AoS NEW *rumor*

[Erta Wanderer]

might have been me. For both Teclis & the Gargants its the case that they are extremes in their particular niche who rely on their raw stats/basic warscroll rules to do their thing. Because they rely on raw stats & the basic rules on their warscroll there isn't much an opponent can do other than suffer through them. Which is frustrating when your prefered play-style is hard-countered by them as the Gargant/Lumineth player doesn't really need to do anything clever to take advantage of it.

this is true of every unit that is considered good. hammers are good because they take damage dealing to the extreme often at the expense of every thing else and rely on their raw stats to make your opponent deal with them in a certain way. anvils are good because they take defence to the extreme often at the expense of every thing else and rely on their raw stats to make your opponent deal with them in a certain way. i can go on AoS is made for speshalist

E.g. if you like bringing 1-2 minor wizards for magical support they're essentially going to be useless when facing Teclis, no matter what you do. The lumineth player doesn't really have to do anything to achieve this, Teclis just needs to exist.

yes if the oponent spends 3-4 times the points you do on wizards you can't compete with them in magic. that seems perfectly reasonable to me

Because these units occupy such an extreme in their niche they end up dictating how your opponent has to respond as there's only going to be a few viable options to respond to such an extreme with. Which isn't fun if you like a playstyle that doesn't fit in with those remaining viable options.

see above statement about hammers and anvils it's still true. if you don't like your units being countered then strategy is not the genre for you. doesn't matter what game you are playing be it starcraft magic yugioh or AoS. having one plan that works for every thing is never a option these games are made around meta and counter meta play, hard and soft counters are going to be a thing.

Now obviously this doesn't necesarly mean they're broken. Morathi is easy enough to deal with by shooting her for example. However, the fact remains that she still gets to dictate your movements for a few turns as no matter what you're going to have to deal those 3 wounds a turn if you want to take her out. Is that difficult or overpowered? No. But it does result in a situation where you're probably going to be forced to waste attacks on her because her heart of iron will absorb some damage. Now if that gets combined with it being 2 units with a shared healthpool you're going to waste even more attacks if the DoK player takes advantage of that.And there's fairly little you can actually do to avoid this. Which just kind of sucks.

yes this game is all about making your opponent deal with what you have and forcing bad match ups thats kind of the point of strategy games. and again no you don't have to waist attacks. splitting attacks or retrieting is a option and often a good option you play seraphon you should know this. the only thing "forcing" you to waste attacks is being out payed

 

[Canas]

this is true of every unit that is considered good. hammers are good because they take damage dealing to the extreme often at the expense of every thing else and rely on their raw stats to make your opponent deal with them in a certain way. anvils are good because they take defence to the extreme often at the expense of every thing else and rely on their raw stats to make your opponent deal with them in a certain way. i can go on AoS is made for speshalist

Yes and no. Of course say a hammer unit will be on the top end in terms of damage output. However they usually stay within a certain range. E.g. a buffed up horde of say witch aelves & a buffed up unit of say plague monks will do comperable damage. You're not going to see one hammer do 50 damage and the next hammer do 200 damage.

In the case of Teclis (or the gargants, or Morathi's iron heart + shared health pool) however they don't have a comparable statline/ruleset with similar units. They get a rule or stat-line that puts them completly in a league of their own. Which allows them to dictate how their opponent has to play around them, potentially invalidating playstyles that normally would still be valid against this particular unit type because they've taken a unit type and pushed it beyond its normal limits.

Essentially it's fine for units to specialize in a certain niche and hold distinct advantages over units specialised in a different niche. But within that specialisation the differences cannot be too big or you're going to run into issues.

yes if the oponent spends 3-4 times the points you do on wizards you can't compete with them in magic. that seems perfectly reasonable to me

Look, it's fine for him to be better than say two 100 point wizards and have a significant advantage. However, it is stupid that those two wizards are barely capable of doing anything magic related because they don't stand a real change of unbinding his spells and their own attempts at spellcasting automaticly get unbound or bounce of anti-magic aura.

Again; Teclis having an advantage is fine. Minor wizards being incapable of doing any magic simply because Teclis exists is not.

More in general; counters are fine and obviously a crucial part of strategy games, and even hard-counters have their place. But a counter that takes its natural advantages to such an extreme that it becomes such a hard-counter it essentially invalidates entire playstyles simply by existing is not fine, because at this point you're no longer fighting your opponent as much as you're fighting the game-design.

And before you point out "well then don't bring a X when facing Y cuz Y counters X" That doesn't really work given that you won't know what you'l face in a given match. It's not like starcraft where we can adapt our builds on the fly and swap from say tanks to infantry. Or even like yu-gi-oh where you can swap out some cards with your off-deck in between games. And even if you know the (local) meta and are sure you won't face Y it only takes one weirdo bringing Y anyway to ruin your day.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Yes and no. Of course say a hammer unit will be on the top end in terms of damage output. However they usually stay within a certain range. E.g. a buffed up horde of say witch aelves & a buffed up unit of say plague monks will do comperable damage. You're not going to see one hammer do 50 damage and the next hammer do 200 damage.

In the case of Teclis (or the gargants, or Morathi's iron heart + shared health pool) however they don't have a comparable statline/ruleset with similar units. They get a rule or stat-line that puts them completly in a league of their own. Which allows them to dictate how their opponent has to play around them, potentially invalidating playstyles that normally would still be valid against this particular unit type because they've taken a unit type and pushed it beyond its normal limits.

no tecles is in the league of super casters along with nagash kroak tzeench and hollow heart not realy a league of his own. and gartgants are just bad still don't know why you have a problem with them they are measurably worse then almost every thing else

Essentially it's fine for units to specialize in a certain niche and hold distinct advantages over units specialised in a different niche. But within that specialisation the differences cannot be too big or you're going to run into issues.

hasn't been a problem so far, nagash has been a thing for 3 years. and other things that are wieldy more powerful like flamers iron drakes and Hearth guard haven broken the game ether

Look, it's fine for him to be better than say two 100 point wizards and have a significant advantage. However, it is stupid that those two wizards are barely capable of doing anything magic related because they don't stand a real change of unbinding his spells and their own attempts at spellcasting automaticly get unbound or bounce of anti-magic aura.

Again; Teclis having an advantage is fine. Minor wizards being incapable of doing any magic simply because Teclis exists is not.

ok how would you fix it? only give him a +2 to cast? +2 is fairly common and already invalidates most casting giving your opponent a very hard time getting spells off they only have a 32% chance to roll higher then your average and about a 1 in 4 chance of getting a spell off. with most wizards that means 1 spell in a game. so this has been a "problem" for a while now. didn't star with teclis

More in general; counters are fine and obviously a crucial part of strategy games, and even hard-counters have their place. But a counter that takes its natural advantages to such an extreme that it becomes such a hard-counter it essentially invalidates entire playstyles simply by existing is not fine, because at this point you're no longer fighting your opponent as much as you're fighting the game-design.

i would like to introduce you to the color blue from magic it has this thing called counter spells that completely invalidate quite a few decks or burn decks that invalidate stampede decks. or in yugioh trick masters and hand traps that also make some playstyles unviable.

and it's fine those games are still well built and vastly popular

And before you point out "well then don't bring a X when facing Y cuz Y counters X" That doesn't really work given that you won't know what you'l face in a given match. It's not like starcraft where we can adapt our builds on the fly and swap from say tanks to infantry. Or even like yu-gi-oh where you can swap out some cards with your off-deck in between games. And even if you know the (local) meta and are sure you won't face Y it only takes one weirdo bringing Y anyway to ruin your day.

no i just say you probably shouldn't be bringing ancillary wizards at all. if your wizards can not compete then your points are better spent else where most armies that want to cast have the tools to do so and those that don't (looking at you sylvaneth) are widely seen as hard done by. and at what point does it become to much? +2 to cast? +3? we are by far the worst at abusing the magic game should we fix slann?

 

[Canas]

no tecles is in the league of super casters along with nagash kroak tzeench and hollow heart not realy a league of his own.

I'd argue Teclis is a seperate league from the other super casters. They simply bring absurd modifiers but are at least still subject to luck and in some cases to synergies being shot to bits or a damage table causing them to lose their modifiers, Teclis just flat out guarantees casts regardless of what happens. Both "leagues" have their problems though.

and gartgants are just bad still don't know why you have a problem with them they are measurably worse then almost every thing else

I'm not saying they're necessarily overpowered or even good. I'm saying that in a number of specific aspects they're outliers to the point of potentially causing issues by invalidating normally viable playstyles because said playstyle has no tools to deal with such extreme outliers on that particular aspect, even if it can deal with every other unit that specialises in that aspect but doesn't have the same extreme outlier values.

ok how would you fix it? only give him a +2 to cast? +2 is fairly common and already invalidates most casting giving your opponent a very hard time getting spells off they only have a 32% chance to roll higher then your average and about a 1 in 4 chance of getting a spell off. with most wizards that means 1 spell in a game. so this has been a "problem" for a while now. didn't star with teclis

True, magic in AoS in general is kind of a mess. Fixing it is going to take more than just fixing Teclis.

As for Teclis specificly;
Defensivly I'd take away either his auto-unbind or the anti-magic aura. One of the two is plenty defensivly.
Offensivly I'd lower simply his casting values a bit and allow all his casts to be unbound. For example make it 1 spell, casting value of 12, 2 spells casting value of 10, 3+ casting value of 8.

This way he can always be unbound, giving his opponent at least a chance even if it isn't exactly a good chance. But it also means he can't just auto-cast everything. If he wants to cast 4 spells there will be spells he won't reach the casting value for. He's still going to be one of the single most reliable casters and outside the likes of Kroak or Nagash very few casters will be able to consistently stand up to him.

i would like to introduce you to the color blue from magic it has this thing called counter spells that completely invalidate quite a few decks or burn decks that invalidate stampede decks. or in yugioh trick masters and hand traps that also make some playstyles unviable.

and it's fine those games are still well built and vastly popular

I know, it's the main reason I despise the competitive scene of those TCG's. Nothing is quite as lame as a game where every single card you play immeadiatly gets countered because your opponent happens to play the right type of deck.

As for those games being populair. Imho, the people who are attracted to that are more attracted to the deck-building aspect than they are to the actual card game. Which is fine, whatever floats your boat. But essentially what seems to be happening is that the actual game is suffering in favour of having a complex/interesting meta-game. It's just kind of a shame when you're more interested the "real" game of playing cards and not as much in the meta-game of deckbuilding, as in these cases the meta-game has become so important that it's drowning out the "real" game. Essentially, it's become more important to build a deck that fits into the meta than it is to be good at the actual card-game, which doesn't really interest me.

no i just say you probably shouldn't be bringing ancillary wizards at all. if your wizards can not compete then your points are better spent else where most armies that want to cast have the tools to do so and those that don't (looking at you sylvaneth) are widely seen as hard done by.

I disagree, but fair enough. Imho, ancillary units should always be a viable extra tool in your toolbox and you shouldn't be forced to go all-in on a given mechanic just to be able to get some value out of an ancillary unit like a basic wizard.

we are by far the worst at abusing the magic game should we fix slann?

Yes, yes we should. Again, in general magic is kind of a mess, and we're not much of an exception.

 

[Putzfrau]

New morathi costs 600. New dok are incredible, and she is fine but you probably won't see her in top lists. Just too many points.

Apparently thats what the initial rumblings seem to indicate. Probably get a better idea in the coming weeks as more people start figuring it out.

 

[4idvet]

Around 600 was about what everybody was thinking points wise for her so I’m ok with that. Honestly I’m pretty happy with everything in the book so far. Gives me hope it our Seraphon get featured in one we may get mount traits.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

with the new lore do you think DoK will stay a part of order? she kinda just declared war an them.

 

[Killer Angel]

with the new lore do you think DoK will stay a part of order? she kinda just declared war an them.

That would be interesting to have them change. They were never truly part of the Order.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

ya and she literally freed slaanesh so not sure how welcome she is in order any more

 

[Canas]

ya and she literally freed slaanesh so not sure how welcome she is in order any more

wait what, she actually freed Slaanesh and didn't just accidently screw up?

That would be interesting to have them change. They were never truly part of the Order.

In fairness the grand allegiances where more about philosophically aligned forces than about actual allies. There already are constant wars between the subfactions. They only unite on occasion to deal with a common foe.

The only exception being CoS, KO & SCE and maybe the lumineth, those are the only ones who seem to be proper allies. Everyone else regularly attacks their "friends." Seraphon attack order whenever the great plan demands it. Idoneth steal souls. Fyreslayer's loyalty is surprisingly trivial to be bought, even mid-battle. Sylvaneth attack anyone who tries to cut down a tree. DoK activly sacrifice random people.

Maybe they'l drop the pretends of the grand allegiances entirely now. They haven't been all that relevant in quite a while anyway from a gameplay perspective with faction allegiance abilities being too powerfull to pass over.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

wait what, she actually freed Slaanesh and didn't just accidently screw up?

yep looks like it was a side effect of the ritual for her to become a goddess and she just didn't care.

 

[Canas]

yep looks like it was a side effect of the ritual for her to become a goddess and she just didn't care.

Well that's just stupid... You'd think she'd at least care about setting free her most important enemy. Or is she so stupidly arrogant that she's already under the dillusion that simply being a goddes makes her more powerfull than Slaanesh?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

The only exception being CoS, KO & SCE and maybe the lumineth, those are the only ones who seem to be proper allies.
...
Fyreslayer's loyalty is surprisingly trivial to be bought, even mid-battle. Sylvaneth attack anyone who tries to cut down a tree. DoK activly sacrifice random people.

Kharadron are more mercenary than Fyreslayers. Kharadron will fight for anyone who pays them enough aether-gold, while Fyreslayers only betray those who break the deals they made with them.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Well that's just stupid... You'd think she'd at least care about setting free her most important enemy. Or is she so stupidly arrogant that she's already under the dillusion that simply being a goddes makes her more powerfull than Slaanesh?

Probably the latter - she probably thinks that if she reached godhood she would stand some sort of chance against Slaanesh, even though the Dark Prince is far more powerful than she'd ever be, while in her current state she's definitely no match for him.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

with the new lore do you think DoK will stay a part of order? she kinda just declared war an them.

That would be interesting to have them change. They were never truly part of the Order.

ya and she literally freed slaanesh so not sure how welcome she is in order any more

It would make a lot of sense if GW moved DoK over to Chaos allegiance. Though DoK hate Slaanesh's guts, Khorne does too yet his forces are still happily in the Chaos allegiance alongside Slaanesh. What's more Khaine is pretty much the Elf version of Khorne, so DoK are pretty much female elf Khorne cultists, and DoK are inherently evil compared to the other Order factions who are different shades of Good/Neutral, so if Morathi has freed Slaanesh as well there is literally no reason why DoK should stay in Order anymore.

Additionally it would help reduce the overload of Order factions that we have compared to the other Grand Alliances - moving DoK to Chaos allegiance would make Order and Chaos 8 factions apiece with Death and Destruction having 4 apiece, which gives a nice balance.

 

[Canas]

Kharadron are more mercenary than Fyreslayers. Kharadron will fight for anyone who pays them enough aether-gold, while Fyreslayers only betray those who break the deals they made with them.

I have yet to see a story about the KO where they betray their current employees. Or let themselfs be hired by someone who will clearly kill them once their former employer is dead. Or get easily tricked into believing their current employer isn't going to pay them by the guy who's literally stealing the gold they're supposed to be paid with. Let alone for an entire army to be bribed like that without anyone pointing out how obvious a set-up this is.

God I dislike that story. Not only does it make it look like their oaths are worth very little, but it also just makes them look like idiots to be manipulated that easily and in such an obvious way. It makes them terrible mercenaries.

Also, are there actual stories of KO being hired by a non-order faction (or obvious evil guy)? I think there's some where they get tricked by a chaos wizard who's hiding behind illusions, but nothing where the guy hiring them just straight up admits to being chaos/undead/destruction. I mean they're mercenaries sure, and I'm sure they've sacked a city or two for gold. But they at least seem to at least be smart enough not to switch sides mid-battle (and thus ruin their credibility as mercenaries) and to not be hired by an obviously evil & scheming character who'l backstab them at the first possible oppertunity.

It would make a lot of sense if GW moved DoK over to Chaos allegiance. Though DoK hate Slaanesh's guts, Khorne does too yet his forces are still happily in the Chaos allegiance alongside Slaanesh. What's more Khaine is pretty much the Elf version of Khorne, so DoK are pretty much female elf Khorne cultists, and DoK are inherently evil compared to the other Order factions who are different shades of Good/Neutral, so if Morathi has freed Slaanesh as well there is literally no reason why DoK should stay in Order anymore.

I've never quite understood why DoK where order to begin with. As you say they're pretty much literally just Khorne cultist, just with more snakes and they have actual magic. But they're just as obsessed with combat & ritual blood sacrifices. They basicly just seem like what'd happen if you'd let chaos actualy build a civilization instead of it just being roving bands of warriors.

I
Additionally it would help reduce the overload of Order factions that we have compared to the other Grand Alliances - moving DoK to Chaos allegiance would make Order and Chaos 8 factions apiece with Death and Destruction having 4 apiece, which gives a nice balance.

mwha, Undead might as well be 1 faction given that they all owe allegiance to Nagash. If we want a bit more balance we'd need some Undead factions with actual internal strive within the grand allegiance.

 

[Killer Angel]

yep looks like it was a side effect of the ritual for her to become a goddess and she just didn't care.

If the thing comes to "common" knowledge, I suppose Sigmar could directly hunt her and i can see DoK becoming right now one of the "kill on sight" enemies by all the Order forces.

While some Order armies are allies and some other ones can fight between themselves (Sylvaneth vs CoS, and so on), all Order armies would never actively betray the grand allegiance by helping the Chaos in such a way (no, not even the so-called "mercenaries". They don't sell their axes to daemon princes)

 

[Canas]

no, not even the so-called "mercenaries". They don't sell their axes to daemon princes

They did sell them to Volkmortian, or something similar in importance, though, not that much better than a demon prince
But yeah, at least it's only ever 1 band of mercenaries at a time that'l ever do that, not the entire race as a whole.

On that note, is there at least some internal rebellion within the DoK once they realize what Morathi has done?

 

[Just A Skink]

Can I sidetrack to ask a brief lore update/opinion? Are all of the other Chaos gods locked up or free? What would freeing Slaanesh actually do? I mean AoS already has the Hedonites of Slaanesh and a Keeper of Secrets. Will it just make the elven factions quake in their slender boots?

 

[Canas]

Can I sidetrack to ask a brief lore update/opinion? Are all of the other Chaos gods locked up or free? What would freeing Slaanesh actually do? I mean AoS already has the Hedonites of Slaanesh and a Keeper of Secrets. Will it just make the elven factions quake in their slender boots?

The other gods are free.

Up till now Slaanesh had been imprisoned. This meant that his/her/its followers were weaker. Leaving the hedonites as the weakest chaos group. The main thing the Hedonites where doing was either try to free Slaanesh or take his/her/its place as a god.

Presumably with Slaanesh free again the hedonites will become more powerfull and organised and assault the various aelfs so Slaanesh can eat them again.