

Since the carno stat buffs the old blood, he is T6 7W just like a stegadon with the chief. But his magic items just open up more and better options. And the Carno is just brutal vs other monsters

But the steg will flatten enemy troops blocks very proficiently. Tough calls to make.