AoS Seraphon vs. Lumineth - Teclis is a beast!

[Kilvakar]

Found this battle report on the Seraphon vs. the Lumineth Realm Lords. Found it interesting that Teclis was basically able to come back (at a very low bracket as well) and pull of a decisive win against a very "meta" Seraphon list. It's the only one I've seen so far, but it appears that the pointy elves are definitely going to be difficult for us to deal with, even when playing as meta as possible.

 

[Nart]

pointy elves are definitely going to be difficult for us to deal with, even when playing as meta as possible.

Not really. They crumble to mortal wounds and we have plenty. Kroak is one of a few wizards, who can create troubles for teclis. Lumineth has lots of mortal wounds and good character sniping, but otherwise they have close to no damage. They are definitely a tier 1 army, but Seraphon are plain better, IMO.

 

[Kilvakar]

The problem is that killing Teclis will always be very hard, and it looks like you'll always be dealing with the problem of having to either focus on the infantry while Teclis and the other heroes severely weaken your army, and they'll probably come back strong in the late game. Or you focus on them hard early, but the rest of the army gets to take all the objectives and keeps their lead till the end.

I've been trying to watch more reports on the SoB and Lumineth, and so far they've both almost always won. Lumineth in particular seem to have a slow start, but have always come back and won in turn 4-5, while the SoB just table everyone, lol!

 

[Nart]

If your opponent plays too conservative with Teclis, just kill everything else. Lumineth have low wounds and average to bad saves. Aetherquartz works once per phase per unit. Syar is a bit better. They also have low bravery and no good way of generating CP, so forcing battleshock on multiple units is very possible - Cathallar cannot save everything. Kill everything, but Teclis and just go for objectives.

 

[Putzfrau]

Not really. They crumble to mortal wounds and we have plenty. Kroak is one of a few wizards, who can create troubles for teclis. Lumineth has lots of mortal wounds and good character sniping, but otherwise they have close to no damage. They are definitely a tier 1 army, but Seraphon are plain better, IMO.

Teclis will just bounce mortals back on you. Kroak only creates trouble for teclis in the sense that 4 global unbinds at +2 are amazing. Teclis's existence means you're going to have to be really careful with how you use your damage spells because you run the huge risk of him just ignoring all your damage and bouncing a ton of mortals back into your face.

I think your typical fangs of sotek lists will actually struggle against LRL. They under drop us, archers pop skink heroes ez and teclis makes kroak's damage much, much more difficult to use effectively.

 

[Nart]

Kroak only creates trouble for teclis in the sense that 4 global unbinds at +2 are amazing.

That's what I'm talking about. Kroak+Slann will make them to deal with universal denies. Loads of CP means that Total Eclipse won't be hurting you that much. More importantly, you will have good chance to unbind power of hysh, which is way easier than teclis spell, but cuts their damage in half. But yes, you have to be very careful after first turn when throwing spells at them.

They under drop us, archers pop skink heroes ez and teclis makes kroak's damage much, much more difficult to use effectively.

I didn't have any trouble putting skink heroes outside of 42". But, I guess, DT is a bit better against LRL, because they cannot properly screen. Salamanders are anathema to thier infantry.

Also, Teclis' auras are not that huge compared to, say, Katakros' ones. They cannot be everywhere and stay safe. Cathallar is pretty easy to snipe. It is not easy match-up, but I am sure that it is in seraphon favor.

 

[Putzfrau]

I didn't have any trouble putting skink heroes outside of 42".
.

I don't know how 42'' archers and 16+18 range teclis aura are easy to outrange without totally giving away the first 2 turns of the game.

 

[Nart]

I don't know how 42'' archers and 16+18 range teclis aura are easy to outrange without totally giving away the first 2 turns of the game.

Through teleportation, summoning and ambushes. That's way DT is better. Also, heroes may not need be as close to skinks as skinks to border of the territory. You may place skinks agressive and still buff them, without giving up heroes. Watch out for cavalry, though. Just keep in mind, that speed of hysh can be given only to a single unit.

 

[Putzfrau]

Through teleportation, summoning and ambushes. That's way DT is better. Also, heroes may not need be as close to skinks as skinks to border of the territory. You may place skinks agressive and still buff them, without giving up heroes. Watch out for cavalry, though. Just keep in mind, that speed of hysh can be given only to a single unit.

42 inch range archers placed centrally will basically hit anywhere on the board. DT with salamanders (instead of the more common skink spam fangs lists) definitely has more play into lumineth just because you can obviously avoid a lot of these problems but for whatever reason that's not super popular anymore, so was just trying to go off the most common competitive list we are seeing.

 

[Kilvakar]

Generally Fangs of Sotek is more popular because the retreat and shooting with Skinks is really good, especially since so many armies are able to move and charge us 1st turn. I agree that DT might be a better option against Lumineth because you can keep your most important units safe turn 1 and drop them where they can do the most work against the enemy.

I'm also wondering how Coalesced Knight spam might work against them. Take a Firelance battalion and maybe some Terradons and try and hit them super hard turn 1.

 

[Nart]

but for whatever reason that's not super popular anymore

FoS are just plain better in terms of damage and board control for most of the armies. But if the meta is saturated with lumineth, I can see seraphon shifting back to DT.

New shootcasts concern me more, tbh. They can appear wherever they want and have high range.

As for lumineth - they are very dicy. If you can unbind speed of hysh, searing storm, protection of teclis and as much power of hysh as possible on their first turn, lumineth are basically helpless. It also depends on how good is your opponent at throwing 4+ to backfire spells at you. If stellar tempest/geminids go through, it will be devastating for them.

I'm also wondering how Coalesced Knight spam might work against them. Take a Firelance battalion and maybe some Terradons and try and hit them super hard turn 1.

I don't believe, that coalesced stand any chance against LRL. They depend on CP and Teclis has total eclipse. They have strong spells that play with bravery. They are good at character sniping and saurus lists need more of them.

If you are tailoring against lumineths, I'd go for builds which are good without hero support and have mobility. Kroak+Slann+Astrolith+guard combo is great. Salamanders, Chamelons and Kroxigors deal good damage. Kroxigors are especially interesting, because they have 4 wounds each, which means that riders won't have much attacks against them. What about dread saurian? It can tank lots of damage, deny their already poor movement, deal MW on charge, reduce already poor bravery. Use several chameleon units/salamanders to chip wounds from different units and then use Roar of Ruin and watch their army run away. Even razordons can see some play. Lumineth are bad at screening, don't have good saves and very high cost per wound. Razordons are cheaper and have easier time to reach cathallar/archers

 

[Putzfrau]

As for lumineth - they are very dicy. If you can unbind speed of hysh, searing storm, protection of teclis and as much power of hysh as possible on their first turn, lumineth are basically helpless. It also depends on how good is your opponent at throwing 4+ to backfire spells at you. If stellar tempest/geminids go through, it will be devastating for them.



I don't believe, that coalesced stand any chance against LRL. They depend on CP and Teclis has total eclipse. They have strong spells that play with bravery. They are good at character sniping and saurus lists need more of them.

I dont think "reliably unbind all their good spells and hope they unbind none of yours while also failing to bounce mortals back at you" is a very consistent strategy that you can count on working in your favor. Id much rather play a safer strategy of minimizing the amount of spells you need to throw to win against LRL or understand the range limitations and really be conscious of the risk youre taking. IMO, planning on out magicing teclis is not the win condition i would aim for.

On the knights, dunno if theyd be any better but fangs lists rely on characters way more than knights. Knights still do something if you kill the starpriest and skinks dont. Saurus heroes also have more wounds and a better save, coalesced ignores bravery modifiers and Koatls just generates more CP, so those points are also not as much of an issue.

Assuming you aren't playing a salamander heavy DT list (which has its own bad matchups) LRL are a matchup you'll need to watch out for. I think the biggest thing is just understanding that they are insanely slow. As the faster army we'll be able to pick the fights and will generally have more models. Focus on the objective game and use your superior speed and board control to your advantage. Terradons are a great way to pop the warden screens and start getting shots on the squishier archers. Focusing on keeping your slann and wizards in a position to unbind key spells and make sure you're in a position to capitalize on it when it happens.

 

[JscoobertDoobert]

On the knights, dunno if theyd be any better but fangs lists rely on characters way more than knights. Knights still do something if you kill the starpriest and skinks dont. Saurus heroes also have more wounds and a better save, coalesced ignores bravery modifiers and Koatls just generates more CP, so those points are also not as much of an issue.

The bravery modifier immunity doesn’t help from what I’ve experienced as the cathallar modifies the battleshock roll not the bravery. The way it’s written you just act as if the guys you killed were part of your unit instead when you roll battleshock.

 

[Putzfrau]

The bravery modifier immunity doesn’t help from what I’ve experienced as the cathallar modifies the battleshock roll not the bravery. The way it’s written you just act as if the guys you killed were part of your unit instead when you roll battleshock.

Referring to bouncing the -1 bravery, not the Cathallar's unique ability to force a battleshock test on an enemy unit. Bravery 10 doesnt really help mitigate that anymore than Bravery 8 does.

 

[Nikolaj Kirk Jordansen]

How do people see us dealing with LRL and Teclis in 3.0 and with the new GHB?

I think skink spam sounds viable again I.e. due to bounty hunters and gallatein veterans keyword - could that be an option?