T'au vs Seraphon

[Salamander Tactics]

My two favorite WH factions. Who do you think wins? Shall it be the Will of the Old Ones, or the Greater Good?

Also whose Ideas do you think are more noble and just? Is the Will of the Old Ones a more moral idea, or is the Greater Good a more moral and principled idea?

 

[Scalenex]

C'mon @NIGHTBRINGER ? Why aren't you weighing in on this. You love Tau and Seraphon!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

C'mon @NIGHTBRINGER ? Why aren't you weighing in on this. You love Tau and Seraphon!

Because I'm trying not to levy too many insults at the expense of AoS!

In terms of the actual question:

Tau. As the common saying goes, don't bring an Aztec-style melee weapon to a gunfight.

 

[Scalenex]

My two favorite WH factions. Who do you think wins? Shall it be the Will of the Old Ones, or the Greater Good?

Tau. As the common saying goes, don't bring an Aztec-style melee weapon to a gunfight.

I don't see many Warhammer Fantasy factions standing up to even the weakest 40K factions.

Also whose Ideas do you think are more noble and just? Is the Will of the Old Ones a more moral idea, or is the Greater Good a more moral and principled idea?

My understanding of T'au is limited but like most 40K factions their pride and arrogance taints their values. They cannot truly represent the greater good.

Anyway, you asked two questions. Who would win a fight and who has the moral high ground. Since I believe the answers to these two questions are not the same faction I cannot vote one over the other.

 

[Kilvakar]

Oh, this is a hard one! Personally, I've always really liked the Tau and of course I'm a huge Lizardmen/Seraphon fan. I do think the Tau have the advantage here, though. First of all, there's probably a heck of a lot more of them, given the Seraphon's lack of any real advancement in AoS. Also, even though the Slann would have powerful magic that would definitely do some serious damage to Tau forces, pretty much everything in 40k is many levels of magnitude larger and more extreme than stuff in Fantasy/AoS. Plus, more primitive weaponry and tactics vs space age tech and tactics...

As for which philosophy I prefer, I have to say it depends on which version of them you're looking at. When Tau were first introduced into 40k, they were seemingly true "good guys." The way they all followed the principles of the Greater Good, welcomed contact with alien species and accepted them into their culture, and truly cared about the common people in their empire is what really made me like the faction. The cool battle mechs and futuristic technology was just a bonus. However, later on it would seem that GW gave in to the people who were upset that the Tau weren't as "grimdark" as the rest of the factions in that universe. So they changed the Ethereals to be your typical overlords who control their population through lies, manipulations, suppression of dissent, reeducation and possible mind control. Basically no different from any other faction's rulers at that point. Not to mention the whole 5th Sphere debacle that caused many Tau to radically change their attitudes, becoming xenophobic and starting to resemble the Imperium even more. Purging those they deemed a threat to the Greater Good and what not.

Now the Lizardmen on the other hand have always been more or less the epitome of "lawful neutral" to use D&D terms. Their enmity is reserved (for the most part) for the servants of Chaos and those who actively threaten them. But they really don't care about the non-chaos races at all. They may be on peaceful terms with the Humans, Elves, Dwarves, etc. most of the time, but as soon as anyone accidentally does something that a Slann deems to be against the Great Plan, time to wipe them out! However I think this has actually improved a little bit in AoS. Now the Seraphon actively keep embassies in the Cities of Sigmar, and are more likely to see the forces of order as allies rather than annoyances.

So all in all I would say that in their current states I prefer the Will of the Old Ones and the Seraphon over the Tau. If we are talking about Fantasy Lizardmen vs original Tau, then I would say the Tau have the philosophical edge.

 

[Salamander Tactics]

The Fish-Lizard Alliance has commenced! David Brin would be pleased. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe

 

[Canas]

Honestly I think the seraphon would probably do better than you'd expect at a first glance. in 40K we're basicly a minor ork tribe in terms of technological level. Saurus should be comparable in survivability to at least nobs, and those can shrug off gunshots, so it's not like we're easy to kill. And in comparison to orks we're far smarter, better organized & with far better magic. And we don't suffer from infighting. We even have some decent technology hidden here and there as can be seen with our solar engines & temple space ships. Add onto that the skinks ability to learn and we could very quickly become a major trait if we'd gain a foothold and started to reverse engineer some guns and such.

We're definitly not going to conquer the entire Tau empire, but we probably stand a decent chance of conquering a planet, or even an entire system as long as the Tau don't just bomb us from orbit or bring Titan-grade weaponry.

If our temple ships would be good enough to somehow gain void superiority and we'd find a way to deal with titan-grade weaponry we would probably be a significant treat to the Tau. Because at that point they're basicly just fighting an 40K ork Waagh but with waaaaay more intelligent leaders and far better magic.

Also, this is assuming we both have comparable supplies lines and such, so that the difference in scale between 40K and AoS isn't an issue. Obviously the trillions of inhabitants in a galactic empire, even a small one like the Tau, would crush the millions of seraphon living in the various temple cities and temple ships.

 

[JscoobertDoobert]

Honestly I think the seraphon would probably do better than you'd expect at a first glance. in 40K we're basicly a minor ork tribe in terms of technological level. Saurus should be comparable in survivability to at least nobs, and those can shrug off gunshots, so it's not like we're easy to kill. And in comparison to orks we're far smarter, better organized & with far better magic. And we don't suffer from infighting. We even have some decent technology hidden here and there as can be seen with our solar engines & temple space ships. Add onto that the skinks ability to learn and we could very quickly become a major trait if we'd gain a foothold and started to reverse engineer some guns and such.

We're definitly not going to conquer the entire Tau empire, but we probably stand a decent chance of conquering a planet, or even an entire system as long as the Tau don't just bomb us from orbit or bring Titan-grade weaponry.

If our temple ships would be good enough to somehow gain void superiority and we'd find a way to deal with titan-grade weaponry we would probably be a significant treat to the Tau. Because at that point they're basicly just fighting an 40K ork Waagh but with waaaaay more intelligent leaders and far better magic.

Also, this is assuming we both have comparable supplies lines and such, so that the difference in scale between 40K and AoS isn't an issue. Obviously the trillions of inhabitants in a galactic empire, even a small one like the Tau, would crush the millions of seraphon living in the various temple cities and temple ships.

Well orks don’t play by real rules. Orks break the laws of reality frequently so to compare them to something that has to abide by those laws isn’t a very good example. Also the lizardman got owned when the skaven blew up the moon, and that kinda firepower isn’t hard to get when you have functioning missile batteries and tanks. Not to mention that magic is prevalent in the form of psykers already, so a wizard doesn’t bring anything new to the table for the tau even if the slann are the best at it. Also ork waaghs are fueled by psychic energy that enhances the orks strength, not mention the near endless numbers of them from all around the galaxy.

 

[Canas]

Also the lizardman got owned when the skaven blew up the moon

As far as I know launching a moon at a planet is not a daily occurrence, even in 40K. Don't get me wrong, say a full on orbital bombardment with an entire fleet will be just as dangerous as a moon falling from the sky, but a few missile batteries will not even begin to compare.

Also, I am assuming that the Tau do actually want to keep the planet they're fighting on. Obviously if they start virus bombing it or other forms of exterminatus the Seraphon won't last terribly long.

Not to mention that magic is prevalent in the form of psykers already, so a wizard doesn’t bring anything new to the table for the tau even if the slann are the best at it.

For starters the tau have no psykers themselves, which is of course an advantages for the seraphon. However, a minor wizard like a Skink is indeed nothing too special, the tau have dealt with psykers that merely throw fireballs around before.
However, the Slann are far more powerfull than an average psyker; when that moon fell from the sky Mazdamundi was disintegrating continental sized chunks of it. Kroak is just flat out refusing to die cuz he's too busy murdering daemons for eons on end. That puts them on the level of alpha & alpha+ psykers, those can conquer planets on their own and take down titans.

Slann would basicly all be alpha or alpha-plus psykers maybe beta at worst. And unlike the regular alpha's and alpha+'s in 40K slanns are actually in control of their powers and sane. All slann working together should definitly be a considerable threat to a planet or system in 40K.

not mention the near endless numbers of them from all around the galaxy.

Again, I am assuming we're limiting ourselves to a "fair" battlefield, so about 1 planet's worth of Tau against roughly 1 planet's worth of seraphon, or maybe a system or two worth of Tau & seraphon. At which point it's similar numbers as trying to hold of a minor waagh invasion but with far better magic & far better organisation. Which should be a considerable threat to 1 planet's or a system's worth of defenders. And if the seraphon would happen to invade a non-military world they'd win easily; a local PDF doesn't have the firepower to deal with this level of psykers.

Obviously on a galactic scale the Seraphon would lose, even against a minor galactic empire like the Tau, unless they are allowed the time to slowly build up their numbers and conquer the occasional planet until they themselves become a proper galactic force with a viable space fleet and either the technology or numbers to not need to rely on Slann for every major engagement.

Also, if you find orks a bad example cuz they break the laws of physics, then compare it to a rather minor tendril of a hivefleet landing on a planet. Yeah its probably not enough to conquer a fortress world, but it's definitly going to cause significant damage. And a less defended world is definitly going to need help.