AoS New Battletome, have dino lists gone extinct?

[Kilvakar]

So the new battletome does a lot of good things, but at least to me it seems to nerf our dino army lists, and Stegadons in particular, to the absolute ground.

But I'm not as experienced a player as a lot of my fellow Lustrians, so perhaps there are some things I'm missing. Is there any reason to play Thunder Lizards once the new book releases? Or are dino-heavy lists dead for the rest of this edition?

Engine of the Gods is complete garbage now, but thankfully it seems to be the only unit in the book for which that can be truly said. However, I can't really find any more ways to buff Stegadons, and don't see a reason to take them at 300 points. Trog is actually useful now, even without spell-bombing. Carnosaurs seem to have gotten at least marginally better, now having more reliable damage and slightly better survivability.

Does anyone see any merit in playing Thunder Lizards? Or attempting to run a lot of dinos in Koatl's Claw? Or even Dracothion's Tail? I'd be very interested to hear some theory-crafting on this while we wait for the release

 

[Acehilator]

Thunder Lizard is just bad all around. If there were more general rampages it could be funny with a wild "one of each" list, but as it stands, just no.

Engine is dead.
Steg Chief is dead.
Regular Stegs are overpriced.
Oldblood on Carno is a Saurus support piece.
Scar-Vet on Carno is... whatever.
Bastiladon with laser is barely worth it (but not really)

Leaves us with:
Bastiladon with snakes: great stuff
Troglodon: really interesting mixed bag of abilities, might be 10-20 points too expensive, but 100% playable.

 

[skinkyone]

Bastiladon with solar engine doesn't seem that bad to me. Its no longer as good as double firing chaff clearing but it has the power to remove tough units.

My main opponents are maggotkin and choas warriors though.

 

[Kilvakar]

Honestly both Bastiladons seem decent. The Solar Engine is no longer a chaff-clearer, but as people have pointed out it's going to be very good at helping crack 2+ save units with that -3 rend.

Ark of Sotek is actually useable now as it will be able to do a decent amount of mortal wounds with 20 dice, a 2+ save that doesn't bracket, and it's unique monstrous rampage will help it clear hordes.

Carnosaurs to me also seem much better. Before there was basically no reason to take them as they died too quickly and did no damage. Now they at least have decent rend and a bit of extra survivability and don't bracket as hard. Oldblood in particular is now actually a good choice to bring in a Saurus list but probably not in a Thunder Lizard list.

Stegadons of all types got nerfed to the ground. If not in stats, in point costs. 300 points for a basic Stegadon that kept it's profile essentially the same from the old book? This is just sad. And the Engine is literally useless right now. Why did they tout the "Stegageddon" list as the most awesome thing ever in the previous rulebook only to basically say "don't ever use these again!" in the new one?

Trog is actually good now too. But yeah, it seems that Thunder Lizard, which was the most played list previously, is completely dead. Typical GW to nerf what was good to the ground in an attempt to encourage people to stop using their dinos and start using all the new models

 

[Killer Angel]

Bastiladon with solar engine doesn't seem that bad to me. Its no longer as good as double firing chaff clearing but it has the power to remove tough units.

that would be his role, yes... but 3 shots at 4+/3+ is an awful profile, on average you are looking at 1 successful hit?
Its actual, real role, is points sink.

 

[PJetski]

it seems that Thunder Lizard, which was the most played list previously, is completely dead.

If you want to play Coalesced without going heavy Saurus/Kroxigors you can still run something like Slann + Chotecs + 2x Bastiladon + Troglodon. Bring an allied Frostheart Phoenix and you're looking at a tough monster mash list with -1 hit, -1 wound, and -1 damage.
It's not optimal, but it's far from dead.
Being able to Stomp and Sweep with a Bastiladon really helps offset their poor melee damage.

 

[Vallis]

Stegadons of all types got nerfed to the ground. If not in stats, in point costs. 300 points for a basic Stegadon that kept it's profile essentially the same from the old book? This is just sad. And the Engine is literally useless right now. Why did they tout the "Stegadon" list as the most awesome thing ever in the previous rulebook only to basically say "don't ever use these again!" in the new one?

The Stegadons may be over-priced, but points can be adjusted. As for the Engine of the Gods, it's not what it used to be, but it's not useless. It costs the same as a regular Stegadon and has the same stats and abilities, with these exceptions:

• Reg Steg counts as 10 models for contesting objectives.

• Reg Steg gets a Skystreak Bow or Sunfire Throwers instead of the EotG.

• Reg Steg is battleline in a Thunder Lizard list.

• EotG is a totem, so can issue commands from 18"

• EotG has the engine instead of the Skystreak Bow or Sunfire Throwers, which can heal ALL units within 6" D3 wounds 58% of the time every turn with no downside, or reliably every other turn, and if its healing is not needed, it might get off a powerful attack or other ability instead.

Stegadons excel in melee, but for the most part, I think of the Stegadon and Engine of the Gods as the same unit with a choice between the three configurations: Skystreak Bow for long range attacks, Sunfire Throwers for shorter range combat or Engine of the Gods for healing (usually to protect and heal the Slann, Astrolith Bearer and company, I imagine).

 

[Vallis]

.

 

[Vallis]

Oops. Technical difficulties.

 

[Kilvakar]

The Stegadons may be over-priced, but points can be adjusted. As for the Engine of the Gods, it's not what it used to be, but it's not useless. It costs the same as a regular Stegadon and has the same stats and abilities, with these exceptions:

• Reg Steg counts as 10 models for contesting objectives.

• Reg Steg gets a Skystreak Bow or Sunfire Throwers instead of the EotG.

• Reg Steg is battleline in a Thunder Lizard list.

• EotG is a totem, so can issue commands from 18"

• EotG has the engine instead of the Skystreak Bow or Sunfire Throwers, which can heal ALL units within 6" D3 wounds 58% of the time every turn with no downside, or reliably every other turn, and if its healing is not needed, it might get off a powerful attack or other ability instead.

Stegadons excel in melee, but for the most part, I think of the Stegadon and Engine of the Gods as the same unit with a choice between the three configurations: Skystreak Bow for long range attacks, Sunfire Throwers for shorter range combat or Engine of the Gods for healing (usually to protect and heal the Slann, Astrolith Bearer and company, I imagine).

True, points can definitely be adjusted and hopefully Stegadons will see a drop soon once people stop using them. Don't get me wrong, Stegadons still have good stats and they even got some minor but much-appreciated buffs. But the Engine is really not good. You need to *not* use it for at least 2 turns to have a decent chance of getting it's good abilities to work. And a slightly over 50% chance of getting a heal to everything wholly within 6" isn't worth the 300 points in my opinion. I could see using it as a defense for your caster castle but it's still over-costed for that role.

 

[Doons]

Engines have really been bothering me. As soon as i hear someone call a unit "garbage" i need to put it in an army and find uses. I'm the guy who added gorgers to his ogor army just to find a use. Talking old rule Gorgers that were pretty ugly{must deploy end of first movement} I ended up using them at them time in a kragnos list, cheap objective steal, extra impact hits from Kragnos roll3d6 charge. Engines hmmmmmmmm seems like the only way to get any kind of good probability percentages you need multi and have to delete turn one from your brain. Thinking cosmic ability 1 and 2 are the only ones reliable enough to abuse. Points are the killer need them to last 2-3 turns to justify 300 points each. Any thoughts

 

[Doons]

True, points can definitely be adjusted and hopefully Stegadons will see a drop soon once people stop using them. Don't get me wrong, Stegadons still have good stats and they even got some minor but much-appreciated buffs. But the Engine is really not good. You need to *not* use it for at least 2 turns to have a decent chance of getting it's good abilities to work. And a slightly over 50% chance of getting a heal to everything wholly within 6" isn't worth the 300 points in my opinion. I could see using it as a defense for your caster castle but it's still over-costed for that role.

The Stegadons may be over-priced, but points can be adjusted. As for the Engine of the Gods, it's not what it used to be, but it's not useless. It costs the same as a regular Stegadon and has the same stats and abilities, with these exceptions:

• Reg Steg counts as 10 models for contesting objectives.

• Reg Steg gets a Skystreak Bow or Sunfire Throwers instead of the EotG.

• Reg Steg is battleline in a Thunder Lizard list.

• EotG is a totem, so can issue commands from 18"

• EotG has the engine instead of the Skystreak Bow or Sunfire Throwers, which can heal ALL units within 6" D3 wounds 58% of the time every turn with no downside, or reliably every other turn, and if its healing is not needed, it might get off a powerful attack or other ability instead.

Stegadons excel in melee, but for the most part, I think of the Stegadon and Engine of the Gods as the same unit with a choice between the three configurations: Skystreak Bow for long range attacks, Sunfire Throwers for shorter range combat or Engine of the Gods for healing (usually to protect and heal the Slann, Astrolith Bearer and company, I imagine).

Engines have really been bothering me. As soon as i hear someone call a unit "garbage" i need to put it in an army and find uses. I'm the guy who added gorgers to his ogor army just to find a use. Talking old rule Gorgers that were pretty ugly{must deploy end of first movement} I ended up using them at them time in a kragnos list, cheap objective steal, extra impact hits from Kragnos roll3d6 charge. Engines hmmmmmmmm seems like the only way to get any kind of good probability percentages you need multi and have to delete turn one from your brain. Thinking cosmic ability 1 and 2 are the only ones reliable enough to abuse. Points are the killer need them to last 2-3 turns to justify 300 points each. Any thoughts

 

[Vallis]

Engines have really been bothering me. As soon as i hear someone call a unit "garbage" i need to put it in an army and find uses.

I'm not convinced that they're garbage. It's still a Stegadon, and it can heal itself, and that comes with a good amount of survivability. As I said, I see potential for it in the castle in a spell-casting army where it can threaten anyone that comes too close, and heal the Slann, Guard and Astrolith Bearer. Obviously that castle would cost a lot of points, so it would need to be in a large army and could be situational to the battleplan.

But if you take an Engine instead of a regular Stegadon, you're mostly doing it to heal itself same nearby friendlies. That's what you sacrificed the Skystreak Bow or Sunfire Throwers and counting as 10 models toward an objective for. Probably. So that means your using it when it will stay with a group of your other units. So I suspect it will typically be a tanky escort that can heal it's pals, boost the bravery of skinks, issue commands as a totem, do some melee damage, and if things go well, get off some offensive magic.

Remember, of you manage to pull off it's third power, Time Slows, which gives units within 6" strike-first, it still needs to be in a group to be effective.

 

[Vallis]

I feel like we need some numbers for the probabilities of succeeding with the Cosmic Engine powers to really discuss the Engine of the Gods. So I did the math. Here are my results:



Note that the numbers are rounded. The chance of successfully using Healing Light on the fifth round with power reserves of 4 isn't actually 100%. It will fail if you roll all ones on six dice, so the odds are only 46,655 in 46,656.

 

[Vallis]

Okay, I'm just starting to digest these numbers, but here's what I'm thinking so far. The Engine of the Gods will most often not get used in round 1, as it's too far away from the action. It puts a point of power in reserve. Round two, it has a 74% chance of succeeding with Bolts of Azure Energy (range: 24"). That's a little better than a spell with a casting value of 6 and no modifiers to the casting roll (72.2%), but it can't be unbound. With 1 power point in reserve, it's likely to do about 6 MW if it succeeds. That's better than Tide of Serpents (casting value 7, range 15") or Stellar Tempest (casting value 8, range 24"), both of which would only be likely to deal 6 MW if the target unit has 18 or more models. Against a 10 model unit, those spells would only do 3 MW typically. Bolts of Azure Energy should be better with 1 power point, of course, because it is only this good when used every other round. It can also do 1 MW to the Engine of the Gods if it fails (which you can heal later).

Using Bolts of Azure Energy every round is equivalent to succeeding on a spell with a casting value of 9 with no bonuses to casting (27.8%). But if it succeeds, it is still likely to do significant damage (5 MW average), because you will always have 9 dice to roll if it succeeds.

If you wait until round 3, and have 2 power in reserve, it is nearly certain to succeed (a bit better than equivalent to a casting value of 4), and would deal 7 or so MW. But you may not be using the engine efficiently if you didn't use it in the first two rounds.

 

[Vallis]

Okay, but we took the Cosmic Engine in place of Skystreak Bow or Sunfire Throwers, so how does Bolts of Azure Energy compare the those?

Bolts of Azure energy, if used every other round, has a 74.1% of succeeding, and is most likely to do 6 damage if it does. It comes to 4.4 wounds in two rounds, if you combine the two numbers.

Each attack from a Skystreak Bow has a 44.4% chance of doing damage if the target has no save, which is rare. Against a 4+ save, with its rend -1, each has a 29.6% chance. But at 3 damage a piece, against the 4+ save, it's likely to do 2.7 wounds each round. That's 5.4 wounds in two rounds, which does a bit better than Bolts of Azure Energy. But, there are some things to keep in mind. The bow's damage will be further reduced by opponents with tougher saves, whereas Bolts of Azure Energy will not be. Against a 3+ save, the bow will only do 4 damage on average in two rounds, but the Cosmic Engine will still do 4.4 on average. Also, if you roll very well, the bow can get up to 9 damage tops, while Bolts of Azure Energy, used every other round, could do as much as 18 MW (though that extreme amount would be very rare). Bolts of Azure Energy also gets stronger if not used for longer. The Skystreak Bow, of course, has more opportunities to be buffed, such as from an All Out Attack. Both the bow and the azure energy have a 24" range.

The Sunfire Throwers are difficult to compare. They have only an 8" range so the Steg needs to get in real close, and their damage output is increased as the number of models in the target unit that are in range increases. Against a unit of 5, it'll average 1.7 MW. Against 10, it averages 3.3 MW, and against 20, it averages 6.6 MW. Since we are looking at how much these do in two rounds, that's 3.3, 6.7 and 13.3 MW against each of those unit sizes, respectively. But those numbers are only if the entire unit is within 8". The Sunfire Throwers can outperform the Cosmic Engine and the Skystreak Bow in ideal circumstances, but doesn't compete in sub-optimal conditions.

All in all, Bolts of Azure Energy, the Skystreak Bow and the Sunfire Throwers have their strengths and weaknesses. There isn't a clear winner. I would tend to favor the bow for long-range damage output unless my opponent has a lot of high save units. But the Cosmic Engine is versatile. It's not limited to combat but can also be used potently to heal my troops. It's other abilities probably won't see much use, but there are situations where they might, so it's nice to have them in your back pocket. Summoning a unit of Saurus Warriors in round 3 (66.4% success chance with two power in reserve) could turn the tide in a battle. That's a 200 point unit, but since we didn't get it until the shooting phase of round 3, let's prorate it and call it a 100 point rebate off the cost of the Engine of the Gods if it succeeds.

 

[Doons]

So three EotG fit fully within each other's 6" bubble. Probably be able to fit two or three Spawn of Chotec in that bubble as well. Maybe be aim for going second with a starborne Dracothian's Tail hiding heroes behind a realm shaper right on the line, offering only skink msu for the opponents first turn decisions. Then plop the full health healing tank?They should be able to last one combat if losing priority? Doesn't leave many points for heroes, but 3d6 hits on cosmic ability two almost 75% time and three engines guarantees one hits 90% of the time. use healing ability for rest of battle? maybe skink gen with Nimble war leader 2d6 run? help! lol is this viable ? hide a terradon chief ,terradon riders, and a skink starpriest behind the realmshaper have only msu skins as targets. drop astrolith bearer,two spawn and three EotG all within the weird triangle shape made when overlapping the 6" bubbles
Dracothian's tail
*gen* Terradon Chief:
cmd: Nimble Warleader
Item: Sacred Stegadon Helm

Astrolith Bearer
Starpriest:
spell: Speed of Haunchi

3x EotG
2x Spawn of Chotec
4x (msu)skink
1x (msu) Terradon Riders

 

[Vallis]

Well, I think the Engine of the Gods is comparable to or better than a Stegadon. They are both over priced, but I'm sure they will come down in cost.

But if you compare the Stegs to the Bastiladon with Ark of Sotek, well the basti will do more damage in melee as the steg, has tougher armor and doesn't bracket for 200 points instead of 300. The steg has some other bonuses, like mortal wounds on charge and counts as 10 models for objectives, but it's not worth 50% more than the ark basti.

But the points will get adjusted.

 

[Kilvakar]

But the points will get adjusted.

They really need to be. Because right now there's no reason to take a Stegadon over the Ark of Sotek.

 

[PJetski]

They really need to be. Because right now there's no reason to take a Stegadon over the Ark of Sotek.

There are plenty of reasons: +3 Move, +2 Wounds, +3 bravery (and gives +3 to all SKINK nearby), strike last rampage in coalesced, counts as 10 on objectives, better melee damage, a decent shooting attack, SKINK keyword (Tepoks Beneficence)

Stegadons are a good unit... but they could come down 50p and be a great unit