AoS Stegadon with Chief ( after FAQ )

[Koen Detiege]

All,

If my theorycrafts are correct, this guy can get real alphastrike

First question.
Stegadon rules state that the crew must be treated in the same manner as the mount and FAQ states that Chief is treated as the rider. so is it safe to assume that :

Chief attacks in Melee with Warspear
Mount attacks in shooting with bow/sunfire throwers and javs and does melee with horns, jaws and stomps

?

If that's correct, taking this chief as general for Thunder Lizards let's him take the Prime Warbeast artifact, stating: +1 attacks to all mount weapons.

Which for as far as I can see it, are both missile and melee weapons.

This would mean an extra Bow shot. ( if taken skystreak bow ) ... nice...

But this would also mean shooting the sunfire throwers not once but twice...

Start of the game, i place my steggy on the border of my deployment zone as close to an enemy horde unit ( idealy 18'' ), use the skink priest staff to run&shoot/charge, with hunters steed active, I move 9 inches, run another 6 ( spending 1CP if needed ) . Being 3'' away from that unit, I asume I could target most of them with the 8'' reach of my sunfire. ( for example, a unit of 40 clanrats, that's 80 shots , which on average will cause 26 MW's ) After that you can charge the leftovers and anyone sitll alive will most likely flee...

Thoughts ?

 

[Killer Angel]

(snip)
If that's correct, taking this chief as general for Thunder Lizards let's him take the Prime Warbeast artifact, stating: +1 attacks to all mount weapons.
(snip)

It's the General Trait, not an artefact (an arfefact wouldn't work, the trait does).
But yes, you are correct, this is a build it was already discussed, and with the new FAQ it's clearly possible, so yeah I believe we are going to see a lot of TL Stegadon chief with sunfire thrower.

 

[ILKAIN]

It's the General Trait, not an artefact (an arfefact wouldn't work, the trait does).
But yes, you are correct, this is a build it was already discussed, and with the new FAQ it's clearly possible, so yeah I believe we are going to see a lot of TL Stegadon chief with sunfire thrower.

Glad to see others are seeing what I saw, gonna gloat for 3 seconds total.

enjoy the horde roasting!

 

[LizardWizard]

The main issue with the flame throws is to get much effect from them you want to be in combat range. Which means in most scenarios you are either hoping for a double turn or you have to survive two rounds of combat with a horde while only having 12 wounds a 4+ save. If a horde can't kill that then you probably don't need to kill the horde.

 

[ILKAIN]

The main issue with the flame throws is to get much effect from them you want to be in combat range. Which means in most scenarios you are either hoping for a double turn or you have to survive two rounds of combat with a horde while only having 12 wounds a 4+ save. If a horde can't kill that then you probably don't need to kill the horde.

just run prime war beast and feather cloak. both offense and defense, and increased threat range to get more models into the shooting

 

[ILKAIN]

The main issue with the flame throws is to get much effect from them you want to be in combat range. Which means in most scenarios you are either hoping for a double turn or you have to survive two rounds of combat with a horde while only having 12 wounds a 4+ save. If a horde can't kill that then you probably don't need to kill the horde.

also, if that horde is sitting on an objective I can think of a really good reason to thin it out even if its not an actual threat to the chief

 

[LizardWizard]

also, if that horde is sitting on an objective I can think of a really good reason to thin it out even if its not an actual threat to the chief

Sure, but the Steggadon is one model. You are going to need to send another horde to take it unless you can wipe them or battleshock them off it.

You are still having to wait a turn or two to get to shoot with it unless you were already fairly close. So, in an ideal case, you start 3" away and have 5" worth of reach to measure models. Assuming you are squared off and not having to approach from an angle of disadvantage you could expect to get 15-20'ish in range if the target unit is on 25mm. Shooting twice means you will deal about 10-13 MWs. Which is pretty close to the average damage of the Starstreak Bow when it also has +1 attack over two turns (or better if the horde has a poor save characteristic). So, if in most cases you lose a turn worth of shooting to get into position then you are generally breaking even with the bow or coming out worse off. If you can survive through two rounds of combat or get the double turn then the flamer becomes better. Horns, Jaws, and Stomps are almost more likely to clean up the hordes than the Flammers simply due to the phases.

A 3+ save and 12 wounds is still not enough to survive most hordes in the game. The Flamers are cool, but I don't see them having much impact against the top armies at events in the current meta.

The only time I see Flamers as being strong is if you are planning to position on the table to dissuade the opponent from charging hordes into your screen if you support them with a Steggadon Chief that is a few inches back. Also, if you are able to get into combat with some shooting hordes and you can double turn them.

The potential is high, but I am dubious that the on table play will achieve much in a competitive environment.

Basically, I would just rather hit that horde with Stellar Tempest and save the 270 points.

 

[ILKAIN]

Sure, but the Steggadon is one model. You are going to need to send another horde to take it unless you can wipe them or battleshock them off it.

You are still having to wait a turn or two to get to shoot with it unless you were already fairly close. So, in an ideal case, you start 3" away and have 5" worth of reach to measure models. Assuming you are squared off and not having to approach from an angle of disadvantage you could expect to get 15-20'ish in range if the target unit is on 25mm. Shooting twice means you will deal about 10-13 MWs. Which is pretty close to the average damage of the Starstreak Bow when it also has +1 attack over two turns (or better if the horde has a poor save characteristic). So, if in most cases you lose a turn worth of shooting to get into position then you are generally breaking even with the bow or coming out worse off. If you can survive through two rounds of combat or get the double turn then the flamer becomes better. Horns, Jaws, and Stomps are almost more likely to clean up the hordes than the Flammers simply due to the phases.

A 3+ save and 12 wounds is still not enough to survive most hordes in the game. The Flamers are cool, but I don't see them having much impact against the top armies at events in the current meta.

The only time I see Flamers as being strong is if you are planning to position on the table to dissuade the opponent from charging hordes into your screen if you support them with a Steggadon Chief that is a few inches back. Also, if you are able to get into combat with some shooting hordes and you can double turn them.

The potential is high, but I am dubious that the on table play will achieve much in a competitive environment.

Basically, I would just rather hit that horde with Stellar Tempest and save the 270 points.

maybe, but you aren't running your skystreak bow into the mob. your gonna sit back and plink heroes with it.

*and you aren't gonna get stampede mortals either, which go off on a 3+

 

[LizardWizard]

maybe, but you aren't running your skystreak bow into the mob. your gonna sit back and plink heroes with it.

*and you aren't gonna get stampede mortals either, which go off on a 3+

I mean, If I math it out and think the Steggadon will kill enough of the horde in combat then I will send it in. They aren't a bad counter charger. They are just really bad at surviving through combat against hordes.

 

[ILKAIN]

I mean, If I math it out and think the Steggadon will kill enough of the horde in combat then I will send it in. They aren't a bad counter charger. They are just really bad at surviving through combat against hordes.

unless you give it some survivability lol. starprist -1 and cloak -1... -2 to be hit is pretty damn good against high volume low accuracy attacks... most hordes are 4+ or worse...so that's only 6's to hit. and then if you really need to you can starseer the save for a 3+

 

[LizardWizard]

unless you give it some survivability lol. starprist -1 and cloak -1... -2 to be hit is pretty damn good against high volume low accuracy attacks... most hordes are 4+ or worse...so that's only 6's to hit. and then if you really need to you can starseer the save for a 3+

Sure, but all those things are going to be better if you have a horde fighting a horde than a horde fighting a Steggadon. You also don't need any of those buffs up to just wipe a horde on the charge with Saurus Warriors under Serpent's Staff. I would rather polish a gem than a turd.

The issue isn't the damage of the Flamethrowers. It is that it takes too long to come into play and requires too many resources that are better spent on other units. You have to get in range. And then stay in range. lets assume you have managed to survive the round of combat. If you don't win the roll for the next turn then the horde, if it is played by a thinking person, will just back up and reset the whole process. The amount of counter play available to the enemy is too great, imo.

I generally only rely on things that can be set up and executed in a single turn unless a multi-turn ability is guaranteed.

 

[ILKAIN]

Sure, but all those things are going to be better if you have a horde fighting a horde than a horde fighting a Steggadon. You also don't need any of those buffs up to just wipe a horde on the charge with Saurus Warriors under Serpent's Staff. I would rather polish a gem than a turd.

The issue isn't the damage of the Flamethrowers. It is that it takes too long to come into play and requires too many resources that are better spent on other units. You have to get in range. And then stay in range. lets assume you have managed to survive the round of combat. If you don't win the roll for the next turn then the horde, if it is played by a thinking person, will just back up and reset the whole process. The amount of counter play available to the enemy is too great, imo.

I generally only rely on things that can be set up and executed in a single turn unless a multi-turn ability is guaranteed.

yeah but you aren't bringing a horde with a TL which is the only time you are getting that extra attack

I understand your logic, I don't even disagree, I just get the impression you forgot about it being locked in a TL.

 

[LizardWizard]

yeah but you aren't bringing a horde with a TL which is the only time you are getting that extra attack

I understand your logic, I don't even disagree, I just get the impression you forgot about it being locked in a TL.

20-40x Saurus Warriors should do just fine in a TL list. If you are wanting to only play with behemoths; then I agree, putting flamethrowers on the chief is a great way to have something to work against hordes. I just would look to find something more reliable.

 

[Grotpunter]

20-40x Saurus Warriors should do just fine in a TL list. If you are wanting to only play with behemoths; then I agree, putting flamethrowers on the chief is a great way to have something to work against hordes. I just would look to find something more reliable.

Thats my impression as well. A lot of people talk about just bringing a bunch of big dinos in a TL list - But it will 100% be a trap. Sure it might be fun for casual games, but it is certainly not the most optimized way of playing that subfaction.

 

[Killer Angel]

Thats my impression as well. A lot of people talk about just bringing a bunch of big dinos in a TL list - But it will 100% be a trap. Sure it might be fun for casual games, but it is certainly not the most optimized way of playing that subfaction.

No, it won't. Unless you're telling that the whole TL is a trap.
You don't take a sub-faction that buffs dinosaurs if you don't bring dinosaurs.

You certainly can avoid to bring a Thunderquake battalion, I'll grant you that… but an Oldblood on a carnosaur with 5 jaws attacks is impressive and anyway TL is the only place where a Laserdon is actually good.
So no, any TL list should include at least 2 big dinos, otherwise there would be no point in playing it.

 

[Grotpunter]

No, it won't. Unless you're telling that the whole TL is a trap.
You don't take a sub-faction that buffs dinosaurs if you don't bring dinosaurs.

You certainly can avoid to bring a Thunderquake battalion, I'll grant you that… but an Oldblood on a carnosaur with 5 jaws attacks is impressive and anyway TL is the only place where a Laserdon is actually good.
So no, any TL list should include at least 2 big dinos, otherwise there would be no point in playing it.

There is a big difference between going Stegageddon, and only fielding maybe 2 Bastiladons and 1 EoTG or whatever. And that is exactly my point. Im not saying you should go with an army entirely of Skinks or Saurus, but going full Stegageddon isnt viable. You need blocks of infantry.

Also, if you arent a fan of Saurus but at the same time dont want to play Starborne, TL is really the only option for a shooty/magic heavy list, unless you obviously go Coalesced with no-subfaction, but the ability to activate a Bastiladon twice is too good to pass up on imo. Scaly Skin is still fantastic on a unit of 40 Skinks.

 

[Killer Angel]

There is a big difference between going Stegageddon, and only fielding maybe 2 Bastiladons and 1 EoTG or whatever. And that is exactly my point. Im not saying you should go with an army entirely of Skinks or Saurus, but going full Stegageddon isnt viable. You need blocks of infantry.

ah yes, I absolutely agree on that. Stegageddon is just for fun, it's not viable for tournaments or competitive play.

 

[ILKAIN]

There is a big difference between going Stegageddon, and only fielding maybe 2 Bastiladons and 1 EoTG or whatever. And that is exactly my point. Im not saying you should go with an army entirely of Skinks or Saurus, but going full Stegageddon isnt viable. You need blocks of infantry.

Also, if you arent a fan of Saurus but at the same time dont want to play Starborne, TL is really the only option for a shooty/magic heavy list, unless you obviously go Coalesced with no-subfaction, but the ability to activate a Bastiladon twice is too good to pass up on imo. Scaly Skin is still fantastic on a unit of 40 Skinks.

of course, im not saying go stegaggeddon. im saying your focus wont be buffing a 40 man block of Saurus in a TL.

im still working on my list but its looking like it will be 1 chief, 2 stegs 2 basti and then supporting heros/ 3 battle line tax

 

[LizardWizard]

of course, im not saying go stegaggeddon. im saying your focus wont be buffing a 40 man block of Saurus in a TL.

im still working on my list but its looking like it will be 1 chief, 2 stegs 2 basti and then supporting heros/ 3 battle line tax

This is about as competitive as I feel I can get Thunder Lizards.