AoS New Lord Kroak - is he any good?

[Dreamkeeper]

So what do you guys think about new Lord Kroak. I've been thinking about buying him, but kinda hesitant because of Dead for Innumerable Ages rule. I don't want to buy a gorgeous, but useless model, just for it to sit on the shelf and waiting till GW fixes it (Realmshaper Engine vibes)
Do you have any experience playing with or against him?

 

[Erta Wanderer]

is he any good

 

[Tyranitar]

Unfortunately I think we're better off just running a normal slann instead. For 165 points we get an additional +1 to cast/unbind, 1 extra cast/unbind, slightly better CA, celestial deliverance, a very hard to rate "defensive?" ability, and added utility of knowing the entire slann lore. The thing is a normal slann will be able to get the job done in the magic phase against the majority of opponents so I think the extra +1 to cast and extra cast/unbind is overkill in most cases. Celestial deliverance is much less useful without the added range of balewind, I don't think you'll get great mileage out of it until turn 2-3. Dead for Inumerable Ages is a terribly designed rule, and from a "competitive" standpoint is too much of a liability imo. Knowing the entire slann lore would be better if the slann lore was actually good. There's a couple niche spells that'll come up occasionally but overall it's underwhelming. Hilariously I think it would be better if he knew the entire skink lore instead. Not sure why he doesn't know both tbh. Teclis gets to know 22~ spells after all.

I think if you like the model and have the disposable income, go ahead and pick it up. It's a great model and the more they sell the more likely they are to make more new toys for us. But from a gaming standpoint I think a normal slann is the better choice. I've said this before on the forum, but I really wish they pushed kroak further, putting him in the 600-800 point god tier that he deserves to be in.

TLDR, he's not bad and you'll have some fun games with him, but he's not worth the point increase over a normal slann.

 

[Dreamkeeper]

Unfortunately I think we're better off just running a normal slann instead. For 165 points we get an additional +1 to cast/unbind, 1 extra cast/unbind, slightly better CA, celestial deliverance, a very hard to rate "defensive?" ability, and added utility of knowing the entire slann lore. The thing is a normal slann will be able to get the job done in the magic phase against the majority of opponents so I think the extra +1 to cast and extra cast/unbind is overkill in most cases. Celestial deliverance is much less useful without the added range of balewind, I don't think you'll get great mileage out of it until turn 2-3. Dead for Inumerable Ages is a terribly designed rule, and from a "competitive" standpoint is too much of a liability imo. Knowing the entire slann lore would be better if the slann lore was actually good. There's a couple niche spells that'll come up occasionally but overall it's underwhelming. Hilariously I think it would be better if he knew the entire skink lore instead. Not sure why he doesn't know both tbh. Teclis gets to know 22~ spells after all.

I think if you like the model and have the disposable income, go ahead and pick it up. It's a great model and the more they sell the more likely they are to make more new toys for us. But from a gaming standpoint I think a normal slann is the better choice. I've said this before on the forum, but I really wish they pushed kroak further, putting him in the 600-800 point god tier that he deserves to be in.

TLDR, he's not bad and you'll have some fun games with him, but he's not worth the point increase over a normal slann.

Well, that's what I thought. Shame. I hope they will change him somehow

 

[Tyranitar]

Well, that's what I thought. Shame. I hope they will change him somehow

Probably not until a new tome which is likely years away

 

[Putzfrau]

Well, that's what I thought. Shame. I hope they will change him somehow

He's absolutely good, just probably not the most competitive option if you're goal is to 5-0 tournaments.

Unless you are actively participating in extremely competitive events, you will get plenty of great use out of him.

I prefer the slann for all the reasons @Tyranitar mentioned, but I don't think the impression you should take away is that kroak is "bad" because he's not. He's just not as good as a regular slann in most lists, which is fine.

 

[Dreamkeeper]

Ok, hear me out
I have money for either Lord Kroak or Radukar the Beast + 10 Dire Wolves. What should I choose?

 

[Tyranitar]

Well, obviously Kroak! This is a scaly skinned echo chamber after all lol

 

[Jason839]

Personally, find the lack of balewind hurts kroak more than his new rules. I really miss that extra range.

 

[Dingus]

Kroak is still a very strong model. He just might not be the MOST optimal choice in most lists. That's not saying too much because there are a lot of great choices in Seraphon at the moment.

The current meta flavor seems to be favoring regular Slann over Kroak. That being said, Kroak still wrecks house he just might be a little less reliable for his points because of his special mechanic that allows him to potentially die from a relatively small number of damage.

Personally, I think our book is strong enough that you can afford to take him and still probably do very well unless you're perhaps competing at the highest of levels.

 

[Lambs and Lions]

I have seen top preforming lists with and without him. He is very powerful and can be very difficult to kill, especially with support. He is just no longer the auto-include he was.

Against most armies he will be a total powerhouse, shutting down the magic phase and dishing out mortal wounds. However against some top tier lists like tzeench and lumineth his spells can be auto shut down and he doesn't pull his weight when you could just be taking more salamanders which are always good.

 

[Canas]

To be honest he seems to want to do too much at once, and consequently isn't truly good at anything.

Dead for innumerable ages is great in theory, effectivly he's going to be immortal most of the time if you play decently and don't make him fight say a bloodthirster. But the low minimum wounds required means you still can't risk it and play like that cuz he will occasionally die to very minor threats, like a handfull of clannrats.... Putting him in a weird situation where he is increadibly sturdy, and should be willing to take risks. But can't because he will occasionally die to some stupid minor threat...

Azerite barrier does a stupid amount of attacks in the right circumstances, but can also be completly harmless if your opponent pays any sort of attention and sends the right enemies to kill him. Which means he's in this awkward situation where he is both good and utterly terrible in combat.

Magic-wise he has great casting bonusses. But celestial deliverance doesn't really have the needed range without balewind, forcing him to go closer than he wants, and the slann lore is just underwhelming. Plus the difference with a regular slann isn't that great. So really, unless you really want celestial deliverance you might as well just take a regular slann.

And lastly you got some random support abilities stapled on with the free CP & his command ability. Which again, aren't bad, but feel a bit out of place when the rest of his special rules focus on dealing loads of damage and on being immortal. And again, his support abilities aren't major enough to label him a support hero.

Honestly, fixing this wouldn't even be difficult. He wouldn't need to be in the 600-800 prize range by any stretch. But he needs to actually focus on a role and stick to that instead of half-assing all of it. Is he going to be a close-range combat-ish hero with powerfull defenses, attacks and powerfull short range spells? Is he a backline squishy caster with powerfull long range spells? Is he supposed to be sturdy and willing to take risks? Is he a glass cannon that can die to a few clanrats and thus avoids any and all risks? Is he supposed to be a powerfull support hero? Right now he tries to do it all, but isn't amazing at any of it.

 

[Dingus]

To be honest he seems to want to do too much at once, and consequently isn't truly good at anything.

Dead for innumerable ages is great in theory, effectivly he's going to be immortal most of the time if you play decently and don't make him fight say a bloodthirster. But the low minimum wounds required means you still can't risk it and play like that cuz he will occasionally die to very minor threats, like a handfull of clannrats.... Putting him in a weird situation where he is increadibly sturdy, and should be willing to take risks. But can't because he will occasionally die to some stupid minor threat...

Azerite barrier does a stupid amount of attacks in the right circumstances, but can also be completly harmless if your opponent pays any sort of attention and sends the right enemies to kill him. Which means he's in this awkward situation where he is both good and utterly terrible in combat.

Magic-wise he has great casting bonusses. But celestial deliverance doesn't really have the needed range without balewind, forcing him to go closer than he wants, and the slann lore is just underwhelming. Plus the difference with a regular slann isn't that great. So really, unless you really want celestial deliverance you might as well just take a regular slann.

And lastly you got some random support abilities stapled on with the free CP & his command ability. Which again, aren't bad, but feel a bit out of place when the rest of his special rules focus on dealing loads of damage and on being immortal. And again, his support abilities aren't major enough to label him a support hero.

Honestly, fixing this wouldn't even be difficult. He wouldn't need to be in the 600-800 prize range by any stretch. But he needs to actually focus on a role and stick to that instead of half-assing all of it. Is he going to be a close-range combat-ish hero with powerfull defenses, attacks and powerfull short range spells? Is he a backline squishy caster with powerfull long range spells? Is he supposed to be sturdy and willing to take risks? Is he a glass cannon that can die to a few clanrats and thus avoids any and all risks? Is he supposed to be a powerfull support hero? Right now he tries to do it all, but isn't amazing at any of it.

I find that Kroak feels oppressively good in very certain matchups, particularly slower melee armie with good saves, but those aren't very meta ATM.

 

[Canas]

I find that Kroak feels oppressively good in very certain matchups, particularly slower melee armie with good saves, but those aren't very meta ATM.

I mean, so is our basic skink + salamander + slann list in that matchup. So that isn't so much a case of "Kroak is good" as much as it is "slow melee army is bad"

 

[Dingus]

I mean, so is our basic skink + salamander + slann list in that matchup. So that isn't so much a case of "Kroak is good" as much as it is "slow melee army is bad"

I see your point. I'm just saying, Kroak particularly is a big shut down on high armor save, slow armies. Kroak and 5 Saurus guard can probably chew through a metric ton of Mortek without blinking an eye.

But yes, you are right, it doesn't mean Kroak is OP or even good necessarily. I'm just saying, he has his uses.