8th Ed. Overcoming the Odds... My Force to take on Warriors of Chaos

[airjamy]

How big did you make your Skink regiments in the tournament you played?

And, honestly, how does this ****ing redirector thing work? I haven't been able to find a good description/advice thread. I guess you put your crappy unit at an angle to the opponent's so that they have to charge you to move forward, but would be forced to turn diagonally? Don't they just ignore the crappy unit (like a small Skink cohort) and continue on towards something else? (like in this case, my TG and Slann unit which will end up being worth 800+ points and a major prize to destroy)

I always keep them at 10, and I had 6 units. Another popular size is 13, because then you only need to take a panic test when you take 4 casualties instead of 3, but it makes them slightly less maneuverable.

On redirecting, the trick is to put your crappy unit directly in front (like 1 inch) of the unit you want to redirect. Then you put your unit at an angle, facing away from where they want to go. This makes it so they can't charge anything but that unit, they are only allowed one wheel on the charge and they can't hit any other enemy units while charging.

So you force them to fight the skinks (who are very dead from that point, but it's sometimes worth it). The reason you put them in an angle is for your opponent to make the overrun or pursue move bad, as it will make them run in the angle you would like them to (which presumably is bad for them). They will probably elect to reform and stay put, but if they are frenzied they can't, and they can still fail the restrain test. The enemy unit then stays in place, giving you often two turns of time. And indeed, your TG unit will be worth a massive amount of points, if your Slann dies you probably die, so don't let that happen if you can!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Scalenex linked a very nice thread on all things redirection from the high elf forum in his skink chief tactica ( http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/different-skink-chief-roles.12562/ ). The principles assume you are using a great eagle but a lot of the fundamentals can be used by any high movement unit.

link:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=33028

Thanks @Karnus, read those and they are fantastic! Very smart.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I always keep them at 10, and I had 6 units. Another popular size is 13, because then you only need to take a panic test when you take 4 casualties instead of 3, but it makes them slightly less maneuverable.

On redirecting, the trick is to put your crappy unit directly in front (like 1 inch) of the unit you want to redirect. Then you put your unit at an angle, facing away from where they want to go. This makes it so they can't charge anything but that unit, they are only allowed one wheel on the charge and they can't hit any other enemy units while charging.

So you force them to fight the skinks (who are very dead from that point, but it's sometimes worth it). The reason you put them in an angle is for your opponent to make the overrun or pursue move bad, as it will make them run in the angle you would like them to (which presumably is bad for them). They will probably elect to reform and stay put, but if they are frenzied they can't, and they can still fail the restrain test. The enemy unit then stays in place, giving you often two turns of time. And indeed, your TG unit will be worth a massive amount of points, if your Slann dies you probably die, so don't let that happen if you can!

That's a really good summation of it. Cheers matey!

I also read the form and threads that @Karnus recommended, I'm tooling up two skink chiefs on terradons to be the Great Eagle equivalent. They will be the DP of nurgle assassins. Give one Egg of Quango and the other Light Armour, blowpipe (just for kicks), Fencers Blades, Charmed shield and Dragonhelm. Charge both at DP, let off the Hand GrenEgg, then challenge DP with the other one. He might survive to attack back as he'll have a 2+ armour save and then the other flees combat to do something else. Might be a disaster but will be fun to try.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

So I'm trying to get my head around what I do with the Hellcannon...

It doesn't seem like I have an option apart from Magic, which isn't even that great, as the things that could make it to the opposite side of the board in time are flying skinks (cloak of feathers, terradon, rippers) which won't stand up to a round of combat with a WS4, S5, T6, A5, 4+, 5++ Hellcannon...

I can potentially use a skink chief Quango-grenade on the DP and then finish him off with a Cowboy or some such (and he will be available to charge since my opponent loves to get him into combat with the mark of nurgle), but the Hellcannon has me a bit stymied.

@Scalenex @airjamy @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @ASSASSIN_NR_1 @NIGHTBRINGER @Aginor @Imrahil

Any advice from seasoned campaigners?

 

[Scalenex]

4-6 Kroxigor will take down Hellcannons pretty easily IF they can get in close combat with it which is no small feat.

That's the only way I've ever taken one down, normally I just try to mitigate the damage they inflict by avoiding giving them juicy targets as much as lizardly possible and always giving my Slann an Iron Curse Icon to defend the Temple Guard.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

4-6 Kroxigor will take down Hellcannons pretty easily IF they can get in close combat with it which is no small feat.

That's the only way I've ever taken one down, normally I just try to mitigate the damage they inflict by avoiding giving them juicy targets as much as lizardly possible and always giving my Slann an Iron Curse Icon to defend the Temple Guard.

Thanks. Have you ever tried Skink Chief with fencers blade on Terradon to tie it up for a couple of turns?

 

[Scalenex]

Thanks. Have you ever tried Skink Chief with fencers blade on Terradon to tie it up for a couple of turns?

I have never tried this. That is clever and could work if the Skink isn't shot down with a magic missile first.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

which won't stand up to a round of combat with a WS4, S5, T6, A5, 4+, 5++ Hellcannon...

Why would they get in combat though? If they have fly they should be able to avoid the DP unless he guards the cannon in which case I'm guessing he wastes his points.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I meant that the only things I could think that could make it to the other side of the board to do anything with the Hellcannon were flying type of people.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so I feel like I have taken the advice as given and this is what I have come up with.

I will be fielding it (fingers crossed that life doesn't kick me between the legs again) on 22 February and will put a report up on the battle reps thread:

Slann: Becalming Cog, Harm Conv, WD, Channeling Staff, Egg of Quango
21 TG (mainly for protecting Slann based on my earlier experience and to be deployed on opposite end of table to slow WoC infantry)

OB: Talisman of Protection, Steg Helm, The Other Tricksters Shard, GW, CO
SV: Armour of Destiny, GW, CO
(This is my hunter-killer unit for the inevitable Chaos Knight unit. They won't be next to each other so TOTS doesn't affect ward saves)

Skink Chief: on Terradon, Glittering scales, Dragon Helm, Enchanted shield, relic blade
(As he is flying cavalry, he gets the 12" initial move before anything else and aim is to get him into combat with Hellcannon to buy myself, hopefully, a 1-2 turn respite from being shot at)

2 Skink Priests: Both level 2 with lore of beasts to maximize chance of getting spear spell, spell which makes any terrain dangerous terrain to also slow down units further or the Transformation of Kadon (which if I get it will be a charge something big like DP or Chaos Knights, throw-all-my-dice-into-making-it-irresistable-force, take the chance of dying but go for the biggest beast so even if it takes a couple of wounds then he still has a bunch to spare)

Gor-Rok with 28 Saurus
(because I feel I need to have at least one other infantry block, will be Stubborn because of character so should be okay in combat)

6 x 10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelin
(Get off as many shots as possible, but to try doing the redirecting tactics as laid out by @airjamy (thanks for that))

2 Razordons for running around and shooting at stuff

2 Stegadons with Great Bows (for more shooting stuff)

---

So basic battle plan will be to throw the skinks into the face of the infantry blocks, fire all weapons as much as possible and evade as much as possible. Keep the TG and Saurus unit out of combat for as long as possible, but keep the stegs near them to use as counter charge measures. Fire off as many spells as I can with the Harm Conv/Channeling staff/Wandering Deliberations combo.

What do you guys reckon?

@NIGHTBRINGER @Scalenex @ASSASSIN_NR_1 @airjamy @Killer Angel @Aginor

Cheers

 

[Scalenex]

Solid list. It's fine as is.

That said, 6 units of Skinks seems a bit excessive. You probably will be able to meet all your redirecting needs with 4 or 5.

21 Temple Guards seems a little low.

How many Hellcannons are you likely to face? If the answer is two you probably want to swap your Egg of Quango for an Iron Curse Icon.

2 Stegadons with Great Bows (for more shooting stuff)

Stegadons are a useful monster, but they are not useful for shooting at stuff. Most giant bow shots will be at long range and most of the time you will be moving and shooting. We are talking 6 required to hit every time.

2 Razordons for running around and shooting at stuff

Razordons are not bad. Especially if you keep in mind that they are good at making surprise flank charges. Still their shooting is a bit redundant with your 60 Skink skirmishers.

If it were me, I would probably drop the Razordons and take Ancient Stegadons but that's a personal preference, it's not a infallible rule.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Solid list. It's fine as is.

That said, 6 units of Skinks seems a bit excessive. You probably will be able to meet all your redirecting needs with 4 or 5.

21 Temple Guards seems a little low.

How many Hellcannons are you likely to face? If the answer is two you probably want to swap your Egg of Quango for an Iron Curse Icon.



Stegadons are a useful monster, but they are not useful for shooting at stuff. Most giant bow shots will be at long range and most of the time you will be moving and shooting. We are talking 6 required to hit every time.



Razordons are not bad. Especially if you keep in mind that they are good at making surprise flank charges. Still their shooting is a bit redundant with your 60 Skink skirmishers.

If it were me, I would probably drop the Razordons and take Ancient Stegadons but that's a personal preference, it's not a infallible rule.

I took a bit more skinks as I had to spend enough on core.... Do you think I should take more Sauri?

I cut down the TG to make all points fit from Heroes amount tbh...

I'll take another look at the Stegadons vs Razordons thing...

 

[Scalenex]

If you barely hit your 25% Core requirement you are probably okay with 60 Skinks.

I did some mathhammer a while ago. Razordons are just barely better at shooting than Javelin Skinks on a point for point basis.

Razordons are much better than Skinks at fighting close combat, so maybe they are still worth it. Who knows?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Wow. I didn't even think of it like that, but it's a good point. ("mathhammer" is brilliant)

I'll give it a try this time and see how they do.

Do you think I should try another unit of Sauri? Or stick with the Skinks?

Sauri did horrendous last time against WoC so I'm mainly including that one big unit so there is at least someone to counter attack with once I've finished all shooting and spells.

 

[airjamy]

Okay, so I feel like I have taken the advice as given and this is what I have come up with.

I will be fielding it (fingers crossed that life doesn't kick me between the legs again) on 22 February and will put a report up on the battle reps thread:

Slann: Becalming Cog, Harm Conv, WD, Channeling Staff, Egg of Quango
21 TG (mainly for protecting Slann based on my earlier experience and to be deployed on opposite end of table to slow WoC infantry)

OB: Talisman of Protection, Steg Helm, The Other Tricksters Shard, GW, CO
SV: Armour of Destiny, GW, CO
(This is my hunter-killer unit for the inevitable Chaos Knight unit. They won't be next to each other so TOTS doesn't affect ward saves)

Skink Chief: on Terradon, Glittering scales, Dragon Helm, Enchanted shield, relic blade
(As he is flying cavalry, he gets the 12" initial move before anything else and aim is to get him into combat with Hellcannon to buy myself, hopefully, a 1-2 turn respite from being shot at)

2 Skink Priests: Both level 2 with lore of beasts to maximize chance of getting spear spell, spell which makes any terrain dangerous terrain to also slow down units further or the Transformation of Kadon (which if I get it will be a charge something big like DP or Chaos Knights, throw-all-my-dice-into-making-it-irresistable-force, take the chance of dying but go for the biggest beast so even if it takes a couple of wounds then he still has a bunch to spare)

Gor-Rok with 28 Saurus
(because I feel I need to have at least one other infantry block, will be Stubborn because of character so should be okay in combat)

6 x 10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelin
(Get off as many shots as possible, but to try doing the redirecting tactics as laid out by @airjamy (thanks for that))

2 Razordons for running around and shooting at stuff

2 Stegadons with Great Bows (for more shooting stuff)

---

So basic battle plan will be to throw the skinks into the face of the infantry blocks, fire all weapons as much as possible and evade as much as possible. Keep the TG and Saurus unit out of combat for as long as possible, but keep the stegs near them to use as counter charge measures. Fire off as many spells as I can with the Harm Conv/Channeling staff/Wandering Deliberations combo.

What do you guys reckon?

@NIGHTBRINGER @Scalenex @ASSASSIN_NR_1 @airjamy @Killer Angel @Aginor

Cheers

Looks like a more than reasonable list. I just have one major caveat, you need at least 30TG to properly protect your Slann. You got to many points in heroes imho, you need more boots on the ground. I would cut the skink chief as his goal (tying up one unit for 1-2 turns, maybe) seems to not be worthwhile and too 'cute'. I would also cut one priest ( you won't need 8 levels of magic in your list, you won't have enough power dice to feed all of them) and you can start swapping to beasts with High Magic from your Slann to get the Spear against the DP. Transformation of Kadon is also just bad imho. It is really akward if you put your priest into combat and then the Transformation gets scrolled, that is just a lot of points to your opponent and you will have a dead wizard. And even if the spell goes off, the wounds transfer over after it wears off. So even if your dragon with 6 wounds total got 2 from the unit he was fighting with, if he changes back to the Skink he instantly dies, which is bad. Transformation is just unplayable, if you want my honest opinion. I would also cut the Egg of Quano, it is too random for it's expenditure, 3 more temple guard will serve your needs better 99% of the time.

Also doesn't the other tricksters shard also make you reroll your own ward ward saves? You might want to kit your OB with the Dawnstone if that is the case, that might just be better either way (Dawnstone with 1+save is gooood, especially with the extra toughness).

For the rest, I can see the point of @Scalenex that this is a lot of shooting, but I think that is what you want in this matchup so I wouldn't cut on it, but that's just how I approach this matchup, a lot of people differ in opinion on this!

Look forward to your write-up, if the 22 happens!

 

[Scalenex]

@airjamy is wise.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Looks like a more than reasonable list. I just have one major caveat, you need at least 30TG to properly protect your Slann. You got to many points in heroes imho, you need more boots on the ground. I would cut the skink chief as his goal (tying up one unit for 1-2 turns, maybe) seems to not be worthwhile and too 'cute'. I would also cut one priest ( you won't need 8 levels of magic in your list, you won't have enough power dice to feed all of them) and you can start swapping to beasts with High Magic from your Slann to get the Spear against the DP. Transformation of Kadon is also just bad imho. It is really akward if you put your priest into combat and then the Transformation gets scrolled, that is just a lot of points to your opponent and you will have a dead wizard. And even if the spell goes off, the wounds transfer over after it wears off. So even if your dragon with 6 wounds total got 2 from the unit he was fighting with, if he changes back to the Skink he instantly dies, which is bad. Transformation is just unplayable, if you want my honest opinion. I would also cut the Egg of Quano, it is too random for it's expenditure, 3 more temple guard will serve your needs better 99% of the time.

Also doesn't the other tricksters shard also make you reroll your own ward ward saves? You might want to kit your OB with the Dawnstone if that is the case, that might just be better either way (Dawnstone with 1+save is gooood, especially with the extra toughness).

For the rest, I can see the point of @Scalenex that this is a lot of shooting, but I think that is what you want in this matchup so I wouldn't cut on it, but that's just how I approach this matchup, a lot of people differ in opinion on this!

Look forward to your write-up, if the 22 happens!

Thanks @airjamy

Do you have any suggestions on dealing with the Hellcannon? Last game it f**ked me up pretty badly so I definitely want to have a gameplan for it. Scalenex suggested Krox unit (if it can get to it). It will mess with the Skinks pretty bad since you have to take panic test with ANY casualties.

I think someone has pulled the wool over your eyes my friend, you can't scroll a spell that's already in play. I double checked the rules on that one because I was very worried about it. They have to use dice and dispelling a 16 or 20 power existing spell, plus dealing with the present magic phase attacks is gonna be pretty difficult.

Otherwise, I was planning to go with WD and the two Priests so had a pretty good chance of the three decent Beast lore spells, plus a whole bunch of attack spells. My theory is I need to rain as much pain in train (a poem?) until he arrives at my side of the board as possible.

Fair enough on the Egg of Quango versus TG.

TOTS doesn't affect your own ward save and since I want my OB to kill some characters, I will definitely need something for the inevitable ward save and possible Tzeentch ridiculousness.

Thanks mate! I love getting feedback from your guys as its a great sounding board.

YES! looking forwards to posting the turn by turn (i'll have to snap a pic each phase so I don't lose track).

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I think someone has pulled the wool over your eyes my friend, you can't scroll a spell that's already in play. I double checked the rules on that one because I was very worried about it. They have to use dice and dispelling a 16 or 20 power existing spell, plus dealing with the present magic phase attacks is gonna be pretty difficult.

What I think he means is, that if you charge your priest into combat and the spell is dispelled, maybe with a scroll the priest is dead.
If he stays out of combat when you cast it, then your opponent can use his power dice to dispel it at it's casting value (not what you rolled to cast it, but the 16+) and he could have just charged you, and can then easily kill the priest; Or just ignore it since it's not a threat anymore.

 

[airjamy]

What I think he means is, that if you charge your priest into combat and the spell is dispelled, maybe with a scroll the priest is dead.
If he stays out of combat when you cast it, then your opponent can use his power dice to dispel it at it's casting value (not what you rolled to cast it, but the 16+) and he could have just charged you, and can then easily kill the priest; Or just ignore it since it's not a threat anymore.

That is indeed what I meant, thanks Assassin

 

[airjamy]

Thanks @airjamy

Do you have any suggestions on dealing with the Hellcannon? Last game it f**ked me up pretty badly so I definitely want to have a gameplan for it. Scalenex suggested Krox unit (if it can get to it). It will mess with the Skinks pretty bad since you have to take panic test with ANY casualties.

I think someone has pulled the wool over your eyes my friend, you can't scroll a spell that's already in play. I double checked the rules on that one because I was very worried about it. They have to use dice and dispelling a 16 or 20 power existing spell, plus dealing with the present magic phase attacks is gonna be pretty difficult.

Otherwise, I was planning to go with WD and the two Priests so had a pretty good chance of the three decent Beast lore spells, plus a whole bunch of attack spells. My theory is I need to rain as much pain in train (a poem?) until he arrives at my side of the board as possible.

Fair enough on the Egg of Quango versus TG.

TOTS doesn't affect your own ward save and since I want my OB to kill some characters, I will definitely need something for the inevitable ward save and possible Tzeentch ridiculousness.

Thanks mate! I love getting feedback from your guys as its a great sounding board.

YES! looking forwards to posting the turn by turn (i'll have to snap a pic each phase so I don't lose track).

About the cannon, it is the best unit in their book. Have you read the how to play against cannons tactica? I think honestly that has all you need. I would try to evade it, and perhaps kill or distract it with skinks if you can, or a cowboy, but obviously that unit is a problem.

Shard then sounds like a good idea! I thought you were going High, what signature spells do you specifically want against them? I often find that I only really want the Beast and Metal siggies, which makes it easy to switch to them from high in the early terms and have the best of both worlds so to speak.