AoS Realms

[Xuil]

So we know the realm rules now and that there’s a roll-off and the winner picks!

What’re people’s thoughts on the winners and losers?
I feel like it’ll be hugely match-dependent. There are certain to be games where I’d rather gain nothing from the realm so that my opponent doesn’t either!

That said, I’m looking at Ulgu as a bit of a multiplier for our mobility, with a reasonable spell and nothing that I’m TOO frightened of my opponent getting?

 

[LizardWizard]

I feel like we are getting to the point where there are too many roll offs. Roll off for pre terrain deployment, roll off for Realm feature, roll off to choose deployment. That being said, I assume most events will still pick the Realm and Realmscape Features for each Battleplan when they build their packets.

 

[Putzfrau]

I feel like we are getting to the point where there are too many roll offs. Roll off for pre terrain deployment, roll off for Realm feature, roll off to choose deployment. That being said, I assume most events will still pick the Realm and Realmscape Features for each Battleplan when they build their packets.

Agreed completely.

 

[Grotpunter]

I feel like we are getting to the point where there are too many roll offs. Roll off for pre terrain deployment, roll off for Realm feature, roll off to choose deployment. That being said, I assume most events will still pick the Realm and Realmscape Features for each Battleplan when they build their packets.

I wouldnt be surprised if this is yet another thing where the community just says "no thanks" after a couple of test games.

We literally never played with realms outside of tournaments, and lately tournaments around here have been excluding the realms either way, so I understand the want to streamline the realms so its easier to implement into "ordinary play" (i.e matched play outside of tournaments). I do feel like they lost a lot of what made them somewhat interesting though and they have become a little bit too bland for my taste. There was a huge "ability" bloat imo with so many spells etc. in each realm, but I feel like they really cut them short with just 1 terrain effect, 1 CA, 1 spell and 1 artefact per realm.

I look at the different realms and I feel like Im gonna pick whatever realm has the least impact on my opponent since non of the realms really give any benefit to me in Starborne. I dont really care about mystical terrain or giving saves to Skink screens. On the flipside I'd rather not have my opponent gain these things.

I feel like the biggest impact is still gonna be the empowered endless spells, especially Umbral Spellportal, Soulscream Bridge etc.

That said, I’m looking at Ulgu as a bit of a multiplier for our mobility, with a reasonable spell and nothing that I’m TOO frightened of my opponent getting?

Keep in mind your opponent will also gain this ability, so question is if it isnt a greater benefit for you to pick something else that is basically garbage for you both to ensure your opponent got no movement shenanigans.

 

[Nart]

How do you know all the realm rules already?

 

[LizardWizard]

How do you know all the realm rules already?

Leaking leakers leak things

 

[Canas]

Imho the only truly interesting part of the realms was their spell lores. Which could be used to flesh out factions who had a mediocre spell lore if you just allowed people to make say an Ulgu & a Hysh wizard. Which unfortunatly was never how you were supposed to use it, but details .

The realm features & command abilities just seemed like pointless bloat that were forgotten half the time anyway.

The artifacts, although usefull mostly just resulted in people always picking the same few realms cuz it had a powerfull artifact that was just flat out better than everything else.

I hope the lores get re-introduced at some point as something thats (semi)-freely availble. It'd be a nice way of guaranteeing the wizards of every faction have some utility, some damage, some defenses etc. instead of being stuck with a spell lore which solely has say damage spells and no defensive options whatsoever. Arcane bolt & mystic shield are of course already supposed to ensure every wizard has an offensive and defensive option, but they are extremely limited in their power & utility. Plus with the rule of 1 this can still mean you have 1 defensive spell but 5 spellcasts...

In general the magic system could use some love.

 

[LizardWizard]

The realm features & command abilities just seemed like pointless bloat that were forgotten half the time anyway.

I rather enjoyed the old Realmscape Features and Realm Lores. like 20% of the games I played were at events though (which almost always required them unless both players didn't care to use them). And most of my other games were either testing out my own list or helping club mates test and prepare for the same events. That pretty much left narrative games in which we frequently made our own realmscapes or tweak the current one.

I don't doubt that a lot of people rarely made use of them though. There have been multiple events where I taught my opponent some or multiple features of the realm rules.

In general the magic system could use some love.

Totally agree. Something between our current system and ye ol'Winds of Magic would be awesome. I do love Endless Spells though. And I like casting staying at 2d6 per attempt (minus special rules) instead of having a single dice pool and wizard lvls.

 

[Xuil]

I get the sentiment, but a winds of magic type system could really screw over a Kroak list. I don’t miss sometimes being unable to attempt all of your casts...

I’d like an overhaul, I just can’t think what that might look like.
Idoneth prayers have the ‘collective casting’ mechanic in their rituals. I’m still surprised there has never been that sort of rule for Slann, given how coordinated their efforts often were in the lore. “This spell requires one cast attempt each from two Slann” would’ve been a neat way to give our lore something strong without breaking the game.

Bit of a digression though.
As for realms... it’s interesting you feel tournaments will fix them. My impression is that they’re not broken enough nor complicated enough that the roll can’t be done at the table? I guess it all eats into time and balance though.

 

[Grotpunter]

I dont really see whats wrong with magic the way it currently is? The only thing I dont like is how Kroak can be +3 to unbind AND be boardwide. I get that Slanns are these cool magical frogmen, but it creates a frustrating situation where your opponent doesnt feel like he can outplay you at all. Auto unbinds or auto casts are also extremely annoying to play against.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I dont really see whats wrong with magic the way it currently is? The only thing I dont like is how Kroak can be +3 to unbind AND be boardwide. I get that Slanns are these cool magical frogmen, but it creates a frustrating situation where your opponent doesnt feel like he can outplay you at all. Auto unbinds or auto casts are also extremely annoying to play against.

i get that it might be frustrating but the other magic factions do fine against it. it's only dabblers that have trouble. and Slann are not just cool magical frogmen they are the grand magicians and the fathers of all magic they showed the elves how to call the wind and all magic comes from their teaching. they where made buy the creators of the world to live and breath and have complete mastery over the winds of magic, their feats put all mortal magus and even the gods to shame if anything they are not strong enough with magic. but this is a game and things should be manageable so i think they are fine where they are.

 

[Canas]

I dont really see whats wrong with magic the way it currently is?

The system simply isn't very fleshed out.

There's little to distinguish it from prayers, command abilities and general abilities. There's little variation in the available spells with the majority being "Do D3 damage with some small side effect", though that's slowly improving. There's several issues created by the rule of one (rewards playing deathstars/punishes playing multiple units, punishes bringing 2 of the same wizard even as a back-up, flat out invalidates certain tactics/playstyles, creates a lot of bloat to ensure everyone has their "Do D3 damage"-spell, it activly works against certain mechancis like a Magister's magic-touched). The lores are hit and miss with half of the available spells often being rather terrible (though this also seems to be the case for artifacts & command traits). And with only mystic shield & arcane bolt available as general spells the base-line powerlevel is very limited, which further accentuates the mediocre spell-lores and low variance. Certain wizards essentially don't have acces to say a decent defensive spell.

There's also relativly little interaction, with other magic as well as with seperate mechanics. And there's no way for weaker wizards to compete with the stronger ones. If you're facing a wizard that has a +3 and you can't do get any modifiers you might as well roll over and give up fighting his magic.

There's also relativly little distinguishing good from bad wizards. Without wizard-levels there simply aren't as many levers to pull to make a wizard stand out.

O, and especially for the weaker wizard units, like a starpriest, it kinda sucks that all their prowess is limited to 1 spellcast and 1 seperate ability buff. Though I'm very glad he's got a ranged attack now. Makes him a bit more active. Though this isn't so much an issue with magic as it is with wizards being fairly bad units cuz it's just a dude with a staff. Obviously something like a ghoul king on terrorgheist, Nagash, or a Lord of change doesn't suffer from this issue

 

[Killer Angel]

The only thing I dont like is how Kroak can be +3 to unbind AND be boardwide. I get that Slanns are these cool magical frogmen, but it creates a frustrating situation where your opponent doesnt feel like he can outplay you at all.

At least, it lets us play against armies that are heavily unbalanced toward magical attacks.

 

[Grotpunter]

i get that it might be frustrating but the other magic factions do fine against it. it's only dabblers that have trouble. and Slann are not just cool magical frogmen they are the grand magicians and the fathers of all magic they showed the elves how to call the wind and all magic comes from their teaching. they where made buy the creators of the world to live and breath and have complete mastery over the winds of magic, their feats put all mortal magus and even the gods to shame if anything they are not strong enough with magic. but this is a game and things should be manageable so i think they are fine where they are.

Yeah I get that they were created by the Old Ones and all that - I just boiled it down to "cool magical frogmen". I still dont think that means they should be as oppressive on the table as they are in regards to anti-magic. I think Kroak should either be able to get +3 to unbind within 30" OR +0 boardwide. Having both is just insane and it really kills lists that have a single Wizard to cast a much needed teleport spell or some other buff.

On the flip side it looks like we might not see THAT much magic going forward. Nagash is losing a lot by the special rule of only having 1 Ward save, I wonder if people will still bring him as he's much more vulnerable now to getting charged. I have killed him from full to zero with 6 Gore Gruntas in Big Waagh personally (that was Legions of Nagash though, not Petrigash) but it was with a significant overkill that I think a 5+ Ward save still wouldnt be enough.

I've been following quite a few reviews of Lumineth and it seems like a lot of people are considering Teclis to be a trap and will go a non-Teclis route primarily. There are really not that many magic-bullies left beyond Lord of Change.

There's little to distinguish it from prayers, command abilities and general abilities. There's little variation in the available spells with the majority being "Do D3 damage with some small side effect", though that's slowly improving. There's several issues created by the rule of one (rewards playing deathstars/punishes playing multiple units, punishes bringing 2 of the same wizard even as a back-up

Im not sure what you are expecting from magic? It is a 2d6 cast that an enemy Wizard can interfere with (if positioned within 30") unlike prayers, command abilities etc. that typically cant fail or generally have really low odds of failing (prayers - some factions got available rerolls for them too). Sure it is an "ability" that goes off based on a dice roll that typically deals damage, but by the same token there is little to distinguish between ranged shooting and melee combat.

I dont think the rule of one is bad - It is there to prevent people from abusing one spell and spamming it over and over. Imagine being able to cast Stellar Tempest multiple times? Bye hordes! You can still bring 2 Starpriests and gain value due to spell lores. That is actually why I dont value the Starseer that much - He is a 1 cast Wizard (Why not 2 cast? surely he is better than a Starpriest, effectively a baby Slann) that typically wants to cast something else than his own warscroll spell. There are at least 2 Skink spells from the spell lore that are very good.

flat out invalidates certain tactics/playstyles

Do you mean it "counters" certain tactics/playstyles? Because it is really no different than stuff like Fyreslayers that pretty much counter every single melee army unless they have 200 models or can constantly return them like Legion of Grief.

There's also relativly little interaction, with other magic as well as with seperate mechanics. And there's no way for weaker wizards to compete with the stronger ones. If you're facing a wizard that has a +3 and you can't do get any modifiers you might as well roll over and give up fighting his magic.

Some random fool of a Wizard should have trouble unbinding Nagash or Kroak. Having +3 to cast is certainly strong and very good, but it doesnt automatically mean you get every spell through. The cast results range from 5 to 15, there are plently of results where a Wizard with no modifiers can unbind said spell regardless of +3. Trust me, as someone that plays with a +4 Kroak I have seen many 1s.

 

[Putzfrau]

Having both is just insane and it really kills lists that have a single Wizard to cast a much needed teleport spell or some other buff.

A lot of cool conversation here, but i'm just going to touch on this point specifically. This is 100% totally true at a high level, and one of the reasons that an army like Skaven is struggling right now. They rely heavily on More, More Warp Power, and armies that have access to a Teclis, Kroak, or the like, can drastically reduce their effectiveness.

However, I think it's the army that relies on one spell cast that's the real problem. Armies should have more flexibility built into their book, and i'd hate to see powerful casters get tuned down because GW doesn't know how to give a codex more options.

 

[Grotpunter]

A lot of cool conversation here, but i'm just going to touch on this point specifically. This is 100% totally true at a high level, and one of the reasons that an army like Skaven is struggling right now. They rely heavily on More, More Warp Power, and armies that have access to a Teclis, Kroak, or the like, can effectivel

However, I think it's the army that relies on one spell cast that's the real problem. Armies should have more flexibility built into their book, and i'd hate to see powerful casters get tuned down because GW doesn't know how to give a codex more options.

I mean it doesnt even have to be at a high level. People at my club are expressing that it is incredible frustrating to play against a +3 boardwide unbind Kroak since there is literally nothing they can do about it = Zero counterplay.

I mean there are armies like Big Waagh or Ironjawz that are 99% melee focused and just have a single support Wizard. I dont think that is "bad" by any means. I really dont like rules that ensure there is no counterplay to be done - If a Big Waagh army really wants that teleport to go off, they should be able to deploy their Wizard way back, which also means they sacrifice their unbind in the opponent's hero phase. Thats a choice someone takes.

At the end of the day I just want fair and fun games. Being dumped on or being oppressive towards other armies is just not fun for me.

 

[Putzfrau]

I mean it doesnt even have to be at a high level. People at my club are expressing that it is incredible frustrating to play against a +3 boardwide unbind Kroak since there is literally nothing they can do about it = Zero counterplay.

I mean there are armies like Big Waagh or Ironjawz that are 99% melee focused and just have a single support Wizard. I dont think that is "bad" by any means. I really dont like rules that ensure there is no counterplay to be done - If a Big Waagh army really wants that teleport to go off, they should be able to deploy their Wizard way back, which also means they sacrifice their unbind in the opponent's hero phase. Thats a choice someone takes.

At the end of the day I just want fair and fun games. Being dumped on or being oppressive towards other armies is just not fun for me.

Great point. Maybe the Slann spell should be changed from +1 to everything to just +1 to cast.

 

[ILKAIN]

I think you guys are ignoring the fact that armies that rely on magic have their own ways to get +1 to +3 casting, to mitigate the bonuses to some degree that kroak/slann have. and if your army relies on a single wizard casting a single spell to win... your army is broke and none of those exist. yes some factions have far less magic... but they make up for it with stronger stated martial units. or zero interaction endless spells (khorne/Fyreslayers)

yeah its strong. but its only "oppressive" when viewed in a vacuum, void of what other armies have built in to them.

 

[Putzfrau]

I think you guys are ignoring the fact that armies that rely on magic have their own ways to get +1 to +3 casting, to mitigate the bonuses to some degree that kroak/slann have. and if your army relies on a single wizard casting a single spell to win... your army is broke and none of those exist. yes some factions have far less magic... but they make up for it with stronger stated martial units. or zero interaction endless spells (khorne/Fyreslayers)

yeah its strong. but its only "oppressive" when viewed in a vacuum, void of what other armies have built in to them.

I largely agree, but don't necessarily agree with none of those armies existing. Skaven pretty much need More, More Warp Power to create any kind of consistency. Certain StD builds rely super heavily on their teleport spell, and FEC also relies pretty heavily on certain spells to get their heavy hitters to an appropriate power level.

It's not as drastic as "if you dont get this spell off you lose" but playing the entire game without them hurts those builds to an excessive degree.

It's a weird balance, and i'm not sure where the best place to land is. I like powerful casters existing, but when spellcasting becomes all but guaranteed it does start to create some wonky issues.

/shrug i'm sure someone smarter than me can figure something out, but for the moment AoS is definitely a magic heavy meta with LRL, Seraphon, Tzeentch and Hallowheart all being strong, competitive armies. If you can't deal with them somehow it really limits your books ability to compete at the highest level... but that's only a problem for a tiny, tiny fraction of games.

 

[ILKAIN]

I largely agree, but don't necessarily agree with none of those armies existing. Skaven pretty much need More, More Warp Power to create any kind of consistency. Certain StD builds rely super heavily on their teleport spell, and FEC also relies pretty heavily on certain spells to get their heavy hitters to an appropriate power level.

It's not as drastic as "if you dont get this spell off you lose" but playing the entire game without them hurts those builds to an excessive degree.

It's a weird balance, and i'm not sure where the best place to land is. I like powerful casters existing, but when spellcasting becomes all but guaranteed it does start to create some wonky issues.

/shrug i'm sure someone smarter than me can figure something out, but for the moment AoS is definitely a magic heavy meta with LRL, Seraphon, Tzeentch and Hallowheart all being strong, competitive armies. If you can't deal with them somehow it really limits your books ability to compete at the highest level... but that's only a problem for a tiny, tiny fraction of games.

key phrase you repeat over and over "certain builds"... those armies have other builds that are competitive. and some armies have ZERO way to interact with magic, like fyreslayers (minus one absolutely worthless trait that you don't take cuz the others are better and a single dispel isn't worth) which actually only accentuates the point... armies without/low on magic have other ways to be competitive, which makes a +3 unbind wasted points..... its like have a creatureless control deck against a deck that has creature removal in Magic. *shrug*

personally all they need to do is just launch some face smashers through the screen into the casters and beat them to a bloody pulp ala Khorne lol. really only Kroak or Nagash is gonna have a decent chance at surviving that... less so with the new FNP rules.