I certainly agree GW by themselves are great at ballsing up opportunities, but the main reason for my increased trust in them this time is because the TOW team is also the one that worked with the Creative Assembly to develop the Warhammer: Total War franchise, and given that they really did Fantasy justice with that trilogy of games, I'm expecting them to do the same with TOW, as the game intended to be the one-stop shop for Warhammer: Total War fans to play their favourite game on the tabletop.
Just how many members of this CA team will be working on TOW? And what role will they be performing? These are very important considerations.
Yes we don't know if they're going to keep those armies, but it's not a dead cert that they will scrap them either, as there's still every chance that sheer common sense will prevail.
Of course we don't know, and therein lies the problem. There is no point in jumping on board with the new game until it is
confirmed that the armies we care about (whichever ones those may be) will be given
proper support. What is the logic in adopting a game based purely on a hope? What if I make the switch and they never bring the Chaos Dwarfs or Lizardmen fully on board? What if they instead excise them from the game like they did in AoS? GW has already set that very bad precedent and it wasn't even that long ago. Maybe they've learned their lesson as you have suggested, but until we know for certain, it's a bad gamble. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!"
I don't here
I personally am not a fan of Dogs of War at all, and couldn't care less about them being ditched and ignored. A cheesy concept that was limited to just a few individual unique Regiments of Renown units, which was replaced by the far superior mercenary mechanics in Triumph and Treachery that allowed you to take any Mercenary units you wanted from any army book. It also made Tilea easily one of the most boring settings in all of Warhammer, just a weaker version of the Empire with more infighting and none of the unique units (as all their fantastical units are named regiments from other factions) and no named characters that are really likeable or inspiring.
Fair enough, they're not for everyone. There are many people who absolutely love them (including a few members on Lustria Online). I think they are an "army" of endless creative possibilities. The modeling and sculpting potential is nearly limitless. Pirate Dwarfs, Undead Lizardmen or Skaven, Halflings, etc. Think of all the fun and beautiful models we see in Warhammer Underworlds; GW could give us something like that but on a much larger scale. An army with a mix of everything.
Again, it's not a priority for GW on their own, but I haven't heard any complaints about balance in Warhammer: Total War, and because the TOW team are midway between the two, there is still always hope.
Full disclosure, I have not played it myself. However, based on what I've watched on YouTube from top players, there are balance issues just the same. Both external balance issues between armies as well as internal ones between units.
Also, there is a very big difference between the Total War Warhammer video game and The Old World miniature game. They are completely different formats with unique challenges and gaming mechanics. They are also produced by two separate companies. Just because a few people who worked on Total War (who may have had zero influence on balance) will be working on TOW, doesn't mean that TOW will be balanced.
Forge World books as a whole are generally avoided in the Warhammer scene (or at least the scene of proper Warhammer, i.e. Fantasy and 40K up to 6th Edition) because they field units that are quite rightly seen as too big, OP and gamey for standard competitive play, mainly because the Forge World chaps always seemed to focus more on making things as powerful as they perceived them to be in lore than in balancing them with GW's armies and rules. The Legion of Azgorh list specifically was an exception made by tournaments and players purely out of desperation to find some Chaos Dwarf army rules that had even the vaguest mark of officiality on them.
Do you have evidence that the Legion of Azgorh was accepted by tournaments and players out of, as you present it,
desperation? That seems like an unsupported narrative choice you've concocted to support your argument. Maybe it was because it was a well-designed and well balanced army that added to the game. Maybe it was because everyone liked it. Maybe it was a mix of things. That is all just speculation though, but what we do know is that it was extremely widely accepted. Hence my argument that it was 95-99% official.
Also, if your argument is that most of the Forge World content is generally avoided by the "Warhammer scene", then what does that say about TOW, which will be exclusively produced by them?
If FW is so bad at writing balanced rules, why defend TOW so vehemently?
I'd certainly debate the artwork quality as being better than those of the proper army books. It's fine, I'm definitely not saying it's bad, but it's lacking in full-size battle scenes and other art that sees the Chaos Dwarfs (and Tamurkhan's horde) kicking arse in battle, the sort of artwork that is particularly inspiring for players.
I actually own the book and believe me it is top notch in terms of quality. The artwork throughout the book is stellar... better than in any of the other army books I own. More than that, it is cohesive, looking like it belongs together. It's not the ramshackled and largely recycled artwork that we see in the mainstay GW army books.
Additionally, the cover quality, paper quality, binding and general fit & finish are all superior.
As an aside, they're also worth a pretty penny, here are few (
sold) Ebay listings...
While it's better than nothing at all, it's still not as good as having a fully-dedicated Chaos Dwarf army book, because it's still a symbol of how GW weren't willing to give the army as much attention as the others.
I would agree with you here. I WOULD prefer to have a fully dedicated stand alone Chaos Dwarfs army book. But TOW isn't offering that. In fact, so far, TOW has outright said they have no plans or inclination to create such a thing.
As such, the more accurate comparison would be between the 8th edition Warhammer Proper - Tamurkhan Legion of Azgorh entry and TOW's legacy armies free rules pdf. In this case, 8th edition easily prevails.
And I don't see Fantasy players allowing the Tamurkhan WoC and Empire units as eagerly as the Chaos Dwarf ones
Of course not, because those are extra additions to already existing armies. Giving even more options to the solid (Empire) and top tier (WoC) armies. That's the same reason why I didn't like the combined Chaos, Elves and (to a lesser extent) Undead End Times armies. It makes them too strong (even if the additions were balanced, the extra variety/flexibility is advantageous). It's why I wouldn't consider Chaos Dwarf bolstered WoC army to be 95% official.
In the case of additions to full armies, it is always best to discuss it with your opponent. Most people would be fine seeing a War Mammoth on the table top as long as they were consulted prior to the game.
it'd be better to go for a fan-made supplement fully dedicated to your army instead, especially now that the game is lo longer supported and officiality no longer matters if there are opportunities for greater balance, a greater quantity of unit options and greater uniformity available.
Strongly disagree! A fan-made supplement is simply a house rule, and is completely unofficial. It will never be widely accepted by the gaming community. Even arguably the most successful fan-made army book series (Warhammer Armies Project) was only adopted by the smallest fraction of the player base.
There are simply too many things wrong with it:
- low adoption rate
- too many variants (whose fan fiction rules are we to use?)
- splintering of the player base (though largely negated by the low adoption rate)
- no guarantee that it will be more balanced than the original
- no guarantee that it will be more fun than the original... even if more balanced (The Ninth Age)
- generally of a lower quality in terms of presentation as compared to its officially published counterparts
I know you're really into custom rules and that you create your own, so I'm not trying to completely shit over it. If you find a group that wants to adopt it (or you simply like to make them for the fun of it... which I've done myself on a very limited scale with no intention of ever fielding it), then that is awesome. It can be a rewarding aspect of the hobby for you and you should continue with it. My criticism is entirely in regards to the suggestion that it be adopted on a wider scale by the wargaming community as a whole. I just don't see it ever happening. The vast majority of people will always choose to stick with the real stuff.
I notice you're still targeting my High Elves when Dark Elves, which you favour, and Warriors, which you play, are significantly worse in the broken-ness scale (and that you show no shame in fielding OP lists when you fancy anyway). The only really powerful aspects of High Elves are the Frostheart, which can be shot down, and the Banner of the World Dragon, which is useless against mundane shooting and is bypassed by The Curse of Anraheir. I use neither of these features of the army anyway because I despise gamey builds from any faction, including those I collect.
I could have just as easily picked the DE or the WoC (I had already mentioned the WoC filth level in the same post). Along with the HE, they form the unholy trinity of the most powerful armies.
Please don't try to present the HE as being less broken than the other two. The power level of the High Elves stems from a lot more sources than just the Frostheart and the Banner of the World Dragon. Solid leadership, movement, magic and close combat. Great unit selection. Shooting. Army wide ASF and fighting in extra ranks. Essentially 3++ unkillable Hortennse Phoenix Guard. White Lions. Swordmasters. One of the very best chaff units (Great Eagles). Book of Hoeth.
But you don't have to rely just on my opinion...
Dark Elves is the main one (where they got the Warriors resculpted into Dreadspears/Darkshards/Bleakswords, Dark Riders/Doomfire Warlocks, Witch Elves/Sisters of Slaughter, Hydra/Kharibdyss, Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine, Scourgerunner/Cold One Chariot, Fleetmaster, Black Guard/Har Ganeth Executioners and Shadowblade over two consecutive White Dwarfs, plus the Dreadlord/Sorceress on Black Dragon just over a year before) and Warriors of Chaos coming in second, with less models but also two White Dwarfs dedicated to them.
The Dark Elves release was admittedly pretty solid, although still outdone in terms of new centerpiece models. I do like the Witch Elves though. I'd give the CD the advantage, but only narrowly. In regards to the WoC, they got a lot of good stuff in 8th, but nowhere near to the level of the Chaos Dwarfs. They did receive awesome models like the Skullcrushers and chariots, but also sub par ones in the form the Forsaken and two mediocre monster variants. Every Legion of Azgorh model was stellar. Of course, there's no point in arguing aesthetics.
