AoS Kroxigors and skinks

[xoid]

I have a question about battle synergy. It says when fully within 6" oh any skink units. It is the use of any instead of a that confuses me, would you get a bonus in a setup like this:

s s s s kk kk kk kk kk kk s s s s 
 s s s skk kk kk kk kk kks s s s

where it is more then 6 inches from either skink unit to the far kroxigor, but all kroxigors are within 6 inches of one of the skink units?

 

[ILKAIN]

I have a question about battle synergy. It says when fully within 6" oh any skink units. It is the use of any instead of a that confuses me, would you get a bonus in a setup like this:

s s s s kk kk kk kk kk kk s s s s
s s s skk kk kk kk kk kks s s s

where it is more then 6 inches from either skink unit to the far kroxigor, but all kroxigors are within 6 inches of one of the skink units?

each skink unit is its own entity. so you would check for "wholly" within for each unit separately. if the entire unit of Krox is not within wholly within 6" of any single skink unit, then it would not trigger the synergy

 

[xoid]

That's what I figured, the wording just made me a little unsure, thanks!

 

[Canas]

each skink unit is its own entity. so you would check for "wholly" within for each unit separately. if the entire unit of Krox is not within wholly within 6" of any single skink unit, then it would not trigger the synergy

it feels kinda stupid though when you look at situations like this. Intuitivly it should trigger, after all the entire unit of kroxigor is surrounded by skinks, yet it doesn't.

 

[ILKAIN]

that's why I don't like the use of the "wholly within" mechanic at all. like guy 1 is close enough to the hero to be inspired but because his buddy an arms length away isn't that inspiration is gone... logic whaaaaaat???? lol

 

[Canas]

that's why I don't like the use of the "wholly within" mechanic at all. like guy 1 is close enough to the hero to be inspired but because his buddy an arms length away isn't that inspiration is gone... logic whaaaaaat???? lol

Meh, I guess we need something to stop people from doing stupid stuff like conga-lining.

The obvious solution to congalining would of course be that you buff individual models instead of units, or enforce some sort of unit cohesion beyond the 'stay within 1" '-rule (which imho, would probably be a good thing in multiple ways). But this is an easier blanket fix, so of course GW goes for this

 

[Grotpunter]

Meh, I guess we need something to stop people from doing stupid stuff like conga-lining.

The obvious solution to congalining would of course be that you buff individual models instead of units, or enforce some sort of unit cohesion beyond the 'stay within 1" '-rule (which imho, would probably be a good thing in multiple ways). But this is an easier blanket fix, so of course GW goes for this

Dont think it has anything to do with making lazy or easy fixes to the rules but more to do with making the gameplay smooth. Having to measure invidual models for buffs is one thing, but how are you gonna mark what models were buffed in the hero phase once you have done movement, charges and pile-ins? Sounds like a pointless change that is time consuming for players and cause a bad play experience.

 

[Canas]

Dont think it has anything to do with making lazy or easy fixes to the rules but more to do with making the gameplay smooth. Having to measure invidual models for buffs is one thing, but how are you gonna mark what models were buffed in the hero phase once you have done movement, charges and pile-ins? Sounds like a pointless change that is time consuming for players and cause a bad play experience.

Of course it has a good ease of play, it's an easy blanket fix, those pretty much by definition are easy to use.I didn't necesarly mean they were being lazy in terms of coming up with new things, I meant they simply went for the easiest to implement rule that requires no real changes as to how the game is played without looking at the potential effects of a more complicated change and cascading effects this might have. Which isn't inherently bad, often it's even good, it's just very typical of changes GW does

Doesn't mean they couldn't have come up with a better fix to disencourage congalining, one that preferably also diminishes the value of other reasons to congaline.

As for keeping track of buffed units being difficult as they move; make it so buffs are cast during the relevant phases then you don't need to deal with that. Aside from magic abilities that are cast early seem to be relativly rare to begin with anyway.

And of course you could do something with my other suggestion of just making unit cohestion stricter, which could also be benificial in other ways. But requires vastly more testing to see if works or not. Not to mention it'd significantly change how you'd play and would require players to actually get used to a real mechanical change and thus risks pissing off players.

And lastly, I'm sure there's other alternatives as well

 

[Canas]

Also, as an obvious improvement to their simple blanket fix, they could've at least increased the range of buffs to help out edge cases instead of just going straight to "wholly within" but keeping the same range. Their current relativly lazy fix is obviously a fine solution when you look at a situation where some was trying to extend the effective range of a buff by 10" by conga-lining a horde-unit that has plenty of bodies in it's backrow that won't ever manage to get in combat anyway. However, it rather sucks in situations where someone was simply trying to buff a MSU where 1 model is not wholly within. They could've at least increased the general range of buffs from 18" to say 20" to give those more genuine usecases some wiggleroom. This is especially noticeable when you'd be trying to buff a bigger models like knights, who's bases can easily be 2-3" and thus quite easily go over that 18" border even without actually conga-lining. That's not to mention even bigger models of course. On that note, now that I think about, what does this mean for say a carnosaur with his 5" base? Does he need to stay within 13" of the caster to be wholly within? cuz that doesn't seem right.

Edit: yup, just checked the errata, a carnosaur is kind of screwed when he wants to be buffed. The entire model needs to be wholly within which means large models like him need to stay very close to whomever is buffing them.

But they didn't. Cuz that'd be more complicated than a blanket change requiring them to decide what edge case is a genuine use-case and what edge-case is someone trying to take advantage of conga-lining nonsense.

 

[Grotpunter]

In the start of AoS most buffs were within based, but alot of updated tomes changed those rules to be wholly within but also had increased range to compensate.

I really like the skirmish aspect of AoS and the whole movement game is super underrated by alot of players. The fact you can effectively slingshot units in a completely different direction when doing a charge is interesting to me.

Alot of these seemingly “easy fixes” is just gonna mess alot with how the current game is played. I think we have all been annoyed when it turns out your unit is 1” out of a wholly within range and this cant be buffed, but that is honestly just bad play on our part. We can measure distance at any given time.

 

[ILKAIN]

simple fix, more models in range than not.

 

[xoid]

Or even 2/3rds to limit conga lining a bit.

 

[Grotpunter]

But what is the point of these abstract suggestions? Is it just to avoid being caught red handed due to bad movement play? It is entirely within your control to measure and position things correctly.

A unit being wholly within or not is rather simple and easy.

 

[Canas]

simple fix, more models in range than not.

Or even 2/3rds to limit conga lining a bit.

This would've already been so much better, and is at least as easy and simple to implement. Plus it translates reasonably well to larger models as well, just keep at least X% of the base in range.

In the start of AoS most buffs were within based, but alot of updated tomes changed those rules to be wholly within but also had increased range to compensate.

What buff has had it range increased? Pretty much everything is still the same, mostly 18" with a some 12" and a few 6", as far as I know.

But what is the point of these abstract suggestions? Is it just to avoid being caught red handed due to bad movement play? It is entirely within your control to measure and position things correctly.

The point is that we've gone from a rule that disproportionatly rewarded stupid things like congalines to a rule to disproportionaly punishes "bad" positioning because nothing compensated for the shorter effective range of buffs with the "wholly within" phrasing, which is especially noticeable with larger models who's bases eat up upwards of 5" of the range of your buff. So we've only really traded one problem for another.

The only reason this rulechange is considered an improvement is because now it feels more like it is under your control how much you get screwed over by it. As now it's you positioning "badly" instead of your opponent positioning "well" to abuse a conga-line.

And of course it only does something about conga-lines when it concerns buffs. If you're conga-lining for a different reason it's still just as effective (and just as silly..)

 

[Grotpunter]

This would've already been so much better, and is at least as easy and simple to implement. Plus it translates reasonably well to larger models as well, just keep at least X% of the base in range.


What buff has had it range increased? Pretty much everything is still the same, mostly 18" with a some 12" and a few 6", as far as I know.



The point is that we've gone from a rule that disproportionatly rewarded stupid things like congalines to a rule to disproportionaly punishes "bad" positioning because nothing compensated for the shorter effective range of buffs with the "wholly within" phrasing, which is especially noticeable with larger models who's bases eat up upwards of 5" of the range of your buff. So we've only really traded one problem for another.

The only reason this rulechange is considered an improvement is because now it feels more like it is under your control how much you get screwed over by it. As now it's you positioning "badly" instead of your opponent positioning "well" to abuse a conga-line.

And of course it only does something about conga-lines when it concerns buffs. If you're conga-lining for a different reason it's still just as effective (and just as silly..)

Exalted Greater Daemon of Khorne went from within 8” to wholly within 18”. Gordrakk went from within 20” to wholly within 24” etc. There are plently of cases where the range was increased to compensate for the whole base needing to fit inside.

So you want to sit and figure out what 75% of a 65mm base is in inches, and then measure if it is within range of said ability? Again, sounds really time consuming. At the end of the day, you have full control over where you put your models. If you carelessly max move everything in different directions, then realize you are no longer wholly within a couple of phases later on, it is really just on you for not measuring up.

I really like the idea of either the unit is within range, or it isnt. Super simple to understand and execute on the table. I dont understand the want for reducing the impact of bad play and making the game more time consuming.

 

[ILKAIN]

But what is the point of these abstract suggestions? Is it just to avoid being caught red handed due to bad movement play? It is entirely within your control to measure and position things correctly.

A unit being wholly within or not is rather simple and easy.

not abstract, the 51% rule already exists and has been used in multiple games (40k, necro, etc)

 

[ILKAIN]

Additionally, as Canas pointed out, it creates a simple rule that fixes single model units awkwardness. why should a carno not get a buff just because his tail is 1" to far? the brain of the carno and rider are in the aura. this makes more logical sense in every single scenario. there is literally no way for anyone to say it doesn't.

 

[Canas]

Exalted Greater Daemon of Khorne went from within 8” to wholly within 18”. Gordrakk went from within 20” to wholly within 24” etc. There are plently of cases where the range was increased to compensate for the whole base needing to fit inside.

Still seems like the vast majority hasn't changed, the only one in our tome that seems to have changed is the starpriest's venom and the majority of abilities I see passing by anywhere still tend to be 18".

So you want to sit and figure out what 75% of a 65mm base is in inches, and then measure if it is within range of said ability?Again, sounds really time consuming.

You already bring a measuring stick to this game anyway. Figuring out how much of the base is covered really shouldn't be a complicated thing. Seriously what about this would be in any way complicated by the standards of a wargame?

At the end of the day, you have full control over where you put your models. If you carelessly max move everything in different directions, then realize you are no longer wholly within a couple of phases later on, it is really just on you for not measuring up.

I really like the idea of either the unit is within range, or it isnt. Super simple to understand and execute on the table. I dont understand the want for reducing the impact of bad play and making the game more time consuming.

But the current rule doesn't punish bad play, it punishes having a large model.

The impact of bad positional play will be just as big with any of the alternatives we suggested, but your carnosaur will no longer need to almost hug your starpriest simply to be wholly within range for his venom, the carnosaur can actually stay at a decent range if you wouldn't need to put the whole 5" base in that 12" bubble....

 

[Grotpunter]

Still seems like the vast majority hasn't changed, the only one in our tome that seems to have changed is the starpriest's venom and the majority of abilities I see passing by anywhere still tend to be 18".

Skink Starpriest went from within 8” to wholly within 12”. Slann fly CA went from within 10” to wholly within 18”. This “feeling” of yours just doesnt match what Im seeing in the updated tomes at all. Im sure there are outliners but the vast majority of updates have compensated with extra range due to auras of within being changed to wholly within.

You already bring a measuring stick to this game anyway. Figuring out how much of the base is covered really shouldn't be a complicated thing. Seriously what about this would be in any way complicated by the standards of a wargame?

It is not the same at all. Bases are made in mm and everything else is in inches. If you had some abstract rule of 75% of the base must be within, then you need to figure out how much 75% of a 65mm base is in inches. Since bases are in rounded mm, converting that into inches isnt exactly something you just do off the top of your head.

This is way different than measuring from a caster and go “hmm is this base wholly within 18”? Seems like it, ok go”. Everything is in whole inches, there is no confusion to be had.

But the current rule doesn't punish bad play, it punishes having a large model.

The impact of bad positional play will be just as big with any of the alternatives we suggested, but your carnosaur will no longer need to almost hug your starpriest simply to be wholly within range for his venom, the carnosaur can actually stay at a decent range if you wouldn't need to put the whole 5" base in that 12" bubble....

Of course it punishes bad play. If you move carelessly with your models you get punished.

I dont get your point with the Carnosaur. If you measure 10” up the board and put the Carnosaurs front at this mark, then a Skink next to it at the 10” mark too. If both models then move 10” further away in the same direction, the bigger sized base has no impact. You still need to measure to the front of both models, so it is irrelevant if the Skink has 10x the smaller base. Both of them has 10” range to the original spot.


Anyways, this feels like a super irrelevant discussion. I dont agree and much prefer the current rules that imo makes the game faster and smoother to play. Its fine if you dont like it, I just think “quick obvious fixes” have a much bigger impact than you realise.

 

[Canas]

Skink Starpriest went from within 8” to wholly within 12”. Slann fly CA went from within 10” to wholly within 18”. This “feeling” of yours just doesnt match what Im seeing in the updated tomes at all. Im sure there are outliners but the vast majority of updates have compensated with extra range due to auras of within being changed to wholly within.

There seem to be more than I thought, but there's still a suspiciously lack of auras bigger than 18" though, would've expected the default to then go to say 20" instead.

It is not the same at all. Bases are made in mm and everything else is in inches. If you had some abstract rule of 75% of the base must be within, then you need to figure out how much 75% of a 65mm base is in inches. Since bases are in rounded mm, converting that into inches isnt exactly something you just do off the top of your head.

This is way different than measuring from a caster and go “hmm is this base wholly within 18”? Seems like it, ok go”. Everything is in whole inches, there is no confusion to be had.

Are you seriously saying it's difficult to figure out how much of a circle (or oval, or whatever other shape for that matter) is within a different circle when you have a measuring stick?

I dont get your point with the Carnosaur.

A carnosaur is on a base which is roughly 5" long.
To put this base wholly within an 18" inch bubble the nearest part of the carnosaur needs to be at most 13" from the center of said bubble.
A model that's on a base that's roughly 1" long would need to be at most 17" from the center of said bubble.

Hence this rule disproportionally affects larger models by artifically lowering the effective range of "wholly within" abilities.