AoS Loophole in the Fangs of Sotek's "Parting Shot" ability?

[Stormscales]

Apologies if this has been discussed before, I'm logging in after a long hiatus...

The Parting Shot rule is clearly intended to give Skinks of the Fangs of Sotek a hit-and-run ability when being charged, so that they can shoot the charging unit, then withdraw from combat on a roll of 4+.

However... nowhere does the rule say that the Skink unit that uses Parting Shot must actually have been charged. It only says that this ability is triggered "at the end of your opponent's charge phase"; whether or not any charges took place, and whether or not your Skinks are in contact with the enemy.

Therefore, it seems that your Skinks get a "free" shooting phase during your opponent's turn, so long as they are wholly within 18'' of a Skink hero. Am I missing something, or is there a glaring loophole that will almost certainly be errata'd away in the coming weeks?

 

[Carnikang]

That's what it says. But it will likely be FAQd to only be usable on units within 3" of enemy units that have made a charge move or something else restrictive.

 

[LizardWizard]

Currently we just get to spend a CP and shoot. Hard to say what the intent is, but the rule currently works as you think it does.

 

[ILKAIN]

if you read it as is, you can spend the CP to shoot. then IF the unit is within 3" of an enemy it can make a retreat move but not advance as part of that move. if it is not in combat it cant move.

 

[Carnikang]

if you read it as is, you can spend the CP to shoot. then IF the unit is within 3" of an enemy it can make a retreat move but not advance as part of that move. if it is not in combat it cant move.

The wording is "it may make a normal move; if it does it must retreat and cannot run"
Seems like it just has to adhere to the retreat rules for movement.

The pertinent part is : If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units.

Meaning, you can use it to slip by units in the charge phase as well, even if you were unengaged, as long as you end outside of 3".

 

[LizardWizard]

The wording is "it may make a normal move; if it does it must retreat and cannot run"
Seems like it just has to adhere to the retreat rules for movement.

The pertinent part is : If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units.

Meaning, you can use it to slip by units in the charge phase as well, even if you were unengaged, as long as you end outside of 3".

Correct! It is massive. And one of the reasons FoS is my favorite Subfaction atm.

 

[Stormscales]

Correct! It is massive. And one of the reasons FoS is my favorite Subfaction atm.

Enjoy it while it lasts, because I highly doubt this interpretation of the rules will survive the inevitable FAQ. It pretty obviously runs counter to the intent of the rules.

That being said, Fangs of Sotek remains an excellent subfaction, as far as I can see. I'll definitely be running them. That extra 3 inches of movement for Skinks on the first round is pretty big, given that Skinks' 8-inch movement and the 16-inch range of their dartpipes is exactly the minimum distance separating you from your opponent (assuming that you both deploy on the edge of your deployment zone). With those 3 inches, you go from maybe getting a few Skinks into range on round 1, to reliably getting your entire squad into range.

 

[ILKAIN]

you guys are missing the interaction. the rules state it cant make a normal move if its in combat it makes a retreat instead. this command says it MUST make a retreat move, which it cant make if its not in combat.

 

[ILKAIN]

here is relevant interaction.

 

[Carnikang]

you guys are missing the interaction. the rules state it cant make a normal move if its in combat it makes a retreat instead. this command says it MUST make a retreat move, which it cant make if its not in combat.

Retreat moves are not locked to only being if a unit is in combat. It is a normal movement with extra restrictions. Retreat moves are the only move available to units in melee, yes. But, you can definitely state that with a normally moving unit that you want to retreat with them. Nothing precludes this. You just normally have no reason to except in very specific niche cases.

 

[ILKAIN]

Retreat moves are not locked to only being if a unit is in combat. It is a normal movement with extra restrictions. Retreat moves are the only move available to units in melee, yes. But, you can definitely state that with a normally moving unit that you want to retreat with them. Nothing precludes this. You just normally have no reason to except in very specific niche cases.

i disagree with your logic when placed against the clear wording of the rules.

normal move (normal to differentiate between pile in and charge moves) is a move in the movement phase when a unit is not in combat
retreat is a normal move when the unit IS in combat.

command says "after you have resolved all that units shooting attacks, roll a dice, on a 4+, that unit CAN make a normal move; if it does, it MUST retreat but cannot run"

the command clearly states you can shoot with any skink unit at the end of your opponents charge phase, but only a unit in combat can retreat per the core rules "units starting a normal move (command calls it a normal move) within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat." if you cant retreat (because you are not within 3") then you cannot do the second part of the command because you cannot do the type of normal move required (a retreat). also the second part of the command is not mandatory, it says "IF". this is clearly a case of the designers understanding they would have units not in combat being chosen to shoot covering fire.

so yes... retreat moves ARE locked in to when a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit.

 

[Carnikang]

i disagree with your logic when placed against the clear wording of the rules.

normal move (normal to differentiate between pile in and charge moves) is a move in the movement phase when a unit is not in combat
retreat is a normal move when the unit IS in combat.

command says "after you have resolved all that units shooting attacks, roll a dice, on a 4+, that unit CAN make a normal move; if it does, it MUST retreat but cannot run"

the command clearly states you can shoot with any skink unit at the end of your opponents charge phase, but only a unit in combat can retreat per the core rules "units starting a normal move (command calls it a normal move) within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat." if you cant retreat (because you are not within 3") then you cannot do the second part of the command because you cannot do the type of normal move required (a retreat). also the second part of the command is not mandatory, it says "IF". this is clearly a case of the designers understanding they would have units not in combat being chosen to shoot covering fire.

so yes... retreat moves ARE locked in to when a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit.

I quote the Designers Commentary.

Q: Some abilities refer to a model or unit making a ‘normal move’. Does this include normal moves where the model or unit runs or retreats?

A:Yes.

Q:S abilities allow a model to make a move out of sequence (in the hero phase, for example), or to make a specific type of move (a ‘6" retreat move’, for example). Can I run when I make these moves?

A: You can only run if the ability refers to making a ‘normal move’ (which includes any move made ‘as if it were the movement phase’) and the ability doesn’t specify the distance of the move. Note that the restrictions that apply to normal moves (not moving within 3" of the enemy, and having to retreat if they start within 3" of the enemy) also apply to normal moves made in any other phase. Also note that the increase to the unit’s Move characteristic for running only applies to that move. So, for example, if the ability said ‘This unit can make a normal move’ the unit could run and could not move within 3" of the enemy unless it retreats, and if it said ‘This unit can move D6".’ then it could not run but could move within 3" of the enemy.

Note the highlighted parts. Retreat is a must if you are within 3" of any enemy units, but not stated to ONLY be able to be done then.
You may only Retreat when using this ability, and there is NO STATED PASSAGE THAT SAYS THAT YOU MAY ONLY PERFORM A RETREAT IF YOU ARE WITHIN 3" OF AN ENEMY UNIT, NO OTHER TIME.

 

[ILKAIN]

"having to retreat if they start within 3" is literally that restriction you are saying doesn't exist my friend. that example doesn't include phrasing that says "MUST RETREAT" only that it has to if it starts with in 3".

im more than willing to wait till the FAQ to avoid an argument, but i wouldn't let you do that if i were playing against you.

 

[Carnikang]

"having to retreat if they start within 3" is literally that restriction you are saying doesn't exist my friend. that example doesn't include phrasing that says "MUST RETREAT" only that it has to if it starts with in 3".

im more than willing to wait till the FAQ to avoid an argument, but i wouldn't let you do that if i were playing against you.

It is a trigger phrase. You may not make any other move than a retreat if you're within 3" of an enemy unit.

Clearly you can still make a Retreat or Run if you have a Normal move available to you. It's not restricted otherwise. IE: You cannot make a Retreat move unless you are within 3" of an enemy unit. (This is not present)
I don't understand how someone cannot understand that. Much like how people cannot seem to understand how the Bastilidons save interacts with the actual printed rules of the game.

 

[ILKAIN]

It is a trigger phrase. You may not make any other move than a retreat if you're within 3" of an enemy unit.

Clearly you can still make a Retreat or Run if you have a Normal move available to you. It's not restricted otherwise. IE: You cannot make a Retreat move unless you are within 3" of an enemy unit. (This is not present)
I don't understand how someone cannot understand that. Much like how people cannot seem to understand how the Bastilidons save interacts with the actual printed rules of the game.

low blow. ive already I admitted I was wrong about nat 1's not failing

 

[Carnikang]

low blow. ive already I admitted I was wrong about nat 1's not failing

To be frank, that was not directed at you. It was more of a general gripe I have, that I found more common in the FB group.

No offense was meant.

 

[ILKAIN]

To be frank, that was not directed at you. It was more of a general gripe I have, that I found more common in the FB group.

No offense was meant.

ok. I am more than happy to bury the hatchet.

 

[Killer Angel]

you guys are missing the interaction. the rules state it cant make a normal move if its in combat it makes a retreat instead. this command says it MUST make a retreat move, which it cant make if its not in combat.

The rule doens't say exactly that you must make a retreat move. It says that "it may make a normal move". Then, it clarifies that the unit must retreat.
The general rule says that a unit starting a move within 3" of an enemy unit can remain stationary OR retreat.
the interaction is that our rule dictates than we can shoot, but we must also retreat, and we cannot remain stationary.


That said, i'm pretty sure it will be FAQed in the way it was intended to work (basically, only when you're charged)

 

[Canas]

Enjoy it while it lasts, because I highly doubt this interpretation of the rules will survive the inevitable FAQ. It pretty obviously runs counter to the intent of the rules.

Why? They're skirmishers skirmishing, this is exactly what they should be doing. And given the CP cost it's even reasonably balanced (or at least, there's a reasonable associated cost).

The rule doens't say exactly that you must make a retreat move. It says that "it may make a normal move". Then, it clarifies that the unit must retreat.
The general rule says that a unit starting a move within 3" of an enemy unit can remain stationary OR retreat.
the interaction is that our rule dictates than we can shoot, but we must also retreat, and we cannot remain stationary.


That said, i'm pretty sure it will be FAQed in the way it was intended to work (basically, only when you're charged)

Imho, it's just there to indicate you can't stand still and must end up out of combat to prevent players from using it to get a pile-in on a more favourable target.

I don't understand how someone cannot understand that. Much like how people cannot seem to understand how the Bastilidons save interacts with the actual printed rules of the game.

meh, the bastilidons save is just stupidly written. A 1+ value should indicate a natural 1 succeeds, after all why bother otherwise. They should've just said it's rend-immune at full health and has a 2+ save, it'd have the same end effect but at least people wouldn't be confused.

 

[ILKAIN]

Why? They're skirmishers skirmishing, this is exactly what they should be doing. And given the CP cost it's even reasonably balanced (or at least, there's a reasonable associated cost).


Imho, it's just there to indicate you can't stand still and must end up out of combat to prevent players from using it to get a pile-in on a more favourable target.


meh, the bastilidons save is just stupidly written. A 1+ value should indicate a natural 1 succeeds, after all why bother otherwise. They should've just said it's rend-immune at full health and has a 2+ save, it'd have the same end effect but at least people wouldn't be confused.

you can stand still though... the move is optional.