AoS How to win a Seraphon Vs Seraphon Matchup?

[Wacko Jacko]

So I've been playing in a local escalation league, and thanks to my last post on the forums, using your advice I've gone W-3/ L-0 for the past 3 weeks, however there's another player who's also gone 3/0 and guess what he's playing.

Seraphon, Baby

I just wanted to spit ball some ideas and feedback and see what opinions were on winning these types of matchups?

I understand what our weaknesses are, Mortals, Rend, ETC.

The list he's ran for the past 3 weeks has been Coalesced/ Koatls Claw, and I have a feeling he isn't about to change tactics.

He runs Scar Vet, Saurus, Saurus Knights, and he only just ran a bastiladon last week.


What are some tips in building a list against this type of army?

Should I just throw Coalesced Right back at him, Or should I throw teleporting blobs of 40 skinks with Starborne/Fangs of Sotek?

Thanks for your feedback guys, would love to hear what experienced seraphon players think.

 

[Tav]

Skink blobs for sure, you want to get all the mortal wounds out. The most important thing will be to screen. Try and chip away at the carnosaur a bit to reduce their threat.

as long as you keep the skink blobs safe from a charge then you should out damage them.
Just keep plenty of CP for the fangs of sotek stand and shoot, that alone is probably the best tool against the koatls claw knights

 

[Grotpunter]

How many points are you running? Are you playing with objectives at all or just last man standing?

The strength of Coalesced is certainly Scaly Skin - Skink blobs completely ignore this since its all damage 1 attacks, and Saurus have no means of mitigating the MWs (Skinks dont have either tbh). I dont have experience with Saurus Knights myself (paging @Putzfrau ) but they are fast, can pack a good amount of punch but they fight honest. If you get to shoot with 40 Skinks after they have charged you, there wont be that many models left standing to actually hit your guys. If you get to retreat on a 4+, that's even better.

I dont know the rules of your league but a part of escalation to me is that you keep building onto your army, not switching it up entirely every time. If you have played Skinks I would continue to do so unless you hate the playstyle.

 

[LizardWizard]

Starborne for sure. his only multi damage unit will be the Bastiladon. Having 10 Bravery and teleports are much more valuable.

 

[Putzfrau]

Knights are gonna struggle against the skink spam fangs lists. Lots of 1 damage shots with mortal wounds is rough. Depends on what the rest of his army looks like, but that would be my suggestion. Just gotta be careful about getting alpha'd (assuming you don't start the game with a CP). Knights have a pretty gnarly threat range if you get a little lucky on the 3d6 charge.

 

[Wacko Jacko]

Skink blobs for sure, you want to get all the mortal wounds out. The most important thing will be to screen. Try and chip away at the carnosaur a bit to reduce their threat.

as long as you keep the skink blobs safe from a charge then you should out damage them.
Just keep plenty of CP for the fangs of sotek stand and shoot, that alone is probably the best tool against the koatls claw knights

I agree, this is my current List

• Lord Kroak + Balewind Vortex+Souls Snare Shackles
• 1x Saurus Guard
• 2x 30 Skinks with Boltspitters and shields
• Astrolith Bearer
• 2x Skink Priests
• 1x Skink Star Seer
• 3x Razordon huntingback (One Unit)

Fangs Of Sotek/ Starborn.

I feel like the Razordons are great to deal with his charges, they don't seem to do much damage, however with the minus 1 damage from coalesced razordons are probably better from a points perspective?

 

[Wacko Jacko]

How many points are you running? Are you playing with objectives at all or just last man standing?

The strength of Coalesced is certainly Scaly Skin - Skink blobs completely ignore this since its all damage 1 attacks, and Saurus have no means of mitigating the MWs (Skinks dont have either tbh). I dont have experience with Saurus Knights myself (paging @Putzfrau ) but they are fast, can pack a good amount of punch but they fight honest. If you get to shoot with 40 Skinks after they have charged you, there wont be that many models left standing to actually hit your guys. If you get to retreat on a 4+, that's even better.

I dont know the rules of your league but a part of escalation to me is that you keep building onto your army, not switching it up entirely every time. If you have played Skinks I would continue to do so unless you hate the playstyle.

Playing Objectives, at 1,500 pts for the grand final.

unsure of the battle plan. Just came to you guys for your infinite wisdom as everyone at my local store agrees that my opponent is a bit of a jack ass.

Army wise the TO kinda lets us do what we want between game as it's a beginners tournament (Except for the aforementioned jack ass above, who's already won legitimate tournaments)

planning to fight cheese with cheese and hope for the best

 

[Grotpunter]

I agree, this is my current List

• Lord Kroak + Balewind Vortex+Souls Snare Shackles
• 1x Saurus Guard
• 2x 30 Skinks with Boltspitters and shields
• Astrolith Bearer
• 2x Skink Priests
• 1x Skink Star Seer
• 3x Razordon huntingback (One Unit)

Fangs Of Sotek/ Starborn.

I feel like the Razordons are great to deal with his charges, they don't seem to do much damage, however with the minus 1 damage from coalesced razordons are probably better from a points perspective?

Not sure if the Starseer is a typo, but you really need Starpriest for the Skinks. It is a lot of extra damage from MWs since it is in addition. Not sure you "need" 2 Priests, but you could double up and have 2 pairs of heroes follow 1 blob of Skinks around. I would do something like below. 1 CP for 50 pts is neat so you start with one in case he builds his list to alpha, either to shoot and retreat or for Inspiring Presence. It also smoothes out the CP generation in case your Kroak/Starpriests flop. I have had games where I gained 0 CP in turn 1 from those 3 guys, but the bought CP meant I could buff 1 unit with the Skink Priest and have 1 CP for Parting Shot on the fully buffed guys.

You can make Kroak the general to generate 3D3 summoning points a turn, or make the Priest the general for a free additional CP a turn which would give you even more CPs to play around with but then you "only" generate 2D3 summoning points a turn.

I personally dont bother too much with Celestial Harmony and would rather double up on Hand of Glory. Obviously you cant cast it twice, but it means you can buff at least 1 unit instead of having your Starpriest out of range.

You could also dump 1 Skink Priest and bring the Bound Geminids. This means you can throw Geminids in his face and the other Starpriest can make a unit -1 to hit for a total of -2 to hit. The Starpriest warscroll spell is really strong, and thats why I dont mind doubling up on Hand of Glory.

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Fangs of Sotek

Leaders
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
- Artefact: Serpent God Dagger
Skink Priest (70)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Star Rituals
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Priest (70)

Battleline
40 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
40 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1470 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119

This is basically the list I run where I add 2 Bastiladons to round it out at 2.000 pts and switch 1 Skink Priest for Bound Geminids. It is incredible strong.

Basically you have Kroak pop up on his Balewind and start picking at his heroes turn 1 with Comet's Call. Stellar Tempest his biggest unit. Mystic Shield a blob of 40 Skinks. Then have each blob of 40 Skinks push out with the pair of heroes behind them with 12" to the frontline of the Skinks. This ensures you can buff them the following turn. The 10 Skinks you can use for screen or just dont care since you have Parting Shot if/when you get charged - You can teleport the 10 Skinks somewhere to steal an objective early turn 1 or turn 2 and force him to waste time on the 10 Skinks.

Try to keep a Starpriest within 12" of Kroak, since you can channel his spells through the Starpriest for extended range. This creates a situation where you slowly chip at his heroes/units and if he comes close and charges, you will shoot him to pieces and possibly retreat. If he loses priority he is likely sitting within Celestial Deliverance radius and will be bombed by Kroak + shooting in your following turn.

 

[Putzfrau]

planning to fight cheese with cheese and hope for the best

Koatls claw is about the least cheesy seraphon build out there.

 

[Wacko Jacko]

Koatls claw is about the least cheesy seraphon build out there.

We're playing on half size boards as most of us haven't played a single game of AOS, so the past 3 games he's turn one charged on the roll off. and tabled every opponent he's had in turn 1.

Admittedly feels a bit cheesy to watch, but hey.

Each to their own.

 

[Putzfrau]

We're playing on half size boards as most of us haven't played a single game of AOS, so the past 3 games he's turn one charged on the roll off. and tabled every opponent he's had in turn 1.

Admittedly feels a bit cheesy to watch, but hey.

Each to their own.

Half sized long ways i'm assuming? That shouldn't make the charge range any closer for him. If he's taking top of turn 1 and tabling people, you need to be more conscious of threat ranges and deploy out of range of his charge. Knights without a 3d6 charge (which will be 1 unit) can only declare a charge within 20 inches. 3d6 obviously increases that to 26. Deploy outside of 26 and he literally can't touch you turn 1.

Edit: Don't mean to come off snotty. Just think its always better to look at the game and how its being played, rather than immediately go to the list. Sounds like people are just deploying on the line and the dude is charging them. There's nothing more honest in this game than deploying on the line and charging straight forward into another army that deployed on the line.

Mitigating that is 100% to do with playstyle and 0% to do with list design. Honestly, knights aren't even that fast so if he's able to do this so should a lot of other armies.

 

[Wacko Jacko]

Half sized long ways i'm assuming? That shouldn't make the charge range any closer for him. If he's taking top of turn 1 and tabling people, you need to be more conscious of threat ranges and deploy out of range of his charge. Knights without a 3d6 charge (which will be 1 unit) can only declare a charge within 20 inches. 3d6 obviously increases that to 26. Deploy outside of 26 and he literally can't touch you turn 1.

Edit: Don't mean to come off snotty. Just think its always better to look at the game and how its being played, rather than immediately go to the list. Sounds like people are just deploying on the line and the dude is charging them. There's nothing more honest in this game than deploying on the line and charging straight forward into another army that deployed on the line.

Mitigating that is 100% to do with playstyle and 0% to do with list design. Honestly, knights aren't even that fast so if he's able to do this so should a lot of other armies.

Yes it doesn't make charge range shorter but it leaves less room to manoeuvre behind terrain and with objectives added into the mix everyone one of these first game players believes they are doing themselves a disservice by not deploying on the line in order to get to the objective first.

A lot of these other players are 12-16 year olds who have no concept on what other armies do let alone their own.

All of the things you are saying are valid, yes age of sigmar is a thinking mans game

But with every other tournament player having this be their first game, its very easy to say "you shouldn't deploy on the line" being as experienced as you sound.

When in actual fact this is their first game.

I think it just rubs me the wrong way to take advantage of new players and letting turn one charges happen while not offering "hey maybe dont deploy there, my knights have bomb ass range"

Food for thought, sure if your that kinda guy and wants to play the rules as written sure.

But i feel that social games like this should take into account other peoples enjoyment as well.

 

[Wacko Jacko]

Not sure if the Starseer is a typo, but you really need Starpriest for the Skinks. It is a lot of extra damage from MWs since it is in addition. Not sure you "need" 2 Priests, but you could double up and have 2 pairs of heroes follow 1 blob of Skinks around. I would do something like below. 1 CP for 50 pts is neat so you start with one in case he builds his list to alpha, either to shoot and retreat or for Inspiring Presence. It also smoothes out the CP generation in case your Kroak/Starpriests flop. I have had games where I gained 0 CP in turn 1 from those 3 guys, but the bought CP meant I could buff 1 unit with the Skink Priest and have 1 CP for Parting Shot on the fully buffed guys.

You can make Kroak the general to generate 3D3 summoning points a turn, or make the Priest the general for a free additional CP a turn which would give you even more CPs to play around with but then you "only" generate 2D3 summoning points a turn.

I personally dont bother too much with Celestial Harmony and would rather double up on Hand of Glory. Obviously you cant cast it twice, but it means you can buff at least 1 unit instead of having your Starpriest out of range.

You could also dump 1 Skink Priest and bring the Bound Geminids. This means you can throw Geminids in his face and the other Starpriest can make a unit -1 to hit for a total of -2 to hit. The Starpriest warscroll spell is really strong, and thats why I dont mind doubling up on Hand of Glory.

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Fangs of Sotek

Leaders
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
- Artefact: Serpent God Dagger
Skink Priest (70)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Star Rituals
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Priest (70)

Battleline
40 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
40 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1470 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119

This is basically the list I run where I add 2 Bastiladons to round it out at 2.000 pts and switch 1 Skink Priest for Bound Geminids. It is incredible strong.

Basically you have Kroak pop up on his Balewind and start picking at his heroes turn 1 with Comet's Call. Stellar Tempest his biggest unit. Mystic Shield a blob of 40 Skinks. Then have each blob of 40 Skinks push out with the pair of heroes behind them with 12" to the frontline of the Skinks. This ensures you can buff them the following turn. The 10 Skinks you can use for screen or just dont care since you have Parting Shot if/when you get charged - You can teleport the 10 Skinks somewhere to steal an objective early turn 1 or turn 2 and force him to waste time on the 10 Skinks.

Try to keep a Starpriest within 12" of Kroak, since you can channel his spells through the Starpriest for extended range. This creates a situation where you slowly chip at his heroes/units and if he comes close and charges, you will shoot him to pieces and possibly retreat. If he loses priority he is likely sitting within Celestial Deliverance radius and will be bombed by Kroak + shooting in your following turn.

Me likey, how do you feel about the razordons?

Or is just more SKINK better value?

 

[Grotpunter]

Yes it doesn't make charge range shorter but it leaves less room to manoeuvre behind terrain and with objectives added into the mix everyone one of these first game players believes they are doing themselves a disservice by not deploying on the line in order to get to the objective first.

A lot of these other players are 12-16 year olds who have no concept on what other armies do let alone their own.

All of the things you are saying are valid, yes age of sigmar is a thinking mans game

But with every other tournament player having this be their first game, its very easy to say "you shouldn't deploy on the line" being as experienced as you sound.

When in actual fact this is their first game.

I think it just rubs me the wrong way to take advantage of new players and letting turn one charges happen while not offering "hey maybe dont deploy there, my knights have bomb ass range"

Food for thought, sure if your that kinda guy and wants to play the rules as written sure.

But i feel that social games like this should take into account other peoples enjoyment as well.

We had a guy bring a Frostlord on Stonehorn to the first game of 400 pts. Turn 1 charged and wiped his opponent. At 800 he brought 2 and did the same etc. At no point did he suggest to consider the threat range. I think a part of escalation league is helping new players learn, so Im totally with you on this. It is a stinky move to just clean the table after 15 mins when the other guy has spent time painting his shit, packed it and showed up eagerly wanting to play some AoS.

 

[Putzfrau]

Yes it doesn't make charge range shorter but it leaves less room to manoeuvre behind terrain and with objectives added into the mix everyone one of these first game players believes they are doing themselves a disservice by not deploying on the line in order to get to the objective first.

A lot of these other players are 12-16 year olds who have no concept on what other armies do let alone their own.

All of the things you are saying are valid, yes age of sigmar is a thinking mans game

But with every other tournament player having this be their first game, its very easy to say "you shouldn't deploy on the line" being as experienced as you sound.

When in actual fact this is their first game.

I think it just rubs me the wrong way to take advantage of new players and letting turn one charges happen while not offering "hey maybe dont deploy there, my knights have bomb ass range"

Food for thought, sure if your that kinda guy and wants to play the rules as written sure.

But i feel that social games like this should take into account other peoples enjoyment as well.

I completely agree, but it can be a little rude to just tell other players what to do without them asking. When I lose to better players I always talk to them about the game afterwards.

I also don't know anything of the situation, the criticism could be totally deserved. Just didn't seem fair to me to call the dude cheese for doing nothing other than moving up and charging. If he's deliberately taking advantage of new players, thats a different situation entirely. Good luck in your game man.

 

[Grotpunter]

Me likey, how do you feel about the razordons?

Or is just more SKINK better value?

Razordons are pretty poop imo., but at the end of the day FoS is so strong that once you have your core (Kroak, Skink heroes , 2x40 Skinks) it doesnt really matter what you use to fill out the last few points. I opt'd to go for Bastiladons because they have a 32" threat range in turn 1. The damage outpit isnt insane, but it can threaten heroes and cause your opponent to deploy in a funky way. They are also incredible against Tzeentch, which is one of the current top dogs too. The damage 3 is pretty strong against their low wound heroes and they can also put a serious dent into Kairos or LoC. The Tzeentch guys I play against are so afraid of them that they used everything they have turn 1 to take them off the board, leaving my remaining forces intact.

 

[Tav]

Razordons are pretty poop imo., but at the end of the day FoS is so strong that once you have your core (Kroak, Skink heroes , 2x40 Skinks) it doesnt really matter what you use to fill out the last few points. I opt'd to go for Bastiladons because they have a 32" threat range in turn 1. The damage outpit isnt insane, but it can threaten heroes and cause your opponent to deploy in a funky way. They are also incredible against Tzeentch, which is one of the current top dogs too. The damage 3 is pretty strong against their low wound heroes and they can also put a serious dent into Kairos or LoC. The Tzeentch guys I play against are so afraid of them that they used everything they have turn 1 to take them off the board, leaving my remaining forces intact.

Im a big fan of bastiladons, they are an interesting unit because the survivability is such a big factor in whats good about them, sure they dont do incredible burst damage like some other things can do, but they have a great range and will put consistent pressure on your opponent until they invest in taking it down.

 

[Wacko Jacko]

Razordons are pretty poop imo., but at the end of the day FoS is so strong that once you have your core (Kroak, Skink heroes , 2x40 Skinks) it doesnt really matter what you use to fill out the last few points. I opt'd to go for Bastiladons because they have a 32" threat range in turn 1. The damage outpit isnt insane, but it can threaten heroes and cause your opponent to deploy in a funky way. They are also incredible against Tzeentch, which is one of the current top dogs too. The damage 3 is pretty strong against their low wound heroes and they can also put a serious dent into Kairos or LoC. The Tzeentch guys I play against are so afraid of them that they used everything they have turn 1 to take them off the board, leaving my remaining forces intact.

Do you think in this instance, against coalesced a bastiladon wins over razordons?

But you're probably right its probably smarter to take more skinks to prevent going down to Less than 15 models in a hurry and pump out two attacks per model while you can?

 

[Putzfrau]

Do you think in this instance, against coalesced a bastiladon wins over razordons?

But you're probably right its probably smarter to take more skinks to prevent going down to Less than 15 models in a hurry and pump out two attacks per model while you can?

Razordons aren't completely useless, their charge shooting mechanic is pretty nice but their damage is kinda crap.

Bastis really suffer in the coalesced matchup just because their saving grace is damage 2. Without it their damage really falls off a cliff.

Does your opponent run a starpriest with his knights? Nice thing abouut the basti is you can almost screen with them. Knights will just bounce right off a basti with mystic shield up (assuming no venom buff from the starpriest).

 

[Dread Saurian]

I usually just throw bigger dinosaurs at them