8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Killer Angel]

Up next are the Executioners vs. Skullcrushers. This is the match I've been most excited about this round.

The hype is real!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

The hype is real!

I think it's true though, I think that this fight will possibly determine second/third place winners...

 

[Lizards of Renown]

The Beasts of Nurgle hand the Savage Orcs their first Massive Loss of the tournament. The defensive combo of -1 hit, T5, Regeneration and 4 wounds a model is dirty good!

Yes, quite a powerful combination and not too expensive either. Makes me seriously wonder about expanding my Khorne-only army to include some Nurglites...

The Beasts of Nurgle find themselves tied for 4th and only a point out of the top 3. Outside of a few matchups, many of their future opponents will be hard pressed to beat them. A top 3 finish is definitely in play!

Yes, I think my earlier post about which units are above and beyond being caught by any others still stands. Just a question of which will be #2 and #3 and I honestly don't know how it will go down. Very close in deadliness between each other.

Can the Mournfang Cavalry and the Demigryph Knights stop the Beasts of Nurgle, as the Skullcrushers had done before? What about the HPA?

I think my Thundercats will make it... I think the S4 of the Beasts of Nurgle won't be enough to make a difference. I'm predicting a win for both the Mournfangs and my dark-horse choice of the Demi-gryphs.

Up next are the Executioners vs. Skullcrushers. This is the match I've been most excited about this round. The Demigryphs had lost massively to the Executioners, so this is a chance for the Skullcrushers to offset their head-to-head loss vs. the Demigryphs. On the flipside, a win by the Executioners would leap frog them over the Skullcrushers in the standings. Both units need this win!!

This should be very interesting... But in the end, I think the Executioners with their 2HW will eke out a victory.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Yes, quite a powerful combination and not too expensive either. Makes me seriously wonder about expanding my Khorne-only army to include some Nurglites...

I think that is a good idea. Why limit yourself to 1/4 of an army book.

I think my Thundercats will make it... I think the S4 of the Beasts of Nurgle won't be enough to make a difference. I'm predicting a win for both the Mournfangs and my dark-horse choice of the Demi-gryphs.

They sure need the points, especially the Mournfang. Plus, somebody has to put a dent in the Beasts of Nurgle!

This should be very interesting... But in the end, I think the Executioners with their 2HW will eke out a victory.

You mean great weapon. Each Executioner has a single attack with their great weapon @S6

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Okay, let's finish out round 7. Skullcrushers of Khorne vs. Har Ganeth Executioners!

Key rules in play:

• Skullcrushers: Brass Behemoth, MoK
• Executioners: Murderous Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

Well, that bout lived up to expectations, it was a bloodbath and came right down to the wire. In the end, the Executioners were able to grab a Victory.

It's definitely a tough matchup for both sides, and in actual game terms its nearly a coin toss. The Executioners having the advantage of a greater likelihood of grinding down the Skullcrushers, and the Skullcrushers having a greater likelihood of breaking the Executioners. The Executioners ability to strike in initiative order with their GW is what allowed them to win the day. They strike simultaneously with the Skullcrusher riders, but importantly they strike before the Juggernauts get to go. This means they can take out a few of the Juggernauts before the the Juggers have a chance to decimate their numbers. This is the very reason why I feel that a unit like the Hammerers will lose to the Skullcrushers; taking the full brunt of the Skullcrushers offence before you strike is a risky game to play.



So, what do you guys think of this epic showdown? The Dark Elves are really performing exceptionally well in the tournament!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

At the end of round #7, the standings are as follows...



Look at that Arachnarok go... go little spider go!

Meanwhile, we find the Dark Elves taking up 2 out of the 3 top spots!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, let's finish out round 7. Skullcrushers of Khorne vs. Har Ganeth Executioners!

Key rules in play:

• Skullcrushers: Brass Behemoth, MoK
• Executioners: Murderous Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

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Well, that bout lived up to expectations, it was a bloodbath and came right down to the wire. In the end, the Executioners were able to grab a Victory.

It's definitely a tough matchup for both sides, and in actual game terms its nearly a coin toss. The Executioners having the advantage of a greater likelihood of grinding down the Skullcrushers, and the Skullcrushers having a greater likelihood of breaking the Executioners. The Executioners ability to strike in initiative order with their GW is what allowed them to win the day. They strike simultaneously with the Skullcrusher riders, but importantly they strike before the Juggernauts get to go. This means they can take out a few of the Juggernauts before the the Juggers have a chance to decimate their numbers. This is the very reason why I feel that a unit like the Hammerers will lose to the Skullcrushers; taking the full brunt of the Skullcrushers offence before you strike is a risky game to play.

View attachment 82617

So, what do you guys think of this epic showdown? The Dark Elves are really performing exceptionally well in the tournament!

Well, Dark Elves are definitely one of the top tier and their representatives' performances are showing this well. All three units at the top of the table (with one of the units as CORE(!!!!) for mahlect's sake!).

I feel vindicated in my prediction of how this combat was going to go, I knew it would be close but I had a feeling the executioners would win out (based on some math-hammer in my head).

This must mean they will perform slightly better against the Demi-Gryph Knights.

 

[Killer Angel]

A bloodbath, indeed... and a pity, 3 consecutive break tests which executioners were assumed to pass successfully.

We absolutely need to run these fights in a vacuum and with pre-determined results, but i fear this doesn't do justice to the relative strenghts of the units in a real game.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well, Dark Elves are definitely one of the top tier and their representatives' performances are showing this well. All three units at the top of the table (with one of the units as CORE(!!!!) for mahlect's sake!).

At least they are balanced out by their huge susceptibility to ranged firepower. Shooting and magic are the best way to handle them. Plus, like with all units, they have counters in close combat too (as our results have shown).

This must mean they will perform slightly better against the Demi-Gryph Knights.

They already beat the Demigryphs and it was a Massive Victory.

A bloodbath, indeed... and a pity, 3 consecutive break tests which executioners were assumed to pass successfully.

We absolutely need to run these fights in a vacuum and with pre-determined results, but i fear this doesn't do justice to the relative strenghts of the units in a real game.

That is definitely one of the limitations of this tourney. Dealing with break tests is tricky, you either put one unit at a disadvantage or another. The hope is that by the end, after 15 matchups each, things will average out. I do think that the experiment has revealed a wealth of useful data that can help us make wiser tactical decisions on the battlefield as well as during list building. Some units that initially seemed very scary, now seem better balanced, while other units that might have been overlooked have earned some deserved respect.

 

[Wyvernaarch]

To be honest, we could predict the outcome of this encounter based on Executioners' fight with Demigryph Knights. Skullcrushers' riders are much more dangerous than Inner Circle knights, but otherwise these units are pretty similar: fast, with good armour and hitting like a truck in melee.
Hammerers in this situation would face not only full effect of ASL but lack of re-rolls (Murderous Prowess and the like) as well. And seeing their defeat by Mournfangs with defensive loadout does not make things look bright in case of Skullcrushers. At least they have artillery on their side!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

To be honest, we could predict the outcome of this encounter based on Executioners' fight with Demigryph Knights. Skullcrushers' riders are much more dangerous than Inner Circle knights, but otherwise these units are pretty similar: fast, with good armour and hitting like a truck in melee.
Hammerers in this situation would face not only full effect of ASL but lack of re-rolls (Murderous Prowess and the like) as well. And seeing their defeat by Mournfangs with defensive loadout does not make things look bright in case of Skullcrushers. At least they have artillery on their side!

Agreed. At least the Skullcrusher's did significantly better than the Demigryphs did, who got decimated instantly.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Let's start the 8th round. Beasts of Nurgle vs. Mournfang Cavalry.

Key rules in play:

• Beasts of Nurgle: DoN, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration
• Mournfang Cavalry: Thick-skinned

That is the longest match we have had thus far! For anyone wondering, tournament rounds can go past the standard 6 game turns (12 turns of combat) of a WFB game. We go until the end... although I hope it never comes to that!

This game was very nearly the first tie in the tournament. The Mournfang ended the match sitting at 0.417 wounds, which by convention we round down. If however, they had 0.5 wounds left, we'd round that up. The Beasts would then lose another wound due to Daemonic Instability and would enter the next round at 0.7. The Beasts would then kill the Mournfang, but would simultaneously be taken down to 0.2 wounds, which is rounded down to zero. It would have been a tie... we were that close!

In regards to the match, the only reason it was so close was because of the Mournfang's standard. That +1 to combat resolution meant that they won each round (besides the first, where the Beasts had a rank bonus... and of course the last round where they were wiped out), which resulted in the Beasts losing an additional wound due to Daemonic Instability. As such, they lost 9 wounds due to that silly banner.

As for the Mournfang, this was their opportunity to pull off a victory as the Skullcrushers had done before them (and as the Demigryph Knights likely will). The Beasts don't like heavy armour, but the Mournfangs' horrible WS (plus the -1 to hit) and their poor initiative sealed their doom.



@Lizards of Renown 's 2nd place prediction for the Beasts of Nurgle seems increasingly more likely. It will come down to how well they perform against the Executioners and the HPA. I'm assuming they will lose to the Demigryphs, but aside from that, their remaining schedule seems pretty favourable. So, who else thinks that the Beasts can claim the silver medal? And if not, who do you feel will be able to best them on the podium (besides the Destroyer)?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Let's start the 8th round. Beasts of Nurgle vs. Mournfang Cavalry.

Key rules in play:

• Beasts of Nurgle: DoN, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration
• Mournfang Cavalry: Thick-skinned

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That is the longest match we have had thus far! For anyone wondering, tournament rounds can go past the standard 6 game turns (12 turns of combat) of a WFB game. We go until the end... although I hope it never comes to that!

This game was very nearly the first tie in the tournament. The Mournfang ended the match sitting at 0.417 wounds, which by convention we round down. If however, they had 0.5 wounds left, we'd round that up. The Beasts would then lose another wound due to Daemonic Instability and would enter the next round at 0.7. The Beasts would then kill the Mournfang, but would simultaneously be taken down to 0.2 wounds, which is rounded down to zero. It would have been a tie... we were that close!

In regards to the match, the only reason it was so close was because of the Mournfang's standard. That +1 to combat resolution meant that they won each round (besides the first, where the Beasts had a rank bonus... and of course the last round where they were wiped out), which resulted in the Beasts losing an additional wound due to Daemonic Instability. As such, they lost 9 wounds due to that silly banner.

As for the Mournfang, this was their opportunity to pull off a victory as the Skullcrushers had done before them (and as the Demigryph Knights likely will). The Beasts don't like heavy armour, but the Mournfangs' horrible WS (plus the -1 to hit) and their poor initiative sealed their doom.

View attachment 82639

@Lizards of Renown 's 2nd place prediction for the Beasts of Nurgle seems increasingly more likely. It will come down to how well they perform against the Executioners and the HPA. I'm assuming they will lose to the Demigryphs, but aside from that, their remaining schedule seems pretty favourable. So, who else thinks that the Beasts can claim the silver medal? And if not, who do you feel will be able to best them on the podium (besides the Destroyer)?

Poor, poor Thundercats...

(As a side note, 3 out of my 4 armies have terrible WS... Lizardmen, Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms... Whoops)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Poor, poor Thundercats...

It was a good fight though. They did a lot better in the match up than a lot of the higher ranked units had in the past! They even took the Beasts of Nurgle past the point that the K'daai Destroyer had.

Sadly, they just haven't been able to compete with the other Monstrous Cavalry in the tournament.

(As a side note, 3 out of my 4 armies have terrible WS... Lizardmen, Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms... Whoops)

At least the TK have the "My Will Be Done" rule to give them a WS boost.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That last match was a pillow fight that dragged on round after round with very little action. This one I promise you will not play out the same way!

Witch Elves vs. White Lions of Chrace

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• White Lions: Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

Like lambs to the slaughter. A very poor matchup for the White Lions, they never stood a chance. You gotta appreciate the lone White Lion's heroic final stand in the third and final round!

With that result the Witch Elves find themselves in sole possession of second place, and are only a single point behind the Destroyer (who of course still has yet to fight in this round). The White Lions on the other hand find themselves on the opposite end of the spectrum, as they slide into third last.



So who is happy to see the Witch Elves triumph over the White Lions? Will the White Lions sink below the Mournfang Cavalry for second last place? Can the Witch Elves hold off the surging Beasts of Nurgle?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

That last match was a pillow fight that dragged on round after round with very little action. This one I promise you will not play out the same way!

Witch Elves vs. White Lions of Chrace

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• White Lions: Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

View attachment 82681

Like lambs to the slaughter. A very poor matchup for the White Lions, they never stood a chance. You gotta appreciate the lone White Lion's heroic final stand in the third and final round!

With that result the Witch Elves find themselves in sole possession of second place, and are only a single point behind the Destroyer (who of course still has yet to fight in this round). The White Lions on the other hand find themselves on the opposite end of the spectrum, as they slide into third last.

View attachment 82682

So who is happy to see the Witch Elves triumph over the White Lions? Will the White Lions sink below the Mournfang Cavalry for second last place? Can the Witch Elves hold off the surging Beasts of Nurgle?

YAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!

[Ahem]

So, even though I have no particular liking for the Witch Elves, I'm happy to see the White Lions continue to slide down the standings.

As I said before, the fight for #2 and #3 is only really between a couple of units now. Dark Elves do truly have some fearsome troops. I do wonder if my WoC nominees would have done better with MoK and AHW as @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said... Especially considering how the Witch Elves have done. Ah well, At least it proved the point to me that the WoC with MoN are only really fearsome to low WS troops.

(Realizes majority of his own troops are low WS)



DOH!!!!!!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

So, even though I have no particular liking for the Witch Elves, I'm happy to see the White Lions continue to slide down the standings.

They might even slip below the Mournfang! They're pretty close.

I do wonder if my WoC nominees would have done better with MoK and AHW as @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said... Especially considering how the Witch Elves have done.

I wouldn't expect any miracles out of the MoK AHW Chaos Warriors. Maybe they would do a bit better or maybe a bit worse, but I'd imagine that they wouldn't deviate all that much from what we have seen. They are not Witch Elves. They don't have the poison + ASF + re-rolls that make the Witches so dangerous. The Witch Elves are a very special case where all of their rules work extremely well synergistically to create a very potent close combat unit. I think the Savage Orcs might be more analogous to the MoK warriors than the Witch Elves are.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Third match of round #8. Demigryph Knights vs. Soul Grinder!

Key rules in play:

• Demigryph Knights: Armour Piercing (Demigryph only)
• Soul Grinder: DoN, Daemonic, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+), Daemonbone Claw

Spoiler: Old matchup calculations, (without Musician)

A long and drawn out grindfest that sees the Soul Grinder come out victorious. Ultimately the Demigryphs have no solution for the Soul Grinder's toughness of 7. Even the normally potent S5 of the Demigryphs is utterly neutered against T7. Lucky for them, their banner kept them in the game, so they could at least badly damage the Soul Grinder before they finally fell.

Top 5 possibilities are slowly slipping through the fingers (claws) of the Demigryphs. The Soul Grinder, for the first time in the tourney, finds itself on a 2 fight win streak and it is slowly pulling away from the bottom of the pack and into the log jam that is the middle of the rankings.



Can the Soul Grinder finish somewhere in the middle of the pack (around 6-10 in the rankings)? Will the Demigryphs be able to move up the rankings, or will they move down, or stay roughly where they currently reside?

***UPDATED***

This matchup has been updated, with a musician added to the Demigryph Knight unit. The rationale for the decision can be found starting here . Basically it was agreed that to even out the points, it was fair to add a musician, which turns out to have a profound impact...




The addition of the musician changes the result from a Demigryph Loss to a Demigryph Massive Victory. Basically, both the Demigryphs and the Soul Grinder had difficulty wounding the other. The addition of the musician meant that instead of a drawn combat each round, the Soul Grinder lost by 1 and took an additional wound due to its daemonic instability. These additional wounds ended up bringing the big monster down and securing a comfortable win for the Demigryphs.

The change in the results will be recorded in all tables and standings charts starting on page 30 of this thread (in the standings summary after round #10 and the start of round #11). Please keep that in mind when viewing all tables between now and then.

 

[Imrahil]

Third match of round #8. Demigryph Knights vs. Soul Grinder!


Key rules in play:

• Demigryph Knights: Armour Piercing (Demigryph only)
• Soul Grinder: DoN, Daemonic, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+), Daemonbone Claw

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A long and drawn out grindfest that sees the Soul Grinder come out victorious. Ultimately the Demigryphs have no solution for the Soul Grinder's toughness of 7. Even the normally potent S5 of the Demigryphs is utterly neutered against T7. Lucky for them, their banner kept them in the game, so they could at least badly damage the Soul Grinder before they finally fell.

Top 5 possibilities are slowly slipping through the fingers (claws) of the Demigryphs. The Soul Grinder, for the first time in the tourney, finds itself on a 2 fight win streak and it is slowly pulling away from the bottom of the pack and into the log jam that is the middle of the rankings.

View attachment 82696

Can the Soul Grinder finish somewhere in the middle of the pack (around 6-10 in the rankings)? Will the Demigryphs be able to move up the rankings, or will they move down, or stay roughly where they currently reside?

What a long fights we have this battle round. I am not clear on the points costs per model, but there is a 18 point gap in favor of the Soul Grinder.
probably this gap will be the other way around if you were to add 1 more Demigryph Knight.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

What a long fights we have this battle round. I am not clear on the points costs per model, but there is a 18 point gap in favor of the Soul Grinder.
probably this gap will be the other way around if you were to add 1 more Demigryph Knight.

Grrr, Imrahil

If one more Demigryph was added the points total for each unit would be:

• Soul Grinder: 260
• Demigryph Knights: 300

So I'm essentially stuck between giving the Demigryphs a 18 point deficit or a 40 point advantage. With a single monster and an expensive points-per-model unit like Demigryphs (58 pts/model), the points will rarely line up perfectly, I just have to choose the lesser of two evils.