Poll: Star Wars vs. The Lord of the Rings / The Hobbit

[Scalenex]

I think Tolkien's answer on eagle applies to "Why didn't Sam carry the ring the whole time?"

Or "Sam and Frodo this" and "Sam and Frodo that".

Hindsight is 20/20 and even smart people make mistakes.

In my opinion, if Legolas, Aragon, and Gimli make a large tactical blunder or overlook a basic aspect of adventuring, that's a big plot hole.

The hobbits are not seasoned warriors and adventurers, at least not initially. They are going to make more mistakes. I would be disappointed if the four hobbits made the most logically sound and tactically brilliant decisions every time. That would make them all Marty Stus (the male equivalent of a Mary Sue).

The Scouring of the Shire was not in the movie, and some Tolkien fans say they don't like that scene.

Recap, for those who have bad memories or only saw the movies.

So while Aragon, Gandalf and everyone else was having a victory celebration for the death of Sauron and were putting Gondor and Rohan back in order, Treebeard chose to let Sarumon and Wormtongue leave the tower (imprisonment is an alien concept to a tree and Treebeard believed Sarumon was toothless).

Sarumon (taking the alias "Sharkey), in a fit of spiteful vengeance, gathered about a hundred or so of remaining minions and conquered the Shire and started wrecking houses of hobbits who disobeyed him and also chopping down trees left and right for his foul industry.

Sam, Frodo, Merry, and Pippen had to liberate the Shire by themselves. This included raising a militia of hobbits. By this point, they were all seasoned veterans making tactical decisions and radiating inspiration to the other hobbits while intimidating the evil men they fought.

Sarumon's thugs basically cowed the hobbits with intimidation but obviously it didn't work on the four hero hobbits who radiated "We dealt with a lot scarier things than you".



But anyway, Sam and Frodo (and Merry and Pippen) did some dumbass crap that a seasoned veteran would not make.

That said, the hobbits made a bunch of decisions that an everyman character might do, but someone like Aragon or Gimli would not. Picking up the palantir, asking Treebeard to swing by Isengard, accepting Gollum even temporarily.

This is what it took to win, because these everyman actions confused the crap out of Sauron and Sarumon.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I can see your point, although it would be logical for Sam to take the ring over from Frodo and complete the job, there still is the fact that he is loyal to Frodo. His loyalty towards Frodo out-weight his desire to complete the goal himself.

that it was the defining feature of Sam and his goodwill in others that made Frodo carry the ring to the end.

@Imrahil : That feels to be a correct analysis of Sam. He was always in a subordinate position relative to Frodo. He was always serving and supporting him.

Well, you guys have done it. You've made me dislike Frodo even more. Not only did he fail at his one job (which he still did!), but he also had the effect of bringing down or inhibiting the greatness in those around him (Sam). Frodo did want the ring back from Sam, which is why Sam gave it to him... another failure on Frodo's part.

What an interesting debate...

But sadly diverting away from Star Wars, not on @NIGHTBRINGER 's watch!


We've been comparing the relative merits of Frodo, (prime) Bilbo and Sam as ring bearers, but I propose another....

Prime Yoda!

He is better in ever conceivable way.

• far wiser and more intelligent
• proven track record of being highly aware of and resistant to being corrupted
• can easily best any adversary that he might come across in middle earth
• even if Sauron did by chance did reacquire the ring, Yoda could best him too. I mean, if an injured Isildur with a broken sword could do it, then a highly trained Jedi Grandmaster with both the force at his disposal and a lightsaber could accomplish the task with absolute ease!

Another Jedi that could have carried the ring was Mace Windu. Windu's fighting style, Form VII - Vaapad, allows the user to channel both his and his opponent's darkness without succumbing to it. Windu is the only one to have truly mastered it (and it is also the reason why he is said to have been able to defeat Sidious). He can harness and use the darkside without falling prey to it. This should largely inoculate him against the rings influence.

Spoiler: course language

 

[Scalenex]

If it makes you feel any better, Sam got to marry the love of his life, have a bunch of kids, and be elected mayor seven terms.

Frodo nursed his PTSD while writing his memoirs in his big empty hole in the ground before being packed onto a ship and shipped out to spend eternity with arrogant strangers.

 

[VampTeddy]

If it makes you feel any better, Sam got to marry the love of his life, have a bunch of kids, and be elected mayor seven terms.

Frodo nursed his PTSD while writing his memoirs in his big empty hole in the ground before being packed onto a ship and shipped out to spend eternity with arrogant strangers.

Didn't Frodo also get his life shortened by aforementioned nazgul blade meaning he'd live a shorter hobbit life surrounded by practical immortals. Sad fate if you think about it, doomed to make the elves around him in "heaven" sad.

Prime Yoda!

He is better in ever conceivable way.

• far wiser and more intelligent
• proven track record of being highly aware of and resistant to being corrupted
• can easily best any adversary that he might come across in middle earth
• even if Sauron did by chance did reacquire the ring, Yoda could best him too. I mean, if an injured Isildur with a broken sword could do it, then a highly trained Jedi Grandmaster with both the force at his disposal and a lightsaber could accomplish the task with absolute ease!

Another Jedi that could have carried the ring was Mace Windu. Windu's fighting style, Form VII - Vaapad, allows the user to channel both his and his opponent's darkness without succumbing to it. Windu is the only one to have truly mastered it (and it is also the reason why he is said to have been able to defeat Sidious). He can harness and use the darkside without falling prey to it. This should largely inoculate him against the rings influence.

I'd argue that windu was one of the more neutral jedi of the order, hence probably as you predict a great carrier of the ring. His emotions seemed to mostly resonate with his duty rather than the good or evil of what was happening.

I'd argue with you on Yoda, except against Gandalf, who seem to have the thickest plot armour available to any character ever. I do also think their relative power to one another is even ish, but Gandalf is practically so plot armoured it protects those around him. Yoda was capable of defeat, Gandalf when defeated came back stronger. Even as I realize this I like star wars more, and lotr less.

Another excellent ring carrier would be Qui Gon Jinn, of the Jedi he was one of the most level minded and foreseeing. He achieved the ability to transcend mortality and become a force echo because he was so intrinsically bound to the flow off and mind of the force. He seemed to follow the will of the Force more closely than the rest of the Jedi, relying on it's will, rather than that of the order. I think he would have been able to carry the ring safely to Mordor, just as he was post-humously able to carry Anakin into Padawanship, by not being clouded by prejudice or malice but simply doing, what was meant to be done.

On the topic of Qui Gon, is it not possible, that because he felt the force the way he did, and followed it the way he did, he was, subconsciously or (i'd like to think) consciously a tool that was meant to bring Anakin into the Jedi order to destroy it. He might have hoped there was hope for the order, but i think it could be assumed that the force wanted Anakin to be found at an age too old, and it wanted him to fall, and that it knew that Qui Gon Jinn was the only Jedi that would bring that reality by defying the council. He also always seemed so at ease in the moment of his death to me, very much like when Obi is killed in IV, it seems planned, like he knew it had to happen.

Also, i might just be ascribing too much to these stories altogether.

 

[Killer Angel]

Just because we're talking about it...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I'd argue with you on Yoda, except against Gandalf, who seem to have the thickest plot armour available to any character ever. I do also think their relative power to one another is even ish, but Gandalf is practically so plot armoured it protects those around him. Yoda was capable of defeat, Gandalf when defeated came back stronger. Even as I realize this I like star wars more, and lotr less.

If we cast aside plot armour, I think Yoda is the clear winner.

Gandalf isn't all that great of a wizard. His spells, for the most part are pretty mediocre (nothing like we'd see in the Harry Potter universe for instance). In combat, Yoda's force abilities easily trump Gandalf's magic.

For the majority of time in LOTR, when faced with enemies, Gandalf engages them in melee combat. He fights well enough (against canon fodder), while Yoda on the other hand is a near unstoppable force (and we're seeing him far outside of his physical prime). Only Sidious was able to match up against him. Yoda is many times quicker than Gandalf and a far more elusive target due to his size, speed, agility, acrobatics and force augmented reaction time. His lightsaber is also a game changer. It will cut through any and all of Gandalf's weapons.

Also, consider what universe each of the exist in. Yoda has to deal with ships, blasters, droids, technology, etc. The mighty game chaning eagles from LOTR would near useless in the Star Wars universe. So Yoda, survives and excels in a much more hostile and lethal environment. Middle Earth would pose no threat.

 

[VampTeddy]

Gandalf isn't all that great of a wizard. His spells, for the most part are pretty mediocre (nothing like we'd see in the Harry Potter universe for instance). In combat, Yoda's force abilities easily trump Gandalf's magic.

Gandalf has used Magic multiple times in books and movies, and i think it's generally underplayed how much power he has. That said, you're correct, Harry Potter magic seems stronger, especially forbidden beasts (adult) Harry magic.

I also forgot about the specifics of Gandalfs actual magic, and the elements he "controls". Lightning Yoda (and any Jedi really) has shown aptitude for defending against, fire simply seems to slow of an element to catch him, and ice has the same problem as fire not to mention that Jedi should be able to stick to their feet on a sheet of ice considering their training.

Just to come with some sort of argument for poor LotR and Gandalf (someone has to), Gandalf would win in an attrition war assuming Eru still believed he was fighting for his purpose, ONLY because he would come back everytime Yoda killed him so he could wait him out over some 30-40 years. I mean really. It's a futile argument.

I give in.

I'd even go as far as to say most of the Jedi in Star wars should defeat Gandalf except maybe for the two knights Windu brought to fight Sidious that were instantly killed, and they might still stand a chance.

I even considered the Balrog fight for a second. But Obi, a comparably weaker Jedi than Yoda, and a young Anakin beat equally fierce beasts in the Geonesian arena, and it took way less than ten days (unless the movie skipped a lot in time during that arena scene).

GO YODA!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Gandalf has used Magic multiple times in books and movies, and i think it's generally underplayed how much power he has. That said, you're correct, Harry Potter magic seems stronger, especially forbidden beasts (adult) Harry magic.

I also forgot about the specifics of Gandalfs actual magic, and the elements he "controls". Lightning Yoda (and any Jedi really) has shown aptitude for defending against, fire simply seems to slow of an element to catch him, and ice has the same problem as fire not to mention that Jedi should be able to stick to their feet on a sheet of ice considering their training.

Just to come with some sort of argument for poor LotR and Gandalf (someone has to), Gandalf would win in an attrition war assuming Eru still believed he was fighting for his purpose, ONLY because he would come back everytime Yoda killed him so he could wait him out over some 30-40 years. I mean really. It's a futile argument.

I give in.

I'd even go as far as to say most of the Jedi in Star wars should defeat Gandalf except maybe for the two knights Windu brought to fight Sidious that were instantly killed, and they might still stand a chance.

I even considered the Balrog fight for a second. But Obi, a comparably weaker Jedi than Yoda, and a young Anakin beat equally fierce beasts in the Geonesian arena, and it took way less than ten days (unless the movie skipped a lot in time during that arena scene).

GO YODA!

Gandalf lost to Saruman. Sarumon was no match against Yoda...

 

[VampTeddy]

Gandalf lost to Saruman. Sarumon was no match against Yoda...

In Gandalf's, who would stil lose, defense, when he lost to Saruman, he had not yet lost his body to the balrog. After he died, Eru brought him back, and as the only truly purposeful maiar at the time, more of his true power was unlocked. Gandalf was shackled to only do as much to interfere with the lives of mortals and the realm of middle earth. From what I double checked to have just a wee argument for a duel against a jedi his true power in the realms beyond the sea would be even greater.

His own words were that he did not believe himself stronger than Sauron and he was not sure he could beat the witch king, but after his death, when he became the white, he at least did have more power than Saruman.

Just trying to defend the man a little bit, because in the expanded lore, his power is rather complicated. Does that make him stronger than most Jedi.

No.

 

[Scalenex]

I believe Yoda would have zero power in Middle Earth because of a lack of midichlorians and Gandalf would have zero power in the Star Wars galaxy because of a lack of Maiar, so the argument of who is more powerful is moot.

I still hold to the notion that Gandalf and Saruman are not wizards in the sense that we think of "wizards" or even "space wizards." They are angels or gods.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I believe Yoda would have zero power in Middle Earth because of a lack of midichlorians

But the midichlorians are inside him. They are a part of him. When you pluck him out of the Star Wars universe and into Middle Earth the midiclorians come with him.

It's besides the point anyways. We're analyzing their relative abilities as they are traditionally exhibited.

 

[Scalenex]

It's besides the point anyways. We're analyzing their relative abilities as they are traditionally exhibited.

Okay, by all means continue having your fascinating discussion.

 

[VampTeddy]

I believe Yoda would have zero power in Middle Earth because of a lack of midichlorians and Gandalf would have zero power in the Star Wars galaxy because of a lack of Maiar, so the argument of who is more powerful is moot.

I still hold to the notion that Gandalf and Saruman are not wizards in the sense that we think of "wizards" or even "space wizards." They are angels or gods.

I think we discussed it enough for now anyways. And you're correct in that the comparison is moot from the differences of universes although, i did enjoy it.

And you're right about the God/Angel argument. I'd argue they were Demi-gods in the "near god" range with potential for promotion. It's just easier to clutch the first descriptor i learned about them - them being wizards and therefore underselling them.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

LOTR holding onto the narrowest of margins. I wonder if it is because Lustria Online is a fantasy based forum (with LOTR heavily influencing Warhammer). People into WHFB or AoS might lean more towards Fantasy than Science Fiction. Would it be any different on a 40k forum? In the general public? Perhaps... perhaps not.

 

[Killer Angel]

LOTR holding onto the narrowest of margins. I wonder if it is because Lustria Online is a fantasy based forum (with LOTR heavily influencing Warhammer). People into WHFB or AoS might lean more towards Fantasy than Science Fiction. Would it be any different on a 40k forum? In the general public? Perhaps... perhaps not.

That's a fair doubt.
I tend to believe that yes, in a different forum SW would have the lead (albeit by an similar small margin)

 

[Scalenex]

I'm not sure a 40K forum would lean Star Wars.

I BID YOU STAND, VIEWERS OF THE WEST!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I'm not sure a 40K forum would lean Star Wars.

I'm not sure either.

I do think Star Wars is still the more popular franchise among the general public, although it's speculation at best as I have no supporting data.

The LOTR fan base did handle it brilliantly. Two important things of note though:

1. They had the benefit of hindsight. They already saw what happened to Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc.
2. From the Star Wars debacle arose the Fandom Menace

 

[VikingRage]

LOTR holding onto the narrowest of margins. I wonder if it is because Lustria Online is a fantasy based forum (with LOTR heavily influencing Warhammer). People into WHFB or AoS might lean more towards Fantasy than Science Fiction. Would it be any different on a 40k forum? In the general public? Perhaps... perhaps not.

Star Wars is fantasy too though? Just happens to be set in space with laser swords.

It's a Good vs Evil story following the journey of a seemingly insignificant person, with the potential of greatness, work/bumble their way through a series of trials that forge them into the being that can capitalize on being in the right place at the right time. Classic traditional fantasy shtuff .


Also, Yoda would probably bring his midichlorians with him, but into a universe that would potentially be silent to their call. To my understanding midichlorians are the conduit through which the lifeforce of the universe flows, and without midichlorians pervading everthing around it already, I wouldn't assume that Jedi powers would last long in a world without them. But if you retcon that prequel retcon it gets easier to have that conversation. (Midichlorians were a mistake that rarely ever gets mentioned again by the writers of Star Wars for good reason).