Game of Thrones - $15 to build your ultimate squad!

[Just A Skink]

There are different types of leaders, with many different approaches to getting people to follow them. The ultimate role of a leader is to have those under him accurately and diligently execute the orders he/she gives them. Success in this regard can arise from combination of many factors including, but not limited to: pride, fear, logic, standing/position, leading by example, respect, inspiration, organization, etc. Stannis isn't a rosy type of leader, but many men do flock to his standard when they could have gone elsewhere. While he is definitely a no nonsense type of leader, I do not believe that his sole leadership trait is leading through fear. I think a large number of people genuinely respected him. He is a man of his principles (until steered aside by Melisandre, as was required by the story), a bit too rigid, but a man who sticks by his code.

Jon is obviously a much more positive figure (being one of the main heroes of the story), but is he more effective? You speak of loyalty, but he was literally killed by his own men. On top of that, he doesn't have the will or desire to lead. He knew that Daenerys wasn't fit to lead, but he stepped aside anyways (until the awful season 8 ending). To me he seems indecisive... not being able to make the obvious decision when other characters around him have long recognized it. It's one thing to have a character reluctantly take on the burden of leadership and grow into the role, but Jon never seems to do so.


I'd imagine that the Onion Knight would disagree with your assessment. Stannis plays the role of an antagonist and as such, he will always be painted in a darker light. You don't get to see as much interaction between him and his men, but you do see the respect that the Onion Knight has for him. He definitely has his loyalty and I think it can be inferred that he has the same effect on at least some percentage of his army.

As usual, you bring up fair points and good descriptions. Patton wasn't exactly a nice guy, but a good general. I think the show has skewed my view on some of these characters as compared to the books. It's been a while since I've read (or listened) to them, and I get the story mixed with the show's version often. All of the leaders listed make bad decisions, some to their ultimate demise.

Stannis IS portrayed as more of an antagonist, so arguably my opinion is a bit colored by that. But, his character seems to be written more as a leader concerned with justice and receiving the respect and honors that are due to him, if not always earning them. Davos is a loyal follow of Stannis, no doubt, and his continued support in the book is a strong case for Stannis (since Davos is written as a much more sympathetic character). I know leaders don't have to be rosy, and good leaders need to make hard choices. But, for whatever reason, Stannis just can't regularly inspire enough houses to his banner. "Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends."

I agree that Jon's biggest drawback is probably his indecisiveness; he's just kind of wishy-washy by the end of the show. It's a good burn about him "falling out" with some of the other Brothers of the Night's Watch. I don't think that was because he made bad leadership choices, or failed to inspire a big group of his followers (both Night's Watch and the Wild Folk by that stage). His fault was in underestimating the hostility of his Brothers. Still, people flock to him because he is also a man of his principles/honor.

I'm probably just too much of a sucker for the apparent "hero" of the story so far (I really enjoyed the "noble/honorable" Ned Stark). Aside from how Jon was played out in the show, I think he's a capable young leader. But, I'll retract my comment that Stannis is a weak choice.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think the show has skewed my view on some of these characters as compared to the books.

As I've only read the first book (and it was a long time ago) my opinions are completely based off of the show alone. The books will grant you further insight into the characters that I am unfortunately ignorant of.

Stannis, as an antagonist, had to fail in the end. Jon did not. So the fact that Jon, as the primary protagonist of the story, failed as a leader in the later seasons of the show (when it truly counted) really taints my confidence in him.


The one place where I really have to give Jon credit is that he is probably the best hearted main/major character in the entire show. Maybe the one character who is more good of heart than Ned. For the record, I'm not considering a character like Samwell Tarly, as I view him more as secondary or supporting character.

 

[xoid]

The Skywalker saga, as envisioned by George Lucas, is Episodes I-VI.

Actually as Return of the Jedi was coming out Lucas was taking about his plans for a nine movie saga.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Actually as Return of the Jedi was coming out Lucas was taking about his plans for a nine movie saga.

I know he had 9 episodes rattling around in his brain. But the Disney ST went in a completely different direction... one that Lucas absolutely hated!! Luckily the story ends perfectly at the end of VI.

 

[xoid]

I know he had 9 episodes rattling around in his brain. But the Disney ST went in a completely different direction... one that Lucas absolutely hated!! Luckily the story ends perfectly at the end of VI.

Oh I agree VI is a great end, and IV is a great start. Lucas proved with the prequels he also didn't really know what to do with the story on his own.

My Star Wars is three movies long.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Oh I agree VI is a great end, and IV is a great start. Lucas proved with the prequels he also didn't really know what to do with the story on his own.

My Star Wars is three movies long.

He just isn't a very good director. The stories for the prequels are pretty good, but the execution is lacking. Still, the lightsaber fights alone at least make them worthwhile. And ROTS (aside from the clunky/cringy Anakin-Padme dialogue) is pretty solid.

I do agree with you though... it's the OT all the way!

 

[Imrahil]

Let us know how it goes! (because misery loves company)

Wow... what a load of crappy character changes along the 3th, 4th and 5th episode...
I am almost through with episode 5, but clearly I am done with this season, figuratively.

mostly I think this is terrible writing and not the fault of the actors...

5th episode is by far the worst at the moment.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Imrahil]

Ok 6th episode is equally as bad as the 5th, what a way to spoil the serie.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Ok 6th episode is equally as bad as the 5th, what a way to spoil the serie.

Grrr, Imrahil

At last you have learned what it is to hate. Welcome to the club. Population: 99.9% of every GoT fan.

Its almost like they purposely decided to flush the entire thing down the toilet.

 

[Imrahil]

At last you have learned what it is to hate. Welcome to the club. Population: 99.9% of every GoT fan.

Its almost like they purposely decided to flush the entire thing down the toilet.

There was a little thing I did like

Spoiler

The scene in whitch Daenerys enters the throne room, makes a direct connection to the vision/ilusion in the Mage tower of Qarth.

Would they also know this crappy end way back then?

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Would they also know this crappy end way back then?

I think the crappy end is all due to execution and not actual story/plot. I think if given the proper amount of time and development, the big turn in season 8 could have worked out really well. Similarly, the battle against the white walkers could have been good if it wasn't resolved so quickly and we could actually see what was going on.

They really needed George R.R. Martin involved. When he was working behind the scenes the show was firing on all cylinders.

 

[Killer Angel]

Here's my squad, done without looking at the squads made by other forumeers, to avoid being influenced by you.

The leader: Jon Snow ($4) - he's loyal and knows how to win the hearts of men. He will obey me, so i can avoid him take foolish decisions (kinda the ones that took him to death). Snow took bad decisions when he was forced to act as commander… in this case I will be the commander.

Magic user: Jaqen ($3) a capable killer, and he will work nicely with my fighter…

Fighter: Arya Stark ($3) not only she's an exceptional killer, but can also infiltrate. Works great with jon and Jaqen.

Muscle: The Hound ($2). Yeah, i would love Khal Drogo, but the tie between him and Arya is strong, and got a sense of honor that fits with Jon's views, so i expect he would work perfectly within the group

Strategist: I've got 3$...
Robb Stark is 3, but he's amply overcosted.
Olenna is a very good schemer, i put her on a higher level than a mere 5th position.
The alternative to Olenna is Tyrion. Both Olenna and Tyrion are able to work with the group and smooth any potential contrast... however, Olenna is exceptional because she works exploiting the power of her house, while Tyrion has been able to do great things all by himself. If the member of the squad cannot count on their usual allies, then it's Tyrion all the way.

So: Jon Snow, Tyrion, Jaqen, Arya, the Hound

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Here's my squad, done without looking at the squads made by other forumeers, to avoid being influenced by you.

The leader: Jon Snow ($4) - he's loyal and knows how to win the hearts of men. He will obey me, so i can avoid him take foolish decisions (kinda the ones that took him to death). Snow took bad decisions when he was forced to act as commander… in this case I will be the commander.

Magic user: Jaqen ($3) a capable killer, and he will work nicely with my fighter…

Fighter: Arya Stark ($3) not only she's an exceptional killer, but can also infiltrate. Works great with jon and Jaqen.

Muscle: The Hound ($2). Yeah, i would love Khal Drogo, but the tie between him and Arya is strong, and got a sense of honor that fits with Jon views, so i expect he would work perfectly within the group

Strategist: I've got 3$...
Robb Stark is 3, but he's amply overcosted.
Olenna is a very good schemer, i put her on a higher level than a mere 5th position.
The alternative to Olenna is Tyrion. Both Olenna and Tyrion are able to work with the group and smooth any potential contrast... however, Olenna is exceptional because she works exploiting the power of her house, while Tyrion has been able to do great things all by himself. If the member of the squad cannot count on their usual allies, then it's Tyrion all the way.

So: Jon Snow, Tyrion, Jaqen, Arya, the Hound

A very good list. I'm surprised to see you take both Jaqen and Arya, as in my mind they carry with them virtually the exact same skill set. However, your justification is sound. I like your focus on the inter-group dynamics of your team.

 

[Killer Angel]

A very good list. I'm surprised to see you take both Jaqen and Arya, as in my mind they carry with them virtually the exact same skill set. However, your justification is sound. I like your focus on the inter-group dynamics of your team.

Yeah, jaqen and arya are very similar. However, a couple of sneaky assassins as these can basically do ANY secret mission it will be needed, and together should amply compensate the fact that my only front fighter is the Hound.
That said... yes, i focused mostly on the inner dynamics of the group. They are loyal to me, but i want them to be satisfied to work together.

 

[xoid]

I've only ever read the five books currently available, so this is based wholey in my impressions of the characters as they are in the books.

Leader: Stannis ($2). He's the only one I really rate at all, and even then he has issues, but Daenarys has too much of her family's inability to grasp things for how they are, and John Snow doesn't want to be a leader, which will always end badly.

Magic: Jaqen H'ghar ($3). I don't trust Bran or Melisandre at all, and Jaqen appears to have some kind of code he lives by.

Strategist: Tywin ($5). I feel he is the best long and short term planner, abs the main thing you have to protect him from is his over confidence towards his family.

Fighter: Bronn ($1). Possibly my favorite character in all the books, and he shows a real ability to adjust to the situation as needed.

Muscle: The Hound ($2). Another of my favorite characters, and I feel he could work very well with Bronn.

 

[Scalenex]

So the fact that Jon, as the primary protagonist of the story, failed as a leader in the later seasons of the show (when it truly counted) really taints my confidence in him.

+1

I would want Starks serving under me, but I would not want Stark's commanding me. Commanders need to understand human nature.

 

[Scalenex]

How much does Sir Davros Seaworth cost? I want him to sit on all planning sessions to notice and then state obvious things.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

How much does Sir Davros Seaworth cost? I want him to sit on all planning sessions to notice and then state obvious things.

I don't think we can afford the Onion Knight.