AoS NEW *rumor*

[Killer Angel]

1)
Skink priest +30?!? really?
it's an increase of 33%. This is not an adjustment. Do you roll the points cost at random, right?

2)
Slann 285.
Yeah, the slann is nice and strong, is the staple of basically all our builds. He's still a pure caster with just a +1 that needs additional investment (guards) to not be blown away in T1-2... and that does only that. because in melee he's toast.
so yeah, it was already overcosted but we need to use it... do you realize it costs as a Terrorgheist?!?

3)
+15 pts to astrolith bearer... if we want to field it, it's just another tax we pay to buff our already overcosted Slann / Kroak. thanx really, more than 500 pts for our magical phase (and only that) was clearly an offender to your "balance"

 

[VikingRage]

i would like to say "enjoy", but there's really nothing to be happy about.

points changes

for us:

View attachment 123137

some changes are really senseless.

Beat me to it. I feel like the priest needs a couple more wounds before you pump him up that high, blegh. Kinda what I expected to see after the first meta video from GW. They started talking about seraphon and trailed off like they were uncomfortable.

Astrolith Bearer bump is fair I feel, I use it in a lot of my lists, even if only for rhe ward save.

Carnosaurs just need a new warscroll imho. Trog is only another 10-points away from being decent!

 

[Jason839]

All my lists are 100-150 pts over now. I can no longer afford to take the Krond in any list. Probably wont get to play it again. And then endless spells went up some again too, Really frustrating.

 

[cyberhawk94]

Still no fix to Koatl's Claw, which is so simple I cant believe it hasn't happened. Subfaction was destroyed by the 3rd edition changes but its still "technically" functional (even though you get 3-4 different sources of +1 to hit and an anti-synergistic artefact) so they wont fix it

 

[Canas]

1)
Skink priest +30?!? really?
it's an increase of 33%. This is not an adjustment. Do you roll the points cost at random, right?

2)
Slann 285.
Yeah, the slann is nice and strong, is the staple of basically all our builds. He's still a pure caster with just a +1 that needs additional investment (guards) to not be blown away in T1-2... and that does only that. because in melee he's toast.
so yeah, it was already overcosted but we need to use it... do you realize it costs as a Terrorgheist?!?

3)
+15 pts to astrolith bearer... if we want to field it, it's just another tax we pay to buff our already overcosted Slann / Kroak. thanx really, more than 500 pts for our magical phase (and only that) was clearly an offender to your "balance"

I mean, essentially this update just boils down to "we nerf your core-models, so all your lists are more expensive".
It doesn't really matter if those core-models are actually the problem or not, since its focused on the core models it'll nerf all the "problematic" lists, and there's no easy way to avoid the nerfs, since you can't really replace coremodels like a slann with anything else.

Skink priest is probably the single worst example of this. A 30 point nerf to a model with 0 combat presence, 0 survivability, and support abilities that only really start to become valuable in a 300+ point combo. The nerf is purely there to nerf the combo, but it also means the skink priest itself has become even worse than it already was as an individual model.

 

[VikingRage]

I mean, essentially this update just boils down to "we nerf your core-models, so all your lists are more expensive".
It doesn't really matter if those core-models are actually the problem or not, since its focused on the core models it'll nerf all the "problematic" lists, and there's no easy way to avoid the nerfs, since you can't really replace coremodels like a slann with anything else.

Skink priest is probably the single worst example of this. A 30 point nerf to a model with 0 combat presence, 0 survivability, and support abilities that only really start to become valuable in a 300+ point combo. The nerf is purely there to nerf the combo, but it also means the skink priest itself has become even worse than it already was as an individual model.

If it stays like this, we will really just need a new book. Not because our army as a whole is unfunctional, but because if the game designers want our army to work like a different machine, they need to show us what that new machine is.

I am and will still be having fun with my dinos no matter what they do though!

 

[Jason839]

Its the typical GW approach to balance. Bad models get cheaper in the hopes that people will take them and good models get pricier in the hopes that they go away. This way they don't have to spend time changing rules and doing actual balancing.

 

[Killer Angel]

Its the typical GW approach to balance. Bad models get cheaper in the hopes that people will take them and good models get pricier in the hopes that they go away. This way they don't have to spend time changing rules and doing actual balancing.

The balance in 40k 9th edition is a mile better than AoS.
Knowing 40k, it's impressive.

 

[VikingRage]

The balance in 40k 9th edition is a mile better than AoS.
Knowing 40k, it's impressive.

Yeah, credit where it is due, the 40k community was putting AoS up as the poster child of balance last winter through late spring. The top 3 40k factions were sitting on a 69-78% overall win rate at the time. Since then they have tightened it up to where it has it's best game balance in many many years.

 

[Just A Skink]

i would like to say "enjoy", but there's really nothing to be happy about.

points changes

for us:

View attachment 123137

some changes are really senseless.

GW increased the Oldblood & Troglodon at the start of 3rd (now dropping it back down). Meh.
GW increased the Salamanders. Ouch, but Starborne will work around it.
GW increased the Solar Engine Bastiladon. No problem, some lists even shifted to the Ark.

But, GW finally hit us where it hurts... the Slann(s). +20 points. :/

Sigh... I was sad to see such point increases. Well, GW wants to bring down our win rate and this will probably help that notion. No doubt Seraphon players will just work around the point change as well. But it still smacks of a "pendulum swing" change. Plus, I hate to see the EotG go up +20, and the Skink Priest +30? I do love that EotG, but it's pretty pricey now. The Priest is... not that tough, but he does have a useful ability and command ability.

Oldblood on Carno is closer to possibly, maybe seeing play. Trog still sitting pretty... on my shelf.

 

[Dread Saurian]

Still no fix to Koatl's Claw, which is so simple I cant believe it hasn't happened. Subfaction was destroyed by the 3rd edition changes but its still "technically" functional (even though you get 3-4 different sources of +1 to hit and an anti-synergistic artefact) so they wont fix it

What are you even remotely talking about? Koatls works fantastic right now and you can argue that it works better than TL in the right hands. The Artifact is made for a carno. The subfaction is meant for saurus. And it works. Pretty fuckin well tbf.

 

[PabloTho]

What are you even remotely talking about? Koatls works fantastic right now and you can argue that it works better than TL in the right hands. The Artifact is made for a carno. The subfaction is meant for saurus. And it works. Pretty fuckin well tbf.

Wait... what are YOU talking about? A quick look at the data shows that the three other subfactions outperform KC. Not to mention it's patently clear that KC was designed for second edition, when command stacking was possible.

Also, the subfaction being meant for Saurus is part of the issue, seeing as they do very little that can't be accomplished more efficiently with Skinks. Knights aren't a bad unit, but bear in mind you can replicate the key benefit of Koatl's Claw by simply using a command point for all-out attack...

 

[Dread Saurian]

Wait... what are YOU talking about? A quick look at the data shows that the three other subfactions outperform KC. Not to mention it's patently clear that KC was designed for second edition, when command stacking was possible.

Not to mention to mention that the subfaction being meant for Saurus is part of the issue, seeing as they do very little that can't be accomplished more efficiently with Skinks. Knights aren't a bad unit, but bear in mind you can replicate the key benefit of Koatl's Claw by simply using a command point for all-out attack...

That's not the point of running koatls. It's for what they do for knights and such. Oh no the subfaction command point is all out attack.(shrugs) you now get to flavor your command point usage. boom! Shackalacka! Style points! (Hip thrust)
Hell There was even a koatls list that just won a GT recently

 

[Jason839]

Wait... what are YOU talking about? A quick look at the data shows that the three other subfactions outperform KC. Not to mention it's patently clear that KC was designed for second edition, when command stacking was possible.

Not to mention to mention that the subfaction being meant for Saurus is part of the issue, seeing as they do very little that can't be accomplished more efficiently with Skinks. Knights aren't a bad unit, but bear in mind you can replicate the key benefit of Koatl's Claw by simply using a command point for all-out attack...

Not disagreeing, but most recently KC had a big win. According to BCP Dean Bilz used it to place first at the US Open Chicago.

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Koatl's Claw
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs
- Triumphs:
Slann Starmaster (265)*
- Artefact: Itxi Grubs
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)*
- General
- War Spear
- Command Trait: Dominant Predator
- Artefact: Eviscerating Blade
- Mount Trait: Beastmaster
Skink Starpriest (130)**
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starseer (145)**
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Celestant-Prime, Hammer of Sigmar (325)*
- Allies
5 x Saurus Guard (115)**
10 x Saurus Knights (220)***
- Lances
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Saurus Knights (110)***
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)***
- Lances
5 x Chameleon Skinks (115)**
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (250)**
*Command Entourage - Magnificent
**Battle Regiment
***Bounty Hunters

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 325 / 400
Wounds: 102
Drops: 7

This list is also no longer valid due to pts changes, but it was enough to 5-0 and get first.

 

[VikingRage]

Not disagreeing, but most recently KC had a big win. According to BCP Dean Bilz used it to place first at the US Open Chicago.

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Koatl's Claw
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs
- Triumphs:
Slann Starmaster (265)*
- Artefact: Itxi Grubs
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)*
- General
- War Spear
- Command Trait: Dominant Predator
- Artefact: Eviscerating Blade
- Mount Trait: Beastmaster
Skink Starpriest (130)**
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starseer (145)**
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Celestant-Prime, Hammer of Sigmar (325)*
- Allies
5 x Saurus Guard (115)**
10 x Saurus Knights (220)***
- Lances
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Saurus Knights (110)***
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)***
- Lances
5 x Chameleon Skinks (115)**
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (250)**
*Command Entourage - Magnificent
**Battle Regiment
***Bounty Hunters

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 325 / 400
Wounds: 102
Drops: 7

This list is also no longer valid due to pts changes, but it was enough to 5-0 and get first.

That's not the point of running koatls. It's for what they do for knights and such. Oh no the subfaction command point is all out attack.(shrugs) you now get to flavor your command point usage. boom! Shackalacka! Style points! (Hip thrust)
Hell There was even a koatls list that just won a GT recently

I think the issue here isn't whether Koatl's Claw *can* be successful, so much as how balanced it is against the other subfactions in our book, and how well it reflects the rules in AoS3 vs AoS2.

As an average, KC has a much lower win rate into most of the meta compared to other subfactions. They *did* win a GT recently, but I feel like a lot of that has to be attributed to Dean Bilz's skill at running his list, and definitely a little luck in who he was matched against. If we see a general uptick in Koatl's Claw win rates over the next month, then that argument will hold better water, but until we see that one win does not a strong army make *shrug*

I am still building me a KC army right now, woop woop!

 

[Just A Skink]

I have to say the point changes are making 1000pt lists tough for me.

 

[Putzfrau]

The balance in 40k 9th edition is a mile better than AoS.
Knowing 40k, it's impressive.

I'm not sure if that's actually statistically accurate, and hasn't been what i've seen in practice. AoS event podiums are extremely varied, while 40k events are... not. That might be for reasons beyond just inherent balance, but it still seems to be the case.

 

[Putzfrau]

I think the issue here isn't whether Koatl's Claw *can* be successful, so much as how balanced it is against the other subfactions in our book, and how well it reflects the rules in AoS3 vs AoS2.

As an average, KC has a much lower win rate into most of the meta compared to other subfactions. They *did* win a GT recently, but I feel like a lot of that has to be attributed to Dean Bilz's skill at running his list, and definitely a little luck in who he was matched against. If we see a general uptick in Koatl's Claw win rates over the next month, then that argument will hold better water, but until we see that one win does not a strong army make *shrug*

I am still building me a KC army right now, woop woop!

Doing well should always be attributed to the pilot, but it also should mean that the list/subfaction/whatever isn't as bad/unusable/notcompetitive as the community thinks.

Point changes will change almost nothing. Lists that were running kroak, astro, priest and engine are going up 85 points, which is a single skink unit and your triumph bid. Kroak, engine, slann still criminally undercosted for what you get. Priest feels right at 130. Would have preferred just making sunstone a prayer, but /shrug.

 

[cyberhawk94]

What are you even remotely talking about? Koatls works fantastic right now and you can argue that it works better than TL in the right hands. The Artifact is made for a carno. The subfaction is meant for saurus. And it works. Pretty fuckin well tbf.

The artifact that was designed in 2.0 and now turns off one of the warscroll abilities of every single saurus hero was "made for a carno"? Its a decent artefact, but its anti-synergistic to the point of frustration.

That's not the point of running koatls. It's for what they do for knights and such. Oh no the subfaction command point is all out attack.(shrugs) you now get to flavor your command point usage. boom! Shackalacka! Style points! (Hip thrust)
Hell There was even a koatls list that just won a GT recently

Yes, I love to bring a subfaction that lets me "flavor" my generic command ability over one that allows two of the best units in the book to nearly double their effectiveness.

The fact is that +1 to hit on the charge is a nearly irrelevant bonus with 3.0's AoA, considering we have such easy access to CP, having two saurus units charge in the same turn is rare (with 8" move its more common for them to be charged), and even the one time per game the extra unit having +1 to hit / being able to AoD on the charge is relevant, thats not as good as +2 wounds on the 2-3 monsters were usually running, and being able to roll the EotG twice or double shoot a bastilidon.


Its just annoying to me that they clearly designed the entire saurus side of the book around stacking command abilities, immediately changed the game so that was no longer possible, and have the easy answer of making their subfaction +1 to wound instead and wont do it. At least then a lore-accurate saurus army wouldn't have 4 separate sources of +1 to hit

 

[VikingRage]

Doing well should always be attributed to the pilot, but it also should mean that the list/subfaction/whatever isn't as bad/unusable/notcompetitive as the community thinks.

Point changes will change almost nothing. Lists that were running kroak, astro, priest and engine are going up 85 points, which is a single skink unit and your triumph bid. Kroak, engine, slann still criminally undercosted for what you get. Priest feels right at 130. Would have preferred just making sunstone a prayer, but /shrug.

I think you and I are agreeing? I definitely think KClaw is not a trash/unusable army, but like I said, I just think it is just too early to assume it will consistanly be able to place 5-0 with any regularity (fingers crossed though). Meta is an ever changing thing, and tournament players can tend to shift towards the stronger subfactions, so there is a chance that we will see a higher volume of competitive players shifting to play KC in the coming tournaments and time will tell after that (again, fingers crossed).

And I am definitely disappointed that we didn't see battletome/warscroll changes that would help tone down, or more importantly boost up, some of the internal balance in many armies (I want to want to run eternity wardens and ripperdactyls). I really don't think point changes to units that are used in all subfactions will be an efficient way to fix internal balance and the issues that skew the balance so far in the wrong direction.

I do think point changes are effective at *helping* control unit spamming specifically.

I do think that the skink priest needs 1-2 more wounds to go with a price hike, but I used to run two of them when they were dirt cheap; sending out 4 buffs, and getting free prayers each on top of all that. S.T.E.A.L. that's what it was. A hero that deals out 2 meaningful buffs with 5 wounds for 130, or 6 wounds for 135-140 feels right. It will still die to just about anything, but it would need a little bit more than casual fire to do it.