AoS Charging, positioning, and pile-in question

[Kilvakar]

So I was having a game with my brother who is admittedly much better at AoS and wargaming in general than I am, but also gets most of his rule knowledge from watching battle reports on Youtube. Today he told me that when charging your unit basically ignores all the rules of positioning in regards to being 3" away from enemy units. Is this true?

To be more specific, he was saying that a unit could charge an enemy unit that was placed about 4 inches in front of a unit behind it. He claimed that with his army's massive charge bonuses (he loves playing Orks) he could simple use the total distance that he charged to run into the front unit, then continue wrapping his models around it using the full charge distance rolled, ignoring that they would be moving within 3" of the unit behind the one he was charging.

He also claimed that if he wanted, he could declare a charge on the unit behind the closest one, and use the distance rolled to simply wrap the models around the first unit to get to the second.

He's the reason why I hate playing against Orks, lol! I've only beaten him once or twice, but every time I do badly it's because he's able to somehow get his units right into my important stuff, regardless of how I try to screen. And of course, Orks can shoot across the entire board to you're guaranteed to be in melee with then turn 1 no matter what.

My question is, I can't find clarification anywhere in the rulebooks on whether it's possible to do stuff like that or not. I was under the impression that you had to stop charging when you ran into a unit, and the only "wrapping" you could do would be in the pile-in. I'd very much like some clarification on this, as well as any other relevant rules on positioning, charging, etc. Because as much as I still have fun playing him, I do tend to also get frustrated that I always seem to lose due to apparently being ignorant of how the rules are supposed to work...

 

[LizardWizard]

Charging is not normal movement. It does not follow the 3" limit. He is able to charge as he described. However, the model he moves must end within 1/2" of an enemy model. In aos you also don't declair a target for charging. Only which unit will try to make a charge move.

 

[Imrahil]

He is right!

the model he moves must end within 1/2" of an enemy model

If I am correct: this rule only applies to the first model of the unit that is charging. Any subsequent models of that unit can charge the full distance as long as the unit maintains the 1" coherency rule.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Kilvakar]

Good to know!

Apparently any time I face Orks then I just need to spend more points on Skinks to line my entire army with screens, lol!

 

[Killer Angel]

Good to know!

Apparently any time I face Orks then I just need to spend more points on Skinks to line my entire army with screens, lol!

I also use knights; if you position them on the long side, you can cover a pretty large space even with a mere 5 knights-squad. And place terrains that can be garrisoned, so the charging orcs cannot bypass your units by moving through those (as per rules of said terrains)

 

[Aginor]

What also works well against Orruks is using terrain or endless spells to your advantage.
My buddy hates Soulsnare Shackles for example, as I use them as roadblocks to some effect.

 

[Grotpunter]

Once you start to understand the charge/move rules it actually opens up a lot of options/choices and much tactical play. Many newish people would just ram their unit straight into an enemy unit, instead of considering what you can do with a charge move. You just have to end within 0,5" of the enemy unit with a single model. Beyond the first model ending within 0,5" of the enemy unit, there is no reason to move the remaining models too close to the enemy unit (you can typically pile 3" and got a 1" attack range), since it will limit how far you can pile-in (you have to end closer - if you sit around 4" away it is almost impossible not to end closer) and reduce the surface area of your models.

Some people find it "gamey", but I personally find this aspect of AoS some of the most interesting.

Just an example of how you can use a charge move not to nessecarily fight the enemy.

 

[Putzfrau]

You can also charge a screen that's, lets say just outside of 3 inches in front of a second unit (maybe a hero) with two of your units. Active one of your units and wipe the screen. The enemy can then activate, but he doesnt have any units within 3 inches, so its back to you. You then activate the second unit, and pile in the full 3 (because you made a charge move) into the no longer protected enemy hero.

If you didn't kill that hero, he would be able to swing back but its a cool way to ensure your units get to punch before their units. Also not always relevant since it requires some pretty precise positioning to pull off, but cool when it does

Remembering that charging units always get their 3'' pile in is a cool trick that you can sometimes really use to your advantage.

 

[LizardWizard]

He is right!



If I am correct: this rule only applies to the first model of the unit that is charging. Any subsequent models of that unit can charge the full distance as long as the unit maintains the 1" coherency rule.

Grrr, Imrahil

You are correct. I was typing on my phone an left out the word first. lol

 

[Canas]

You can also charge a screen that's, lets say just outside of 3 inches in front of a second unit (maybe a hero) with two of your units. Active one of your units and wipe the screen. The enemy can then activate, but he doesnt have any units within 3 inches, so its back to you. You then activate the second unit, and pile in the full 3 (because you made a charge move) into the no longer protected enemy hero.

If you didn't kill that hero, he would be able to swing back but its a cool way to ensure your units get to punch before their units. Also not always relevant since it requires some pretty precise positioning to pull off, but cool when it does

Remembering that charging units always get their 3'' pile in is a cool trick that you can sometimes really use to your advantage.

wouldn't that hero get to pile in himself on the 2nd unit?

 

[Grotpunter]

wouldn't that hero get to pile in himself on the 2nd unit?

Only if he is in combat, so if you keep your stuff just outside of 3" he cant pile-in, but you can do it afterwards due to having charged.

 

[Putzfrau]

Only if he is in combat, so if you keep your stuff just outside of 3" he cant pile-in, but you can do it afterwards due to having charged.

Exactly this! You always get your 3'' pile in after charging, even if enemy models are no longer within 3''.

wouldn't that hero get to pile in himself on the 2nd unit?

The hero would get a pile in once he's pulled into combat (has an enemy unit within 3''). In the given example, your second unit is just outside of 3'' of him meaning the hero would not be able to pile in until you have piled into him (hopefully killing him before it can swing!)

@Kilvakar what list are you both playing? Might be able to help with some more specific advice if we know a little more about the army compositions.

 

[Canas]

Exactly this! You always get your 3'' pile in after charging, even if enemy models are no longer within 3''.

Ah right like that. It happens so rarely that I completly forgot.

 

[Kilvakar]

Thanks for all the replies! I haven't scoured all the FAQs or watched tons of battle reports, so I just tend to get surprised when people bring out new stuff that I didn't know was possible. Income wall of text so apologies.

what list are you both playing? Might be able to help with some more specific advice if we know a little more about the army compositions.

This is in general, as it's happened to me several times. I play Seraphon and Idoneth Deepkin, and he plays Orks, Khorne, and Skaven. The only army I cannot reliably play well against is Orks, because they can literally move across the entire board turn 1, and he *always* takes as many extra movement abilities as he can, through clans, battalions, etc. Most recent battle was Fangs of Sotek with Shadowstrike vs Bonesplitterz with some sort of battalion that makes them all move faster and large hordes of Boar Boyz, Arrow Boyz and Savage Orruks.

He's played Ironjawz, Bonesplitterz, and Big Waaagh, and I've only managed to actually win once, and we've called it a draw a couple of times. Most of the time I lose and lose badly, though, because of my key units getting wiped turn 1 as he always gets to go first and always gets most of his army into mine turn 1. He likes to bring Gordrakk and usually takes the trait that lets him block spells. Other than that, he basically likes to run "spam unit x" lists. Brute spam, Gore-Grunta spam, Boar Boyz spam, he loves to bring as much cavalry as he can and just run me over. I've had games vs. Ironjawz where his Maw-Krusha blasted right past my screens and actually charged *behind* my carnosaurs or Kroak to get space to land and Maw-Krushas (especially Gordrakk) basically insta-delete anything other than a Dread Saurian or a full 40-man unit of infantry. I had a game turn around because after doing really well against his Brutes he had a War-Chanta roll really well and take out almost an entire 20-man Saurus unit. I've used Salamanders to try and shoot down his heroes, but even they can't do much against Maw-Krushas. I've had

It's basically the same with Bonesplitterz. He'll take a max-sized unit or two of Arrow Boyz, a massive horde or Boar Boyz, and some Savage Orruks or Big Stabbas to mop up everything else. Often he'll ignore screens and just fire past into my good stuff with the archers (again, so much extra movement that they get within range turn 1) and he'll almost always charge pretty much everything he has into my army. This leaves his objectives open, but it often doesn't matter as he plays to table me, not to win the objective game. The problem with Orks is that they can play that way and still win, since everything in their books is designed to get them to the enemy as fast as possible and to do as much damage as possible when they get there, lol!

I know that horde-breaker spells like Stellar Tempest and Bound Purple Sun are good options to take when he does this kind of thing, but honestly I just don't have enough firepower after turn 1 left to make a comeback most of the time. It doesn't help that he's much more versed in AoS rules minutia than I am, and he's always bringing out some new tactic or maneuver that I didn't know was possible that wins him the game. He's not cheating, just power-gaming. But hey, we all want to win I've played Coalesced and Starborne, and only won once with Coalesced and that was because we were playing a 1k point game with a battleplan that had us deploying on the shorter ends of the table with more distance between us rather than the more common longways deployments. He still killed 10 Knights, a Scar-Vet on CO, and a Carnosaur with just his Maw-Krusha and five Brutes, but I also had a Stegadon and a Bastiladon and since he wasn't able to get them swamped turn 1 they were able to do enough shooting to win me the game. I know that Starborne are the more competitive choice most of the time, but being able to teleport and summon isn't enough to make up for getting usually a good 1/3 of your army wiped out before you can even do any damage back.

As for what lists I play, I've tried a lot. I tried the Starborne Salamander spam before they got nerfed, lost. I tried Coalesced Sunclaw to grind it out negating the extra damage of his War Chantas, did better but still lost when his heroes finished off my weakened units that were actually doing well against his Brutes and Ardboys. Maw-Krusha killed my Carnosaur and then Kroak, though, and I lost. I played Thunder Lizards vs Bonesplitterz, and we called it a draw after both of us losing most of our armies and it being about 2am, lol! Those are the ones I can remember right off the top of my head. There have been a couple of games where I've conceded turn 2 because I knew I couldn't do anything with all my units locked in combat and dying fast. I've absolutely kicked his butt with Seraphon vs Skaven and IDK vs both Skaven and Khorne, and he refuses to play Khorne or other Chaos factions vs my Seraphon So the problem is that he's just a really good Ork player and I'm just not used to playing Orks yet, lol!

You can also charge a screen that's, lets say just outside of 3 inches in front of a second unit (maybe a hero) with two of your units. Active one of your units and wipe the screen. The enemy can then activate, but he doesnt have any units within 3 inches, so its back to you. You then activate the second unit, and pile in the full 3 (because you made a charge move) into the no longer protected enemy hero.

If you didn't kill that hero, he would be able to swing back but its a cool way to ensure your units get to punch before their units. Also not always relevant since it requires some pretty precise positioning to pull off, but cool when it does

Remembering that charging units always get their 3'' pile in is a cool trick that you can sometimes really use to your advantage.

This is the kind of stuff he does to me all the time. Charge everything, wipe my screens with his weaker units, then keep going with his better units to get deeper into my lines and kill my important units, lol!

 

[Putzfrau]

Hmmmm. Sounds like you could be struggling with threat ranges? If you're consistently losing that much stuff turn 1 its a range or a screening issue. Most games are won and lost in deployment and the first movement phase so id probably start there on looking to improve stuff.

Also, your friend shouldn't be winning game after game with "gotcha" moments. You should talk to him, ask him to talk through stuff during the game so you can better learn. The great thing about playing with friends is you can slow things down and talk through strategy, deployment stuff like that. Sometimes just playing through deployment and the first turn a couple times can be more helpful in figuring an army out.

 

[Grotpunter]

Hmmmm. Sounds like you could be struggling with threat ranges? If you're consistently losing that much stuff turn 1 its a range or a screening issue. Most games are won and lost in deployment and the first movement phase so id probably start there on looking to improve stuff.

Also, your friend shouldn't be winning game after game with "gotcha" moments. You should talk to him, ask him to talk through stuff during the game so you can better learn. The great thing about playing with friends is you can slow things down and talk through strategy, deployment stuff like that. Sometimes just playing through deployment and the first turn a couple times can be more helpful in figuring an army out.

Certainly this!

If there was nothing to do against these kind of things, you would see people do it all the time in tournaments etc.

I have games with my mates where we talk tactics/strategy throughout the game and try to help each other improve. I have had games where my friend might give me turn 1 and before I start, I'll be like "you know I just won right? you just gave me a free Arkhan" (or whatever) due to poor deployment/screening. He gets to redeploy and we play a "proper" game. As much as we like to beat the shit out of each other with our toy soldiers, it is no fun for either of us if we win due to an obvious and big flaw.

 

[Kilvakar]

I'm definitely learning every time I play. I'm trying to get better at strategic deployment and screening. My biggest problem I'm having right now, and this is completely on me, is that I just haven't figured out how to properly screen everything when the threat range is literally the entire table.

And I don't I think he's trying to pull gotcha moments on me as much has he just knows the rules better than I do and plays accordingly. And again, he knows orks inside and out. Most of our games have been over TTS recently, but ironjawz are the Army he actually owns. I know what the seraphon can do, but I have yet to get enough practice and experience to know how to counter this Army specifically. I also admit that I have a tendency not to want to spend a ton of points on fodder that I know is going to die turn one, but maybe that's something I should learn to do more when I know I'm going to be facing the orks.

 

[Canas]

Try playing simpler games with very clear goals where he makes his list first and you can tailor something against it. Preferably with some extra explanations, e.g. "this model is super sturdy so don't bother focussing it, this other model is easier to kill and just as important so focus him" . It's what I sometimes do with my girlfriend when she gets overwhelmed because I keep bringing new units to the table. That tends to help with learning how to properly counter stuff.

 

[chefofwar]

I do not know anything the ork lists or tome either... and now rightfully afraid of it...

but do you have any options in your list building to get less drops and secure the "turn 1 choice"? Is the damage coming from him taking turn 1 or do you just mean turn 1 as a whole? or do orks just always get it through some sort of special rule?

 

[Grotpunter]

I do not know anything the ork lists or tome either... and now rightfully afraid of it...

but do you have any options in your list building to get less drops and secure the "turn 1 choice"? Is the damage coming from him taking turn 1 or do you just mean turn 1 as a whole? or do orks just always get it through some sort of special rule?

Ironjawz (and Big Waagh) have access to Mighty Destroyers, which is a Command Ability that lets them move a unit in the hero phase. The unit can then move again in the movement phase and also charge. So a Maw Krusha can easily move 12" in the hero phase + 12" in the movement phase plus the charge roll. Gore Gruntas can move 9"+9" etc. They have reasonable batallions that basically include all their units except the heroes, so they are very likely to be 4-5 drops.