Poll: ATLA - Choose 6 to protect you, the rest will try to kill you

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Avatar: The Last Airbender




Rules:

• the 6 you choose to protect you will stop at nothing to do so. It is their sole consideration, above all else.
• the rest that will try to kill you will stop at nothing to do so. It is their sole consideration, above all else.
• only consider the individual's themselves, not any alliances or armies they might have (i.e. selecting Ozai will you get Ozai only, not the fire nation army that he usually has command of)
• characters are equipped with their standard kit, but no mounts or animal allies
• you get the characters at their strongest depiction within the show (excluding environmental factors), but not necessarily at their absolute prime if their prime was never shown during the series (Legend of Korra does not count)
• Sozin's comet is not present, nor will there be a solar eclipse
• the battle takes place across a large area (let's say a 10km x 10km square area) that is equally beneficial for all benders. There are rivers, small lake, hills, forested areas and a small town.
• the battle takes as long as it takes, no time limits. If the battle takes long enough, the collection of food/water do become considerations.
• the battle starts on a morning during a random summer's day

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Discuss your choices and how you went about building your team.

I'll post my team shortly.

 

[Scalenex]

only consider the individual's themselves, not any alliances or armies they might have (i.e. selecting Ozai will you get Ozai only, not the fire nation army that he usually has command of)

You saw where I was going...

You need to have wisdom on your team. It's tough to choose between Iroh has the most wise sayings and Huu who has the wisest saying of all.

 

[Scalenex]

Assuming a long drawn out battle I would go with the standard Gaang minus Zuko. Then I'd add Iroh and Roku.

Iroh and Sokka are brains. In the Avatar world you want tried and true wisdom and crazy wisdom. Bumi could theoretically replace Sokka. Piando could theoretically replace Iroh. If you have to run with one smart guy character rather than two, I would run with Huu. He has a mix of pragmatic and out of the box thinking.

Assuming a long drawn out battle with gaps in the battle, eventually someone will need to be healed. That is why I didn't swap Katara for a more powerful bender. She is the only one on the list who can heal.

I'm pretty confident Toph could beat any earth bender. Toph is clever and nimble enough that she could incapacitate all the non-benders on this list. The combo of Aang, Katara, Sokka, and Toph have collectively beaten almost everyone on this list.

Iroh adds some common sense (something the Gaang doesn't have much of) and Iroh can fight pretty well.

Roku has raw power exceeding all other characters on this list though his weaknesses are he is a bit too rigid. The Gaang is not very rigid so they can provide balance. As does Iroh.

Combustion Man is the only member not on my team that I would actually fear. I'm not very good at dodging attacks and I think he's the only one that could one-shot me before one of the benders on my team could bend something to block the attack.

I suppose Ozai could double fist lightning he, but is cowardly and lazy at heart. He doesn't take the field unless he is absolute certain he can win so he would let the others go first before he even entered the fray.

 

[Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER]

The strategy I used to select my picks is who would defend me at all costs based on skill, loyalty and cuthroated-ness.

Iroh
Ozai
Bumi
Combustion Man
Azula
Kyoshi

 

[Scalenex]

The strategy I used to select my picks is who would defend me at all costs based on skill, loyalty and cuthroated-ness.

Iroh
Ozai
Bumi
Combustion Man
Azula
Kyoshi

Marhlect, I forgot about Kyoshi. I am not sure if I want to sub out Iroh, Sokka, or Roku, but I would want Kyoshi on my team simply to not have Kyoshi trying to kill me.

EDIT: I think this discussion would be interesting if the avatars were blacked out since avatars are the most powerful people in the world. and there normally aren't more than one in at a time.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I was hoping to have a few more lists posted before I posted my own. Where is @Just A Skink 's list?

 

[Just A Skink]

I was hoping to have a few more lists posted before I posted my own. Where is @Just A Skink 's list?

Curse you for calling me out, @NIGHTBRINGER! Lol.

I've waffled b/c it's a tough pick. I could just pick the OG Team Avatar b/c they won the day in the end. But, there are some characters that just seem more powerful and characters I just like more. I guess there's no wrong answer?

Aang
Katara
Toph
Sokka
Iroh
Kyoshi

I wanted to have one of each type of bender. I suppose this is just the main cast, with Kyoshi instead of Zuko. I like Zuko's character a lot, but I honestly think Iroh is a stronger Firebender and more strategic and wise. Kyoshi has been shown to do what she has to, at times.

I really thought about just taking the THREE Avatars on the list, Aang, Roku, and Kyoshi, along with Katara (every party needs a cleric - DnD reference), Sokka and possibly Ty Lee (one of the few non-benders shown to be able to disable a bender).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Okay, go time. I am a bit surprised that I'm the first one to include all three avatars in a list. In my opinion, they are easy auto-includes, so my first three positions are taken up by them. Having three defenders who are able to bend all four elements and the ability to go into the Avatar state is too good to pass up.

• Kyoshi → If I could only have a single defender, Kyoshi would be the way to go. I believe her to be the strongest iteration of the Avatar. Her separating the Kyoshi peninsula from the mainland is the single most impressive demonstration of bending ever depicted throughout the series. Moreover, she didn't even seem all that taxed while performing the feat; so it is reasonable to assume that it isn't even close to the peak of her abilities. Absolute raw power. Additionally, she is shown to have much more of a warrior's mindset as compared to Aang or Roku.
• Roku → While I believe Aang will eventually overtake him in terms of power, we never get to see Aang in his prime during the show. That means that for the context of this discussion, Roku is the second strongest character and as such, he is my second choice.
• Aang → While he is often a goofy kid, Aang's powers are not to be underestimated, especially by show's end. Most importantly though, he is a one man army when entering the Avatar state. In his Avatar state, we see him defeat the fire nation armada in a matter of minutes. We also see him defeat a Sozin's comet powered up Ozai. Easy choice.

With my first three picks, I think I have the three strongest characters on the board and a monopoly in terms of both air bending and the avatar state. Moving on, the next choice is a very simple one...

• Iroh → Iroh uniquely gives you a bit of everything. Firstly, he is one of the strongest characters in the show. Avatars aside, he would likely be favoured against just about every other combatant. Secondly, he is wise, savvy and an experienced general. The man has seen and survived war. As a bender, he is one of the few characters (alongside Aang and Zuko) who learned the purest form of fire bending directly from the dragons. He also uniquely provides your team a morale boost. It doesn't end there though, as he also brings two important skills to your team. He is one of three characters that have been shown to lightning bend (Iroh, Ozai, Azula) and one of three characters that can re-direct lightning (Iroh, Aang, Zuko)... he is also the only character shown to be able to do both! Lastly, after my team thumps the opposition, I can sit down with Iroh and have a nice cup of tea. Iroh is the jack of all trades, master of all.

Continuing my list, it would be easy to simply select the very strongest characters, but I've decided it is better to round out my roster in terms of secondary abilities. Luckily I don't have to sacrifice too much raw power to do so.

• Toph → Toph is an exceptional combatant, but she also brings two completely unique skills to the table. The first (and more important of the two) is her seismic sense, her ability to "see" with earth bending. What good is it to have the strongest team if the opposition secures the victory by stealthily taking me out before my team has had a chance to respond? With Toph in our group, potential ambushes are neutralized before they can be enacted. She can detect the otherwise hidden approach of enemies before anybody else can (as demonstrated by her ability to "see" ants scuttling across the grass in the dead of night). The only characters that could circumvent this ability would be skilled air benders, and I already have all three on my team. Her second unique skill is her ability to metal bend. With a town nearby, there will be metal that she can utilize for this purpose.
• Katara → Katara is also an extremely powerful character and one of the best water benders. However, once again it is her secondary skill that I am most interested in. The secondary skill in question is not her healing, which I feel will have limited use in such an engagement (as many encounters will be straight up lethal and she needs sufficient down time in safety to implement them anyways). While her healing is a nice perk, I have chosen her due to her bloodbending ability. As it stands there are two bloodbenders among the field, Katara and Hama. I believe it to be critical to at least have one of these two practitioners on my side. While the feat can only be achieved during a full moon (at least during the ATLA timeline, S1 Korra is a different case), it is an absolute game changer. The chance of having a night with a full moon is only about 1 in 30, but if it does occur and you have two bloodbenders standing against your team, it could be game over right there and then. Bloodbending is devastatingly effective, difficult to counter and very unexpected. Most characters have no experience with it and it can cripple the very best of fighters. I actually think it was one of the few missteps the show ever made, but that is a different story. So with my last choice, I take Katara as she was able to overcome Hama's bloodbending and beat her at her own game. Katara is also generally a stronger water bender, has healing and is physically superior.

So there you have it, my list:

• Kyoshi [master of all 4 elements, strongest character, avatar state, warrior's mindset]
• Roku [master of all 4 elements, second strongest character, avatar state]
• Aang [master of all 4 elements, third strongest character, avatar state]
• Iroh [the most well-rounded fire bender, lightning bending, lightning redirect, wisdom, experience, morale boost]
• Toph [one of the best earth benders, seismic sense/sight, metal bending]
• Katara [one of the best water benders, bloodbending, healing]

I do hate leaving Combustion Man on the enemy's side, as his ability is very strong, unorthodox and has great range. That said, my team is easily strong enough to take him out.


Alternative list. Here is a secondary list I came up with. This one is based purely on obtaining a monopoly (or near monopoly) on what I feel is the actual strongest element in a real scenario (bloodbending aside), earth bending. As it stands, there are only 6 earth benders among the group of characters we can select from: Kyoshi, Roku. Aang, Toph, Bumi and the Boulder.

The strategy is simple. Find the biggest hill available in the combat area and use it to create an unbreachable fort. Simply have your earth benders take you to the very center of the hill, creating a closed off cavern (periodically opened up for air) that is protected from all sides. Now, none of the other characters (except one, we'll get to that later) can get to you in any reasonable time frame. If they try to burrow their way to your defensive position, it would be suicide for them as your earth benders could easily close them off and kill them. If they try to starve/thirst you out, your team can go out and fight them just as they normally would, but you'd be completely safe during the battle. I did mention that there is one character who could potentially beat your defenses ... Combustion man. We've seen his focused attack cut through solid rock with extraordinary ease and speed. As such, I break my monopoly by trading one of my 6 earth benders for him. Which earth bender?... Easy, the Boulder. The Boulder is the dumbest character of the twenty, the weakest earth bender of the six and essentially comedic relief in the show. Now, as soon as my team is set, priority one is to assassinate the Boulder. Shouldn't be too hard as he is of low intelligence and I have 3 avatars, the two best earth benders and the ultimate sniper... Combustion man. So there it is, my alternative list (obviously I prefer my primary list detailed above):

• Kyoshi
• Roku
• Aang
• Toph
• Bumi
• Combustion man

 

[Just A Skink]

Okay, go time. I am a bit surprised that I'm the first one to include all three avatars in a list. In my opinion, they are easy auto-includes, so my first three positions are taken up by them. Having three defenders who are able to bend all four elements and the ability to go into the Avatar state is too good to pass up.

To be fair, I did use the three avatars in one of my lists. I agree, they seem like auto includes based on power and adaptability.

Additionally, I know you mention that the characters you pick will do all they can to protect you and the others all they can to kill you, but you still indicate that it is those SPECIFIC characters. I have a hard time accepting that any of the avatars (or other "good" characters) will preemptively assassinate another character. I'm not convinced that Katara would use her bloodbending again, other than to stop Hama.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Additionally, I know you mention that the characters you pick will do all they can to protect you and the others all they can to kill you, but you still indicate that it is those SPECIFIC characters. I have a hard time accepting that any of the avatars (or other "good" characters) will preemptively assassinate another character. I'm not convinced that Katara would use her bloodbending again, other than to stop Hama.

The idea was to setup the rules in such a way that allows us to compare characters and assemble teams based on their skills and abilities. I strongly believe that was the original intention of the exercise put forth by the creator of the original picture.

If we open the discussion to the idea of characters refusing to kill other characters, the whole thing falls apart. For example, if argue that Aang (or any of the other good characters) would not kill another character, then by the same logic, they would equally refuse to assassinate you or I. In which case, they have no place in our thought experiment. If we adopt that premise, then it would only make sense to assemble our protectors entirely from the bad guys, because the good guys won't kill us anyways.

Additionally, we have to make a lot of assumptions on who would kill and would not in any given circumstance. While that could be an intriguing topic to explore in its own right, it would utterly derail the power/ability analysis that I tried to set up. Given the right circumstances, most characters (and people) would kill, even if extremely reluctantly. Since the original picture does nothing to detail what is motivating the character to try to kill/protect us, we can simply imagine a scenario where they would be willing to do it. I acknowledge that people do exist with such resolve, devotion and will power to abstain from killing regardless of the circumstance, but they are extremely rare.

Interestingly, this is one of the central themes of the show as it pertains to Aang and Ozai. The show runners though gave Aang a very convenient last minute way out (taking away Ozai's ability to bend) rather than forcing him into making a very difficult decision. What would have Aang done if that overly convenient solution was not available to him? Would he kill Ozai if that was the only way to stop him? It's an intriguing question, one centering on Aang, who might be the closest thing to a pacifist from among our twenty combatants. Personally, I think forcing him to make that decision would have made for an even better end to the series.

I have a hard time accepting that any of the avatars (or other "good" characters) will preemptively assassinate another character

Kyoshi would.

 

[Scalenex]

Avatar the Last Air Bender and Legend of Korra are about character arcs more than they are about raw power or clever technique.

I think if you take his morality away, Aang would actually be a weaker fighter. To a lesser extant this applies to Zuko, Iroh, Katara, Bumi, Ty Lee and Toph.

For instance I don't think Ty Lee would be able to nullify benders chakras if her sense of spirituality if she didn't deeply want a non-lethal way to nullify benders. I am fond of the fan theory that Ty Lee and her sisters are actually a great grand daughter of an Air Bender that married a Fire person. She is big on spirituality and that is not a Fire Nation cultural trait. Her skin and hair is lighter than most other Fire Nation people. She is nimble and free spirited. It is possible she has a gazillion sisters because her family was hoping to produce an air bender.

It is also noted in Legend of Korra that Tenzen's wife might be related to the Ty family. The Ty Lee stuff is not related to the main thread but I find it interesting none the less.

If based on the parameters that EVERY character will stop at nothing in order to win, killing, sacrificing allies, blood bending, etc in order to complete their goals then I cannot picture a "best" team not including all three Avatars. You can argue about the other three members of the team until you are blue in the face. Maybe a case can be made to only include two avatars.

I think it would be more interesting to take the three avatars out and then debate who should be in the team of six. I have a lot more trouble making up my mind if the Avatars are out.

 

[Just A Skink]

The idea was to setup the rules in such a way that allows us to compare characters and assemble teams based on their skills and abilities. I strongly believe that was the original intention of the exercise put forth by the creator of the original picture.

If we open the discussion to the idea of characters refusing to kill other characters, the whole thing falls apart. For example, if argue that Aang (or any of the other good characters) would not kill another character, then by the same logic, they would equally refuse to assassinate you or I. In which case, they have no place in our thought experiment. If we adopt that premise, then it would only make sense to assemble our protectors entirely from the bad guys, because the good guys won't kill us anyways.

Additionally, we have to make a lot of assumptions on who would kill and would not in any given circumstance. While that could be an intriguing topic to explore in its own right, it would utterly derail the power/ability analysis that I tried to set up. Given the right circumstances, most characters (and people) would kill, even if extremely reluctantly. Since the original picture does nothing to detail what is motivating the character to try to kill/protect us, we can simply imagine a scenario where they would be willing to do it. I acknowledge that people do exist with such resolve, devotion and will power to abstain from killing regardless of the circumstance, but they are extremely rare.

Interestingly, this is one of the central themes of the show as it pertains to Aang and Ozai. The show runners though gave Aang a very convenient last minute way out (taking away Ozai's ability to bend) rather than forcing him into making a very difficult decision. What would have Aang done if that overly convenient solution was not available to him? Would he kill Ozai if that was the only way to stop him? It's an intriguing question, one centering on Aang, who might be the closest thing to a pacifist from among our twenty combatants. Personally, I think forcing him to make that decision would have made for an even better end to the series.


Kyoshi would.

Of course, I see your point based on the premise of the original post. Just an observation and opinion.

 

[Scolenex]

Okay, so my team would involve the three avatars because it would be silly not to have them.

Uncle Iroh because he is awesome. Piandao because he has a great name. Huu because he has the right attitude about pants.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I'm pretty confident Toph could beat any earth bender.

This is an interesting topic I've had discussions on in the past. Avatars aside, it would come down to either Toph or Bumi. No one else is even close. I'd say prime Toph (past the timeline of ATLA) would beat prime Bumi, but at the power levels we see from them during the show it would be a really great contest.

Toph's advantages:

• metal bending
• seismic sense
• creativity/improvisation

Bumi's advantages:

• more experienced / wiser
• can see
• physically superior (despite his age)

One way or another, it would be close. Environmental factors could play a role. Obviously if it took place in pitch black darkness, Toph would prevail. Conversely, if the battle occurred on a sandy surface, Bumi would easily win. Toph's seismic sense in place of vision is both and advantage and disadvantage.

We obviously see a lot more of Toph as she is part of our main group of heroes, so it's easy to have bias in favour of her. However, Bumi is not to be underestimated. The guy was able to earth bend using his face only. That demonstrates a rare level of mastery (Iroh did this as well). Additionally, there are two instances of insane earth bending in the show that are not given their proper due. One of these two, was performed by Bumi. After he battles Aang, he casually falls back into ground and pops up in a completely different location. He does it seemingly for fun, but if utilized properly, that is an immensely powerful skill (admittedly less so against Toph, as she could seismic sense is exact location at all times). Lastly, let's not forget that Bumi was a senior member of the Order of the White Lotus. Those guys are not to be taken lightly.

Not sure who would win 1 v 1, but it would be good.

Bumi could theoretically replace Sokka.

A good trade.

Piando could theoretically replace Iroh.

A very bad trade.

Roku has raw power exceeding all other characters on this list

Well... second.

Combustion Man is the only member not on my team that I would actually fear. I'm not very good at dodging attacks and I think he's the only one that could one-shot me before one of the benders on my team could bend something to block the attack.

I hear you on Combustion Man, he didn't make it on my primary list, but he would be hugely dangerous to have on the opposing side. I'd also say that Ozai and Azula should be characters that you should fear.

Of course, I see your point based on the premise of the original post. Just an observation and opinion.

It's an interesting question/premise. If our original rules/assumptions were re-worked it could make for a great discussion.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I might have asked you guys already, but @Killer Angel , @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and @Imrahil , have any of you watched Avatar: The Last Airbender? We'd love you guys to contribute to the topic, but as you haven't thus far, I'm guessing you haven't seen the show.

 

[Just A Skink]

I might have asked you guys already, but @Killer Angel , @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and @Imrahil , have any of you watched Avatar: The Last Airbender? We'd love you guys to contribute to the topic, but as you haven't thus far, I'm guessing you haven't seen the show.

@NIGHTBRINGER What do you think of Legend of Korra?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@NIGHTBRINGER What do you think of Legend of Korra?

A good question. I definitely think it is a huge step down as compared to ATLA. It's not a bad show, but ATLA is close to perfection. If ATLA is a 10 on a scale of 0-10, then The Legend of Korra is a 6 at best.

Some of the things I disliked about the Legend of Korra:

• the characters are far less likable, especially the central characters. I don't really root for any of them. The only notable exception is Varrick, who is pure gold.
• the story is far more disjointed. ATLA built better from season to season
• most of the humor didn't really hit home for me (Varrick being the exception once again)
• Korra, despite starting the show with 3 elements already mastered, comes off as incompetent. I can't count the number of times she entered the Avatar state only to get absolutely bodied by an opponent she should have defeated. When Aang entered the avatar state it was awe-inspiring, but when Korra did so she didn't seem all that powerful... just the plain old Korra with glowy eyes. Additionally (and in line with point one), she isn't a particularly likable protagonist.
• they took one of the few elements that I disliked in ATLA, namely bloodbending, and dialed it up to an eleven. It wasn't good in ATLA (though it was thankfully limited to a single episode), and it is worse in Korra. Additionally, I did not like the addition of the lava bending ability granted to the earth benders. I could see them manipulating lava that was already there, but not creating it. Lava feels like the amalgamation of earth and fire bending, so giving it to earth benders seemed arbitrary.
• the "spirit world" story lines feel over done and boring
• I enjoyed the setting/world of ATLA far more

Some of the things I liked about the Legend of Korra:

• Varrick was awesome and is interplay with Zhu Li was always fun
• Ming-Hua (the armless water bender) was a badass character. Additionally, I like the concept of their whole team (aside from the Lava bending)
• the animation, just like in ATLA, was solid
• there were some fun nods to classic characters, with Iroh and Toph especially standing out. (this could also be considered a weakness, as my favourite parts of the show revolved around old ATLA characters).

Ultimately, I had some fun watching the show, but it is far cry from the original. ATLA is my favorite show of all time, while Korra wouldn't even crack my top 50. I recommend ATLA to everyone who hasn't seen it, but I never do so for Korra. It's not bad, but it is far from great.


What about you? How did you feel about the show? How would you compare it to ATLA? Pros & cons? (same questions for @Scalenex )

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

EDIT: I think this discussion would be interesting if the avatars were blacked out since avatars are the most powerful people in the world. and there normally aren't more than one in at a time.

I think it would be more interesting to take the three avatars out and then debate who should be in the team of six. I have a lot more trouble making up my mind if the Avatars are out.

An excellent suggestion. I've already got my list 95% complete, just contemplating between one of two characters for my final slot.

 

[Killer Angel]

I might have asked you guys already, but @Killer Angel , @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and @Imrahil , have any of you watched Avatar: The Last Airbender? We'd love you guys to contribute to the topic, but as you haven't thus far, I'm guessing you haven't seen the show.

Indeed.
I am intrigued by it but atm i know too little to give a reasonable answer to your poll