AoS Warhammer Weekly NPE Discussion

[Tyranitar]

The double turn won't go away, it's a core element of AoS in gw's own words. What they need to do is play around with more ways that the second player in priority order gains an advantage every turn, like the mission where player 2 burns an objective, to balance out double turns.

Side note, if slann don't have the new lumineth "contemplate" ability added to their warscroll the next time it gets updated, I'll be very sad. They're masters of contemplation...

 

[Carnikang]

What they need to do is play around with more ways that the second player in priority order gains an advantage every turn, like the mission where player 2 burns an objective, to balance out double turns.

I think it's a little more complicated than that, since most lists really like taking the second turn in the first Round. Meaning they have the ability to go first in the second Round. It's just softening the blow of the double turn that could make it less swingy. But then again, I've seen Double turns swing the pendulum away from someone hammering their opponent to giving the opponent breathing room and a come-back round.

 

[ArtoriusaurusRex]

I've never met someone who actually likes the double turn rule. Most people I know completely despise it and almost every game I've played starts with the question: "Are we playing with double turns?"

 

[Grotpunter]

I've never met someone who actually likes the double turn rule. Most people I know completely despise it and almost every game I've played starts with the question: "Are we playing with double turns?"

Really? I cant imagine playing AoS without the rule. It is such a fundamental part of the game. I think the game would be too boring and too "predictable" if you could measure out the exact movement/threat range of your opponent. The fact he sometimes might get to do things twice really changes how you have to think, play, screen, take risks etc.

 

[Nart]

Removing double turn won't resolve most of the current problems, including mass shooting and magic domination. Look at 40k now - it all about alpha-strikes and have its own "first turn problem" which is, imo, way worse than double turn. Double turn have even less impact in melee vs melee armies, where it is mitigated by alternative activations in close combat.

Double turn really shines in competitive games (I even found myself recently giving up possibility of double turn to gain advantage), but I see how it can lead to NPE for newer/casual players. But there's nothing wrong homeruling it out.

I am not a fan of it, personaly, but I don't view it as a disaster too. I got used to play with it and it doesn't bother me. Yes, sometimes I lose/win games just because of it, but it is a rare case. I could've lost as well because of a bad critical charge roll, bad magic/shooting/combat, etc. in the same way.

 

[Jason839]

it took me a long time to get to the point where I really dont care about the double. i feel like once started playing more conservatively and safe, and trying to win on turn 5, i started to naturally protect myself from doubles and stopped losing to them.

 

[erians]

I've never met someone who actually likes the double turn rule. Most people I know completely despise it and almost every game I've played starts with the question: "Are we playing with double turns?"

I think its an essential mechanic. It adds strategic depth and excitement. The game state is the issue. If units didnt get 1-shot left and right then double turns wouldnt have nearly as big impact. I hope they slow the game down a bit, tone down damage and reduce the effectiveness of pure shooting.

 

[Putzfrau]

I've never met someone who actually likes the double turn rule. Most people I know completely despise it and almost every game I've played starts with the question: "Are we playing with double turns?"

Count me as one

I love the double turn and think it adds a lot of strategy to the game. I also think it's awesome that in a desperate scenario you can just gamble on getting it (or your opponent not getting it).

 

[Canas]

meh, there's two major issues with the double turn.

1) If you face a double turn there's nothing you can do but pray and hope you survive

And

2) It's a single dice-roll.

Now the RNG is a fairly straightforward problem. People generally don't like it when a single diceroll has this great an impact on the outcome of the overall game. The easiest solution to this is either remove it, or significantly reduce its impact.

The other issue though is a bit more complicated as it is due to a more systemic problem AoS has by design. Namely that the active player is allowed to do quite a lot before the other player actually gets to respond. The only phase during which the non-active player gets to do anything is during the melee phase. Which even during a regular turn means you end up just sitting there for quite a long period of time seeing your opponent get into position, shoot your troops to bits, throw some spells etc. Before you finally get to do anything. The doubleturn makes this existing problem magnitudes worse. Which is why there's such a large chunk of people who dislike it.

Yeah it's tactical and all, but sitting there for 10 minutes while your opponents does his thing before you get to reply is already bad enough, having to sit through it twice just kinda sucks. The only thing that's going to help here is to give players something to do while they wait for their opponent to finish their turn. Stuff like a gryph-hound warning you when someone deepstrikes near you, skinks retreating with parting shot are great examples of mechanics that give the 2nd player something to do and giving him a greater sense of agency in protecting himself from a doubleturn (or more generally, from whatever his opponent is doing)

 

[Putzfrau]

meh, there's two major issues with the double turn.

1) If you face a double turn there's nothing you can do but pray and hope you survive

And

2) It's a single dice-roll.

Now the RNG is a fairly straightforward problem. People generally don't like it when a single diceroll has this great an impact on the outcome of the overall game. The easiest solution to this is either remove it, or significantly reduce its impact.

The other issue though is a bit more complicated as it is due to a more systemic problem AoS has by design. Namely that the active player is allowed to do quite a lot before the other player actually gets to respond. The only phase during which the non-active player gets to do anything is during the melee phase. Which even during a regular turn means you end up just sitting there for quite a long period of time seeing your opponent get into position, shoot your troops to bits, throw some spells etc. Before you finally get to do anything. The doubleturn makes this existing problem magnitudes worse. Which is why there's such a large chunk of people who dislike it.

Yeah it's tactical and all, but sitting there for 10 minutes while your opponents does his thing before you get to reply is already bad enough, having to sit through it twice just kinda sucks. The only thing that's going to help here is to give players something to do while they wait for their opponent to finish their turn. Stuff like a gryph-hound warning you when someone deepstrikes near you, skinks retreating with parting shot are great examples of mechanics that give the 2nd player something to do and giving him a greater sense of agency in protecting himself from a doubleturn (or more generally, from whatever his opponent is doing)

If you're not planning and playing around the double turn you're doing yourself a disservice.

This idea there's nothing you can do about it (or all you can do is "pray and hope to survive") is just wrong.

edit: For example in this game I played:

my first turn i basically do nothing, setting up my threat ranges for the possibility of a double. I stayed 22'' away in my top of turn so he would require a double to get into combat and start doing damage. This is obviously more difficult if the double happens later in the game, but theres always things you can do. Threat ranges, extra screens, etc. The game is about patience and if you aren't planning around those things you aren't maximizing your ability to win each and every game.

 

[Dread Saurian]

If you're not planning and playing around the double turn you're doing yourself a disservice.

This idea there's nothing you can do about it (or all you can do is "pray and hope to survive") is just wrong.

But it isn't wrong. It's completely true. The only influence an opponent has in regards to double turn is maybe trying to counterspell and the fight phase. Getting 1st turn then having to sit through 2 turns is cancerous. And saying that the double turn is something of what makes aos into aos is both ignorant and Ill informed. I'll admit the trading chances on who fights is enjoyable. But when it is common knowledge and even large YouTube channels flat out refuse to use the double turn. It kind of says a lot about it.

 

[Canas]

If you're not planning and playing around the double turn you're doing yourself a disservice.

This idea there's nothing you can do about it (or all you can do is "pray and hope to survive") is just wrong.

You can do things pre-emptivly yes. But you can't do anything while the double turn is actually happening. That's kind of how turn based games tend to work. You need to wait till it's your turn before you can respond. Which in itself is fine obviously. But in the case of a double turn that wait simply gets very very long and your opponent gets to do an awefull lot of things before you finally get to respond again. Which a lot of people don't find fun.

Watching your opponent do his thing for 20 minutes, scoring points, murdering your army, manouvering about etc. before it's finally your turn again just isn't all that fun. And that's without even going into how powerfull the doubleturn is. The mere wait is enough to turn a lot of people off.

 

[Dread Saurian]

You can do things pre-emptivly yes. But you can't do anything while the double turn is actually happening. That's kind of how turn based games tend to work. You need to wait till it's your turn before you can respond. Which in itself is fine obviously. But in the case of a double turn that wait simply gets very very long and your opponent gets to do an awefull lot of things before you finally get to respond again. Which a lot of people don't find fun.

Watching your opponent do his thing for 20 minutes, scoring points, murdering your army, manouvering about etc. before it's finally your turn again just isn't all that fun. And that's without even going into how powerfull the doubleturn is. The mere wait is enough to turn a lot of people off.

Had one of my dreads get killed because of the double turn. Both the most impressive display of desperation I've ever seen and the most annoying because he didn't get to do anything

 

[Putzfrau]

You can do things pre-emptivly yes. But you can't do anything while the double turn is actually happening. That's kind of how turn based games tend to work. You need to wait till it's your turn before you can respond. Which in itself is fine obviously. But in the case of a double turn that wait simply gets very very long and your opponent gets to do an awefull lot of things before you finally get to respond again. Which a lot of people don't find fun.

Watching your opponent do his thing for 20 minutes, scoring points, murdering your army, manouvering about etc. before it's finally your turn again just isn't all that fun. And that's without even going into how powerfull the doubleturn is. The mere wait is enough to turn a lot of people off.

then your complaint is about turn based games not the double turn. "doing things pre-emptivly" is still.. surprise, doing things. It's a lot different than your initial comment which was "all you can do is pray and hope to survive" which is total bullshit and completely removes player skill and tactical decision from the equation. Which is something you seem to do a lot in your arguments and something i hate.

But it isn't wrong. It's completely true. The only influence an opponent has in regards to double turn is maybe trying to counterspell and the fight phase. Getting 1st turn then having to sit through 2 turns is cancerous. And saying that the double turn is something of what makes aos into aos is both ignorant and Ill informed. I'll admit the trading chances on who fights is enjoyable. But when it is common knowledge and even large YouTube channels flat out refuse to use the double turn. It kind of says a lot about it.

Don't call me ignorant and ill informed for having a different opinion than you. If you'd like for me to talk through how the double turn provides dynamic, important decisions i will gladly. I have no problem with people not being a fan of the double turn. I do have a problem portraying it as something you can only "hope and pray to survive" which isn't true and not, what i would consider, a fair criticism.

 

[Dread Saurian]

then your complaint is about turn based games not the double turn. "doing things pre-emptivly" is still.. surprise, doing things. It's a lot different than your initial comment which was "all you can do is pray and hope to survive" which is total bullshit and completely removes player skill and tactical decision from the equation. Which is something you seem to do a lot in your arguments and something i hate.



Don't call me ignorant and ill informed for having a different opinion than you. If you'd like for me to talk through how the double turn provides dynamic, important decisions i will gladly.

Preemptively setting up anything on turn 1 hardly means much when it comes to smash armies. I don't think I can express that enough when facing against an army that can take out 20 fucking wounds off one of my behemoths in 1 turn of shooting get the double turn and then chunk another 20 off the other one, then charge and kill it. It is a valid complaint about the Ludacris nature to double turns

Since I'm not good at quoting tiny parts I'll reply. Yes you are ignorant and Ill informed its not a negative thing it's not a positive thing. This game is based on RNG. If you paid attention to any of my tirades on people talking about math in this game you'd already of known it's all RNG. Rolling dice is still random and it doesn't matter how much you manipulate the chances of hitting and wounding you can still roll all 1s

 

[Putzfrau]

Preemptively setting up anything on turn 1 hardly means much when it comes to smash armies. I don't think I can express that enough when facing against an army that can take out 20 fucking wounds off one of my behemoths in 1 turn of shooting get the double turn and then chunk another 20 off the other one, then charge and kill it. It is a valid complaint about the Ludacris nature to double turns

Since I'm not good at quoting tiny parts I'll reply. Yes you are ignorant and Ill informed its not a negative thing it's not a positive thing. This game is based on RNG. If you paid attention to any of my tirades on people talking about math in this game you'd already of known it's all RNG. Rolling dice is still random and it doesn't matter how much you manipulate the chances of hitting and wounding you can still roll all 1s

This game is not all RNG. It's why the best players consistently rise to the top. If you'd like me to elaborate I will gladly, but i refuse to be called ignorant and ill-informed simply because i understand how to play around a double turn.

 

[Dread Saurian]

This game is not all RNG. It's why the best players consistently rise to the top. If you'd like me to elaborate I will gladly, but i refuse to be called ignorant and ill-informed simply because i understand how to play around a double turn.

I'd love for you to explain and expand my views. Im not unreasonable in the slightest. I'm quite the pagmatist and the one people come for brutal honesty.
But I'd love most of all is for you to even attempt to explain how a game literally with its core mechanic is dice rolling (functionally the most true random you can get in terms of results) isn't rng. Especially when I even acknowledged that you're able to MANIPULATE the chances on dice rolls.
This will be good

 

[Nart]

Well, with all honesty, in your opponents turn, you can: 1) move endless spells; 2) throw unbindings; 3) some factions can use couter-abilities and make decisions (like destiny dice); 4) most important - activate your units in combat, which is a big part, when you have melee vs melee armies.

Honestly, being doubled feels bad for me, but I can't descripe it as "20 minutes of doing nothing".

I think, the first step to make double turn more attractive is to move all scoring to end of the round instead end of the turn. It will make going first in turn 2+ less attractive.

 

[Putzfrau]

I'd love for you to explain and expand my views. Im not unreasonable in the slightest. I'm quite the pagmatist and the one people come for brutal honesty.
But I'd love most of all is for you to even attempt to explain how a game literally with its core mechanic is dice rolling (functionally the most true random you can get in terms of results) isn't rng. Especially when I even acknowledged that you're able to MANIPULATE the chances on dice rolls.
This will be good

Yes, RNG is always going to play a factor in this game but it doesnt play a consistent factor. No one is consistently losing because the dice isn't going their way, they are consistently losing because they are putting themselves into situations that are unfavorable. Also, rolling dice is a core mechanic of doing damage, and doing damage isn't how you win games.

This game is won and lost in the movement phase and deployment. You can win games without rolling a single dice. Obviously, the game also doesn't have the greatest balance in the world but if you're bringing a janky list IMO you're accepting that there are some games you just won't win without a ton of luck.

For example, your reference of "20 wounds off my behemoth in 1 turn and then 20 off another in a double." This tells me that you did nothing to mitigate their first turn threat range even though you apparently weren't going to be able to do damage yourself, or you didn't have enough screens/throwaway units in your list to hold points while your important stuff could stay safer. That's a tactical and list building problem, not an RNG or double turn problem.

Granted, there are always situations in this game where damage is unavoidable but you're still trying to mitigate it as much as possible or set a situation up that allows you to trade more favorable in the following turn.

I've found that players who fundamentally put this game down to RNG generally aren't putting themselves in the best positions in the first place.

Full disclosure, i thought "this will be good" was incredibly rude. If you wanna blame your losses on RNG be my guest, but there's a reason good players win most of their games and there's a reason good players with bad armies and bad luck will still beat bad players with good armies and good luck.

 

[Putzfrau]

Well, with all honesty, in your opponents turn, you can: 1) move endless spells; 2) throw unbindings; 3) some factions can use couter-abilities and make decisions (like destiny dice); 4) most important - activate your units in combat, which is a big part, when you have melee vs melee armies.

Honestly, being doubled feels bad for me, but I can't descripe it as "20 minutes of doing nothing".

I think, the first step to make double turn more attractive is to move all scoring to end of the round instead end of the turn. It will make going first in turn 2+ less attractive.

I think that would be a big buff to going second, and i'm not sure if going second should be stronger, do you?