Poll: ATLA - Choose 6 to protect you, the rest will try to kill you

[Scolenex]

Correct me if I'm wrong but we never see Ozai being powerful except when the comet is empowering him.

I correct you. You are wrong.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[Scalenex]

Here is a compilation of various minor characters reacting to Zuko's Coronation.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think I will go with Azula because of her determination to a cause and her raw power.

Azula is a solid choice. I keep going back and forth on whether or not I want sub out Combustion Man from my list and replace him with Azula. In a one-on-one fight, I'd bet on her, I just don't like the idea of facing off against such a powerful, long range and unorthodox attack as combustion bending.



Interesting query for the field to consider... what do you feel is the ordered top ten list of best combatants from among those we can choose from (each considered at their strongest as depicted in the show)? Specifically in the context of one versus one combat. Neutral ground. No full moon. No Sozin's comet. No day of Black Sun.

I think the top six are fairly evident (but let me know if you disagree)

1. Avatar Kyoshi
2. Avatar Roku
3. Avatar Aang (I would project that in his prime, which would take place sometime after the timeline of the show, he would overtake Roku but not Kyoshi)
4. Iroh
5. Ozai
6. Azula

After that, in no particular order, I think we have: Toph, Katara, Bumi

For the tenth place, I believe an argument can be made for either Combustion Man, Zuko or Pakku.

 

[Just A Skink]

Azula is a solid choice. I keep going back and forth on whether or not I want sub out Combustion Man from my list and replace him with Azula. In a one-on-one fight, I'd bet on her, I just don't like the idea of facing off against such a powerful, long range and unorthodox attack as combustion bending.



Interesting query for the field to consider... what do you feel is the ordered top ten list of best combatants from among those we can choose from (each considered at their strongest as depicted in the show)? Specifically in the context of one versus one combat. Neutral ground. No full moon. No Sozin's comet. No day of Black Sun.

I think the top six are fairly evident (but let me know if you disagree)

1. Avatar Kyoshi
2. Avatar Roku
3. Avatar Aang (I would project that in his prime, which would take place sometime after the timeline of the show, he would overtake Roku but not Kyoshi)
4. Iroh
5. Ozai
6. Azula

After that, in no particular order, I think we have: Toph, Katara, Bumi

For the tenth place, I believe an argument can be made for either Combustion Man, Zuko or Pakku.

Overall, I think I agree with your list. However, based on what I remember about the show, it's tough to say who is #1 of the three Avatars. Do you think Aang deserves to be at least second simply because he learned the technique of energy bending? It could be a challenge to get to an opponent, but once achieved the opponent would be done. Plus, I think an argument could be made for putting Ozai over Iroh. Trust me, I love Iroh, but even Iroh was unsure he could beat Ozai. It might come down to mobility vs. lightning (and redirecting it)?
I want to put Zuko in there, but Combustion Man has such an unusual form of bending that it might be hard for Zuko to counter. Do we ever see Combustion Man firebend?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

However, based on what I remember about the show, it's tough to say who is #1 of the three Avatars.

I think that Kyoshi is generally believed to be the strongest. She is far more warlike and has much more of a killer instinct. Also, her separating Kyoshi island was the single most impressive bending feat depicted on the show.

Do you think Aang deserves to be at least second simply because he learned the technique of energy bending?

I think prime Aang would trump prime Roku, but we never get to see prime Aang in the timeline of ATLA. I just don't believe that a kid version of Aang is more powerful than the adult version of Roku that we see. That version of Roku simply has much more control because he has had much more time to develop and hone his skills.

It could be a challenge to get to an opponent, but once achieved the opponent would be done.

I don't see it being that useful in an actual fight to the death. You really have to have your opponent at your mercy to be able to use it AND even then, there is a chance that it works against you. At that point you could simply finish your opponent. When Aang spirit bends Ozai, he could have much more easily have killed him right there and then. Quicker, more permanent and less risk to the user.

Plus, I think an argument could be made for putting Ozai over Iroh. Trust me, I love Iroh, but even Iroh was unsure he could beat Ozai. It might come down to mobility vs. lightning (and redirecting it)?

You are absolutely correct, a fair argument can be had. In fact, Ozai might actually do better against the field of competitors than Iroh (even if I believe Iroh to hold the edge in a head-to-head between the two, due to lightning redirect). Iroh's lightning redirect is a game changer against Ozai and Azula, but useless against the other characters. On the flip side, Ozai's superior lighting bending, while too risky to be used against Iroh, Aang and Zuko, is much better against the rest of the field.

I think Ozai is too often underrated by the fan base. In the end, Iroh himself admits that he is not sure if he could defeat Ozai. It's a close match. I wouldn't put up too much of a fuss if someone rated Ozai higher than Iroh.

I want to put Zuko in there, but Combustion Man has such an unusual form of bending that it might be hard for Zuko to counter. Do we ever see Combustion Man firebend?

Combustion Man is one of the most destructive characters, but he is a tough one to place. On one side, his offensive output is nearly unmatched, but at the same time, he has his Achilles heal. He also doesn't appear to be too smart. That said, I put him in my list for a reason, that power of his is extremely dangerous.

We do see Zuko block Combustion Man's point blank attack with a fire shield, but it does unbalance and push Zuko back.


I don't believe we ever see Combustion Man bend ordinary fire. The closest we have is P'Li (the Combustion Woman) from the Legend of Korra, who does at one point firebend. It doesn't tell use much though, as I feel she is a better bender in general. In any event, as per the topic rules (we consider the characters at their peak power as depicted during the ATLA show) we can't attribute regular firebending to Combustion Man, because we never see him use it.

 

[Just A Skink]

I think that Kyoshi is generally believed to be the strongest. She is far more warlike and has much more of a killer instinct. Also, her separating Kyoshi island was the single most impressive bending feat depicted on the show.


I think prime Aang would trump prime Roku, but we never get to see prime Aang in the timeline of ATLA. I just don't believe that a kid version of Aang is more powerful than the adult version of Roku that we see. That version of Roku simply has much more control because he has had much more time to develop and hone his skills.


I don't see it being that useful in an actual fight to the death. You really have to have your opponent at your mercy to be able to use it AND even then, there is a chance that it works against you. At that point you could simply finish your opponent. When Aang spirit bends Ozai, he could have much more easily have killed him right there and then. Quicker, more permanent and less risk to the user.


You are absolutely correct, a fair argument can be had. In fact, Ozai might actually do better against the field of competitors than Iroh (even if I believe Iroh to hold the edge in a head-to-head between the two, due to lightning redirect). Iroh's lightning redirect is a game changer against Ozai and Azula, but useless against the other characters. On the flip side, Ozai's superior lighting bending, while too risky to be used against Iroh, Aang and Zuko, is much better against the rest of the field.

I think Ozai is too often underrated by the fan base. In the end, Iroh himself admits that he is not sure if he could defeat Ozai. It's a close match. I wouldn't put up too much of a fuss if someone rated Ozai higher than Iroh.


Combustion Man is one of the most destructive characters, but he is a tough one to place. On one side, his offensive output is nearly unmatched, but at the same time, he has his Achilles heal. He also doesn't appear to be too smart. That said, I put him in my list for a reason, that power of his is extremely dangerous.

We do see Zuko block Combustion Man's point blank attack with a fire shield, but it does unbalance and push Zuko back.


I don't believe we ever see Combustion Man bend ordinary fire. The closest we have is P'Li (the Combustion Woman) from the Legend of Korra, who does at one point firebend. It doesn't tell use much though, as I feel she is a better bender in general. In any event, as per the topic rules (we consider the characters at their peak power as depicted during the ATLA show) we can't attribute regular firebending to Combustion Man, because we never see him use it.

All fair points.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

A new contender emerges...

 

[Scalenex]

A new contender emerges...

View attachment 139848

That's how an old man with a hand cart kept up some with some teenagers on a giant flying bison.

And then managed to found a massive corporation letting his son be one of the richest men in the world in Legend of Korra with Cabbage Corp.

 

[Scalenex]

I recently binged watched all of Legend of Korra. Then I cherry picked rewatches of my favorite scenes on various React channels to get other people's thoughts. Plus I poked around some fan sites.

Nightbringer can make a poll if he wants but I think I can pretty much predict what and ATLA versus LoK popularity contest would look like based on the fan site.

There are people, such as myself, who believe the two shows are equally good and there are people who think ATLA is a better show, either slightly better or way better.

I'm sure they exist somewhere but I have never read the testimony of a fan that likes Legend of Korra better than ATLA.

In my opinion, LoK does many things slightly better than ATLA does one thing much better.

Essentially, ATLA has a more interesting and charismatic Team Avatar. In this way, ATLA is better. But in opinion, LoK has better backgrounds, better fight scene choreography, better side plots, and better villains (not counting season 2).

Legend of Korra did was a good sequel is supposed to. It took the expanding lore and expanded on it in interesting and new directions.

I noticed a broad pattern that a majority of the people who think ATLA and LoK are roughly equal are people who discovered ATLA as adults and the majority of people who watched ATLA as children or teens are comparatively harsh critics of LoK.

There is a novelization prequel series for Avatar Kiyoshi that is widely praised I might check out some day but my backlog of books I meaning to get around to is already extensive. I wouldn't mind seeing a Kiyoshi show but prequels in general are difficult to do well.

Kiyoshi unlocked a rare earthbender to extend her lifespan, so it is a very long novel series. A tie-in comic book reveals that Avatars often live very long life spans if they don't die violently, but Aang had his lifespan shortened by his time in the glacier. Kiyoshi's predessor Karuk sustained a spiritual injury that likewise prevented him from being one of the longer lived Avatars. It is likely Korra will be in the same boat.

They have not confirmed what the next Avatar universe series will be about (though it is widely rumored to be the avatar after Korra), but they are releasing an animated Avatar movie that will go straight to streaming and it will cover the ATLA Gaang as young adults essentially laying the foundations of Republic City.

On the topic for choosing the six strongest. Ignoring the avatars, the characters from LoK are generally better fighters than the ATLA characters. Especially the four-bender team from LoK season 3.

 

[Scalenex]

The trailer looks good which makes me hopeful but Netflix has disappointed me MANY times in the past.

 

[Just A Skink]

The trailer looks good which makes me hopeful but Netflix has disappointed me MANY times in the past.

I agree that it's a cool looking trailer. At the risk of sounding repetitive, my main question/concern is why live action? Other than the attempt to do a successful live action ATLA, is the cartoon not amazing on it's own? Does it need to be remade? Does live action somehow give ATLA more legitimacy? I don't know, I'm sure I'll at least look into this show because I really like the original ATLA, but the cartoon is just so good.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The trailer looks good which makes me hopeful but Netflix has disappointed me MANY times in the past.

I agree that it's a cool looking trailer. At the risk of sounding repetitive, my main question/concern is why live action? Other than the attempt to do a successful live action ATLA, is the cartoon not amazing on it's own? Does it need to be remade? Does live action somehow give ATLA more legitimacy? I don't know, I'm sure I'll at least look into this show because I really like the original ATLA, but the cartoon is just so good.

I have zero interest in it:

• the ATLA cartoon is perfect, it does not need a remake
• ATLA works better as animation
• it's Netflix
• and the biggest red flag... the original creators of ATLA left the show due to creative differences!!!

 

[Killer Angel]

and the biggest red flag... the original creators of ATLA left the show due to creative differences!!!

That's pretty much the main point.
Compare this to One Piece and you'll already see the difference.

 

[Scolenex]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, my main question/concern is why live action? Other than the attempt to do a successful live action ATLA, is the cartoon not amazing on it's own? Does it need to be remade? Does live action somehow give ATLA more legitimacy?

It depends how much of the live action show uses CGI and how much uses practical effects. If the show creators don't destroy some actual cabbages they are just being lazy.

 

[Just A Skink]

• and the biggest red flag... the original creators of ATLA left the show due to creative differences!!!

I hadn't heard that. That is typically a bad sign...ugh!

 

[Just A Skink]

It depends how much of the live action show uses CGI and how much uses practical effects. If the show creators don't destroy some actual cabbages they are just being lazy.

Right? Ha ha!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Nightbringer can make a poll if he wants but I think I can pretty much predict what and ATLA versus LoK popularity contest would look like based on the fan site.

Pointless.

There are people, such as myself, who believe the two shows are equally good

There are people, such as myself, who believe the two shows are equally good

In all seriousness, I'm surprised that you, as someone who is so heavily invested in story analysis and writing, cannot distinguish the quality disparity that exists between the two shows.

If ATLA is a "10", which it is, then LOK is at best a "6". Which is to say that it isn't even close. Hell, you essentially proved that fact yourself: "I have never read the testimony of a fan that likes Legend of Korra better than ATLA". There is a reason why ATLA is so overwhelmingly more popular than LOK.

In my opinion, LoK does many things slightly better than ATLA does one thing much better.

Essentially, ATLA has a more interesting and charismatic Team Avatar. In this way, ATLA is better. But in opinion, LoK has better backgrounds, better fight scene choreography, better side plots, and better villains (not counting season 2).

ATLA does essentially everything equal to or better than LOK, save for one single thing. LOK has much better resolution. Even upscaled ATLA episodes don't enjoy the same resolution quality as LOK. Especially the first few episodes of season 1 of ATLA, which sometimes looks a little bit wonky.

ATLA consists of three amazing seasons, that only get better and better as the story progresses. LOK has one pretty good season (S3), two mediocre seasons (S1&S4) and one absolutely dogshit season (S2). Even LOK's best season (S3) still pales in comparison to ATLA's weakest offering (S1).

Essentially, ATLA has a more interesting and charismatic Team Avatar.

You are right about Team Avatar being better, but it isn't restricted to just the characters that make up the team, but all the characters across the board. ATLA's greatest advantage over LOK is in its superiority in terms of characters (and story).

Since we agree on the superiority of Team Avatar (Aang, Sokka, Katara, Toph, Appa, Momo and later Zuko), let's compare the rest. LOK has one really amazing unique character in Varrick (who is absolutely awesome) and the Order of the Red Lotus characters exude an admittedly (albeit superficial) cool factor. Outside of them though, the rest are bland and boring. It's hard to take interest in or root for any of them.

On the flip side, outside of Team Avatar, ATLA boasts the single greatest character in the franchise: Iroh! LOK has no one that can contend with a character like Iroh . Not to mention, Azula, who is a top notch villain. ATLA has a whole slew of fantastic characters that are all fun and memorable. There are very few duds (I'm not a fan of Jet, but many people like him). And of course, I know how much you love cabbage man.

better side plots

How so? Zuko's redemption arc is the best in the franchise. Appa being kidnapped. These are far more impactful and emotional than Korra's offerings.

better villains

Zuko > Amon
Azula > Zaheer
Ozai > Kuvira

I noticed a broad pattern that a majority of the people who think ATLA and LoK are roughly equal are people who discovered ATLA as adults

That is the opposite of my experience. Albeit anecdotal, the people in my friend/family circle were all introduced to ATLA as adults, and universally all agree that ATLA >>> LOK. People I talk to in person always seem to favour ATLA, and the only time I hear the argument of ATLA = LOK is from people on the internet.

On the topic for choosing the six strongest. Ignoring the avatars, the characters from LoK are generally better fighters than the ATLA characters. Especially the four-bender team from LoK season 3.

Yeah... you better ignore the Avatars. Korra is incompetent.

In some ways yes. As a sequel, LOK introduces new powers or twists on powers.

• ATLA has full moon limited bloodbending - LOK's Amon can bloodbend anytime at will
• ATLA has Avatar Aang spirit bend powers away - LOK allows a non-avatar character (Amon) to do it
• ATLA introduces combustion bending - LOK's P'Li can not only do it, but she can bend/curve the combustion beam
• ATLA has some interactions with the spirit world - LOK goes overboard with the likes of Vaatu
• ATLA introduces the rules to Earth Bending - LOK feels the need to spice it up with Lava Bending

I must concede the point in terms of Amon. He is extremely OP. They literally took the one thing I disliked about ATLA (bloodbending) and dialed it up to an eleven. He would be an auto include in terms of this thread's topic.

As for the four-bender team, they are potent, but could be beat by non-Avatar ATLA characters. Here is my squad to take them down:

• Iroh
• Ozai
• Azula
• Katara (since Toph is too vulnerable to Zaheer's flight)

Katara can out waterbend Ming-Hau

Azula could take down Ghazan or P'Li.

Iroh could take any of the four.

Ozai could take any of the four.

 

[Scalenex]

How so? Zuko's redemption arc is the best in the franchise. Appa being kidnapped. These are far more impactful and emotional than Korra's offerings.

I guess we are comparing apples to oranges or steak and strawberries.

I wasn't clear when I mentioned side plots. I meant the political stuff. I like that it's not boiled down to everyone versus the Fire Nation and I like that defeating the villain doesn't immediately make all the problems go away.

I thought the political subplots in Korra were more interesting than the political subplots of ATLA.

-Bumi lets himself be a prisoner
-Jet is a dick who doesn't mind collateral damage
-Zuko visits a village terrorized by one rogue earth bender

The Dai Li is the only good political subplot in ATLA and that ties directly in with Everyone versus the Fire Nation.

I like nuanced political stuff. I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea. That's why Deep Space Nine is my favorite Star Trek by a wide margin (among other reasons DS9 rocks).


I also enjoyed the family drama in LoK and ATLA didn't have much similar. I would say the romantic subplots in ATLA and LoK were equally cringe (though I really liked the "I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die, it's a compliment!"), but I think I have to accept that I am so cynical on the very concept of romance that I dislike almost all fictional romantic subplots.


I never considered Zuko a villain and I don't really Ozai that much. Mark Hamil is a great voice actor but otherwise the character is pretty bland and one-dimensional. Azula is an awesome villain. But that is one awesome villain and LoK has Amon, Zahir, and Kuvira.



Korra has some annoying character flaws, but Aang has roughly the same number of issues, his flaws are just more adorable.


I can probably even concede that ATLA is better than LoK but I don't buy the notion that ATLA is leagues above LoK.

Maybe worth it's own discussion thread, maybe not. ATLA was a great show but it had many flaws, roughly on par with LoK in my opinion.

Upon reflection, I may have an unfair bias towards Legend of Korra because I am a world building fiend and my own personal goal is to create a setting that is compelling enough to span multiple generations of characters and hold audience interest and this is something very few have accomplished.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I like that it's not boiled down to everyone versus the Fire Nation

I think ATLA did a good job in adding nuance to the Fire Nation:

• Iroh and (eventually) Zuko see the folly in the direction that the Fire Nation has taken.
• The Firebending Masters (the Dragons) show us that firebending needn't come from rage and anger. It can be beautiful and alive. I believe this to be a nuanced nod at the Fire Nation as a whole. They have lost their way.
• Master Piandao, a Fire Nation citizen, readily shares his sword mastery with Sokka
• Master Jeong Jeong is willing to instruct Aang
• Ty Lee and Mai turning on Azula
• ATLA gang spending time in the Fire Nation really humanizes their citizens. They aren't all like Azula or Ozai or Zhao.

At the end of the day, yes, the Fire Nation led by Ozai are the main villains, but I don't see anything wrong with that. No different than the Empire in Star Wars, Sauron in LOTR, Aku in Samurai Jack, etc. I think a great story can be had either way.

Hama would be a small break from the template, as her reaction to her peoples' treatment at the hands of the Fire Nation turns her into a villain.

I like that defeating the villain doesn't immediately make all the problems go away.

I think that makes LOK a bit disjointed. Every season has a convenient new villain pop up. LOK does not have the progressive buildup that we see in ATLA.

I also enjoyed the family drama in LoK and ATLA didn't have much similar.

How can you make that claim? Are you forgetting the family drama between Azula - Zuko - Ozai - Iroh? How does that not count? And what family drama seen in LOK comes even close to that storyline?

I would say the romantic subplots in ATLA and LoK were equally cringe (though I really liked the "I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die, it's a compliment!"), but I think I have to accept that I am so cynical on the very concept of romance that I dislike almost all fictional romantic subplots.

I think that's just you. I asked @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER (who is also a huge ATLA fan), and she agrees that there is nothing cringe in the ATLA romantic subplots. They are sweet and well executed.

I never considered Zuko a villain and I don't really Ozai that much. Mark Hamil is a great voice actor but otherwise the character is pretty bland and one-dimensional. Azula is an awesome villain. But that is one awesome villain and LoK has Amon, Zahir, and Kuvira.

I don't see how you can not view Zuko as a villain in season one. He, along with General Zhao are the main antagonists of that season. He is a conflicted villain, but as he is in direct opposition to our heroes, he still is a villain. That's what makes his redemption arc so satisfying. He comes so far by the end of the series and painfully stumbles along the way.

Ozai perfectly fulfills the role he is supposed to. He is the mysterious big bad. The entire success of ATLA as a show is predicated on the fact that Ozai is seen as an incredibly potent threat. This creates tension throughout the series. He isn't deep like Azula, because he isn't supposed to be. That's what Azula is there for. Ozai is built up in different ways, more indirectly, but just as forcefully. Remember how threatening the shark from Jaws was before the shark was actually shown on film? His build up works something along those lines. Ozai is absolutely badass.

As for the LoK villains:

• Amon - made the worst thing in ATLA even worse. Unrestricted bloodbending is stupid and broken. It completely unbalances the four bending arts.
• Zahir - is pretty good, by LoK standards. Definitely the best of the LoK bunch.
• Kuvira - is boring. Not only that, but she doesn't convey any of the menace that Ozai instills in the audience. If it wasn't for her giant mech suit, the series climax would have been even more flat than it already was. What makes things worse is that Kuvira is much less threatening than Amon and much less interesting than Zahir. She is the definition of an anti-climactic villain. You don't save your prelim fighter for the main event!

Korra has some annoying character flaws, but Aang has roughly the same number of issues, his flaws are just more adorable.

By character flaws, do you mean the essential flaws that a character a well written character must have or that the construction of the characters from a writing perspective was flawed?

I can probably even concede that ATLA is better than LoK but I don't buy the notion that ATLA is leagues above LoK.

ATLA is essentially universally loved. I've never met anyone who watched ATLA and did not love it. LoK on the other hand consistently receives very mixed reviews. The difference between 100% approval and something akin to 50% approval is indicative that ATLA is indeed leagues above LoK.

If the gap between the two was small, then you would at least somewhat regularly run into people who like LoK better than ATLA. However, I've never come across a single instance of that happening and evidently either have you: "I have never read the testimony of a fan that likes Legend of Korra better than ATLA".

That amounts to a very large disparity, not a small one.

Maybe worth it's own discussion thread, maybe not.

I don't think the discussion has enough legs to warrant a new thread. Not enough people on the forum are invested in our ATLA discussion and the ATLA vs. LoK debate would be significantly one-sided. Plus, it would seem that this thread's original topic has run its course.

ATLA was a great show but it had many flaws

I consider ATLA to be as close to perfection as possible. What are these many flaws that you see in it? If ATLA has many flaws, then for a frame of reference, give me a couple of examples of shows that you feel are close to flawless.

ATLA was a great show but it had many flaws, roughly on par with LoK in my opinion.

LoK has many flaws that ATLA simply does not:

• extremely boring characters (outside of a select few)
• unlikable protagonist
• an extremely poor season (S2)
• mediocre story