Poll: Choose your favourite Dwarf army. There can be only one!

[Canas]

The new Kharadron Battletome will be coming next week, and with cover art as awesome as this, I’m not surprised that GW decided to bring it to the front of the queue:

Interestingly, unlike their Fyreslayer cousins, the Kharadron will not be getting any form of endless spells it seems as GW only said Tzeentch ones will be coming, but it makes sense given that they stubbornly insist on using reliable science over wishy-washy magic.

They could've given them something science-isch to counterbalance it, much like the fyreslayers have their technicly-not-magic endless spells (or even khorne). In general KO is massivly lacking in terms of magic and needs some kind of equivalent there. So it's kinda surprising they didnt get something. Admittadly, maybe they get some other nice toys.

The cover is a bit too 40k-ish though. AoS usually has a bit more grandeur and splendour in it. This is rather grim with muted colours by AoS standards.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

They could've given them something science-isch to counterbalance it, much like the fyreslayers have their technicly-not-magic endless spells (or even khorne). In general KO is massivly lacking in terms of magic and needs some kind of equivalent there. So it's kinda surprising they didnt get something. Admittadly, maybe they get some other nice toys.

That’s what I’m hoping - maybe they’ll receive a good lot of anti-magic items that their heroes can take, given that the Runelord’s now part of Cities of Sigmar as opposed to specifically Dispossessed, and is thus less accessible now for the two main Dwarf factions than he was.

The cover is a bit too 40k-ish though. AoS usually has a bit more grandeur and splendour in it. This is rather grim with muted colours by AoS standards.

Given that Kharadron would fit in 40K almost as well as AoS, I’m not bothered by this very much at all

 

[Canas]

Given that Kharadron would fit in 40K almost as well as AoS, I’m not bothered by this very much at all

Meh, it mostly dissapoints me a bit as AoS has always been far grander than the other warhammers. Which was nice. I mean, it had all the usuall attrocities & monsters and stuff. But there was still a bright vribrant feeling of adventure to it with some grandeur. It was far more mythical high-fantasy, with something that actually resembles hope. And so far they've more or less stuck with that.

This particular pictures is a bit too washed out. It lacks gravitas. And the enviroment doesn't really fit with what the KO are. It doesn't accentuate their steampunk natrue as the most steampunk parts are washed out in the background, the foreground only has the big gun. It doesn't accentuate their mercentile & greedy nature. And it doesn't accentuate their airborne nature (seriously why are they on the ground?)

 

[Aginor]

The cover is a bit too 40k-ish though. AoS usually has a bit more grandeur and splendour in it. This is rather grim with muted colours by AoS standards.

My thoughts exactly. I don't mind it but to me it screams Sci-Fi.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Meh, it mostly dissapoints me a bit as AoS has always been far grander than the other warhammers.

Warhammer Fantasy invalidates your point here

It doesn't accentuate their steampunk natrue as the most steampunk parts are washed out in the background, the foreground only has the big gun.

The Drillbill flying to perch upon the Thunderer’s shoulder is as good as foreground. Add to that the bionic leg, the armoured diving suit and the laser-eye on the helmet and there’s plenty of steampunk stuff on that one Thunderer alone.

And it doesn't accentuate their airborne nature (seriously why are they on the ground?)

Kharadron often make a lot of drop assaults in their lore (as all the races they come to assist are on the ground) and you can see the lower half of the hull of an Ironclad in the background that the Kharadron are disembarking from.

I always look at Kharadron as arriving like the Clone Troopers do in Star Wars Episode II - their airships descend from the skies and blast everything nearby to give the Kharadron room to disembark, before they continue the assault on the ground where their regular arms are in range and the ships fly off to engage more powerful targets that the infantry can’t kill on their own. This cover art captures that perfectly.

 

[Canas]

Warhammer Fantasy invalidates your point here

Fantasy never was particularly grand either.

The Drillbill flying to perch upon the Thunderer’s shoulder is as good as foreground. Add to that the bionic leg, the armoured diving suit and the laser-eye on the helmet and there’s plenty of steampunk stuff on that one Thunderer alone.

The drillbill is too far in the background, or at least too faded out, to draw much attention. In fact I thought it was simply a fairly large bird far in the background, not something small that was about to perch on his shoulder. The diving suit isn't all that distinguished from a regular suit of armour. And the laser eye works better, but is one small detail & "menacingly glowing red eye" isn't necesarly super steampunk.
The leg is by far the most steampunk, but again here the actual steampunk bit (the foot/ankle with all its complicated gears)) is relativly hidden and washed out.

​

Kharadron often make a lot of drop assaults in their lore (as all the races they come to assist are on the ground) and you can see the lower half of the hull of an Ironclad in the background that the Kharadron are disembarking from.

I mean, sure drop assaults make sense given that virtually everyone else lives on the ground. But the ship isn't very prominent, and it doesn't look like they're in the middle of a landing actions either. It looks more like the dwarf in the foreground just climbed out of a trench and is storming the enemies trenches with his friends following in the background.

I always look at Kharadron as arriving like the Clone Troopers do in Star Wars Episode II - their airships descend from the skies and blast everything nearby to give the Kharadron room to disembark, before they continue the assault on the ground where their regular arms are in range and the ships fly off to engage more powerful targets that the infantry can’t kill on their own. This cover art captures that perfectly.

Meh, to me this particular picture looks more like trench warfare with an airship (or possibly a large fortified tower, the faded out background makes it difficult to identify the ship as a ship unless you know it is a ship) providing covering fire.

Given that the cover art continues at the back it might be that the entire picture put together looks better. But this particular one I wouldn't have used as cover art. It's a neat artpiece, just not something that truly shows off KO or AoS imho.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Warhammer Fantasy invalidates your point here

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Fantasy never was particularly grand either.

I would debate that hotly sir.

AoS has improved in the last couple of years, but it is no match for Warhammer Fantasy on the gravitas and grandeur scale.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

A selection of the improvements to Kharadron have been teased here.

The sky-port allegiance abilities are being boosted tenfold, the highlights being Barak-Zilfin being allowed to take Frigates as Battleline in the style of Gristlegore Flesh Eater Courts and Barack-Thryng Kharadron being able to take Fyreslayer and Dispossessed units in their army to provide some close combat and monster muscle.

Skyvessel mechanics have been altered so that your units can shoot out of portholes and repel enemy melee fighters while embarked, which is pretty good for both parties, and the ships can also use the new Fly High rules to effectively teleport from one location to another instead of moving, as long as it hasn’t suffered more than 7 wounds (so you have to try and damage them as much as you can to stop them doing this).

Grundstok Thunderers have also been buffed considerably to make them viable again. With their new ‘Drive them back!’ ability, they make an extra attack when shooting at enemies within close combat range of them, making them especially unpleasant to engage.

Certainly looks like Kharadron are being given just as much love as their Fyreslayer cousins in their new update, and I’m certainly attracted to the idea of fielding an army of them with Fyreslayer allies to unite the Dwarf factions! For Grungni and Grimnir!

 

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, good news.
Not so much for my wallet.

 

[Canas]

meh, fantasy was never a grand adventure of splendour. It was mostly filled with squalor & misery in nearly every way.

A selection of the improvements to Kharadron have been teased here.

The sky-port allegiance abilities are being boosted tenfold, the highlights being Barak-Zilfin being allowed to take Frigates as Battleline in the style of Gristlegore Flesh Eater Courts and Barack-Thryng Kharadron being able to take Fyreslayer and Dispossessed unit’s in their army to provide some close combat and monster muscle.

Skyvessel mechanics have been altered so that your units can shoot out of portholes and repel enemy melee fighters while embarked, which is pretty good for both parties, and the ships can also use the new Fly High rules to effectively teleport from one location to another instead of moving, as long as it hasn’t suffered more than 7 wounds (so you have to try and damage them as much as you can to stop them doing this).

Grundstok Thunderers have also been buffed considerably to make them viable again. With their new ‘Drive them back!’ ability, they make an extra attack when shooting at enemies within close combat range of them, making them especially unpleasant to engage.

Certainly looks like Kharadron are being given just as much love as their Fyreslayer cousins in their new update, and I’m certainly attracted to the idea of fielding an army of them with Fyreslayer allies to unite the Dwarf factions! For Grungni and Grimnir!

I'm kinda curious how the teaming up with fyreslayers will look like. The dispossed I'm not tooo worried about. But dropping in a magmadroth or soemthing seems problematic at best.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

meh, fantasy was never a grand adventure of splendour. It was mostly filled with squalor & misery in nearly every way.

The splendour of Fantasy came from its illustrations, which work hand-in-hand with the lore. The illustrations in Fantasy often depict truly titanic battles of massive proportions. Far fewer such battles (if any) can be seen in AoS artwork.

I'm kinda curious how the teaming up with fyreslayers will look like. The dispossed I'm not tooo worried about. But dropping in a magmadroth or soemthing seems problematic at best.

Problematic? In what way? If anything bringing a Magmadroth into a Kharadron army would be a great way of including a strong melee unit that can both protect their missile units and also keep up with their airships.

 

[Canas]

The splendour of Fantasy came from its illustrations, which work hand-in-hand with the lore. The illustrations in Fantasy often depict truly titanic battles of massive proportions. Far fewer such battles (if any) can be seen in AoS artwork.

Yeah, but those weren't exactly resplendid. They're messy meatgrinders filled with dirty men in dented armour, what heraldy they carry is tattered and ripped. The fighters leering at eachother as they're ripping eachother apart. Noone really standing out, every individuel duel in that mess of a battlefield is just one of many and the outcome matters little. Mostly in a muted colour.

In contrast in AoS you have heroic charges with banners proudly flying with bright colours. Individual duels being accentuated to indicate a heroic last stand, a villain being cast down, or a hero about to recieve the final blow. Even if that hero in question is a "mere" liberator.

Hence why I'm saying AoS has more splendour and grandeur to it.

Problematic? In what way? If anything bringing a Magmadroth into a Kharadron army would be a great way of including a strong melee unit that can both protect their missile units and also keep up with their airships.

well the KO player is obviously happy. I meant that it seemed rather powerfull to give a ranged-focused faction acces to some of the best melee troops in the game, especially bigger stuff that requires relativly little support. Curious how that'l end up being, and if there's a drawback to it. Cuz at a first glance that seems rather powerfull.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The splendour of Fantasy came from its illustrations, which work hand-in-hand with the lore. The illustrations in Fantasy often depict truly titanic battles of massive proportions. Far fewer such battles (if any) can be seen in AoS artwork.

Also some really amazing special characters, many of whom were ported over to AoS. In fact, many aspects of WFB were copied into AoS.


To each their own. Some people like a masterpiece and some people like a photocopy of it.


That's not to say that AoS has not introduced some very interesting elements, of which I'd say the KO are the very best. That is a credit that AoS truly deserves as KO are radically different from anything belonging to WFB.

 

[Killer Angel]

That's not to say that AoS has not introduced some very interesting elements, of which I'd say the KO are the very best. That is a credit that AoS truly deserves as KO are radically different from anything belonging to WFB.

You know what?
I do believe that also the idea behind the Stormcast is not bad.
Sigmar that "steals" souls of heroes from Nagash to create an army of immortal warriors for the good side, thus pissing off the great necromancer and starting the Soul War, is good.

It's the army itself that it's awful.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Yeah, but those weren't exactly resplendid. They're messy meatgrinders filled with dirty men in dented armour, what heraldy they carry is tattered and ripped. The fighters leering at eachother as they're ripping eachother apart. Noone really standing out, every individuel duel in that mess of a battlefield is just one of many and the outcome matters little. Mostly in a muted colour.

In contrast in AoS you have heroic charges with banners proudly flying with bright colours. Individual duels being accentuated to indicate a heroic last stand, a villain being cast down, or a hero about to recieve the final blow. Even if that hero in question is a "mere" liberator.

Hence why I'm saying AoS has more splendour and grandeur to it.

Here are some similarly heroic charge illustrations from Fantasy as that seems to be your thing:

well the KO player is obviously happy. I meant that it seemed rather powerfull to give a ranged-focused faction acces to some of the best melee troops in the game, especially bigger stuff that requires relativly little support. Curious how that'l end up being, and if there's a drawback to it. Cuz at a first glance that seems rather powerfull.

GW didn’t actually preview the entire rule for this one at the moment, they just said that Barak-Thryng’s allegiance ability allowed Fyreslayer and Dispossessed units to be included in a Thryng army. They may specify more about the limits of the rule later on.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

That's not to say that AoS has not introduced some very interesting elements, of which I'd say the KO are the very best. That is a credit that AoS truly deserves as KO are radically different from anything belonging to WFB.

By all means, Idoneth and Kharadron are both really nice and unique new armies that add something different to AoS (indeed they’re partly the reason why I said that it’s certainly improved over the last couple of years), I was just saying that AoS to me has less of the grand sweeping mass battles compared to what we have in Fantasy, in the game, lore and art. That to me is what increases Fantasy’s score on the gravitas-o-meter.

You know what?
I do believe that also the idea behind the Stormcast is not bad.
Sigmar that "steals" souls of heroes from Nagash to create an army of immortal warriors for the good side, thus pissing off the great necromancer and starting the Soul War, is good.

It's the army itself that it's awful.

Yeah, pity we had to have something that looks so obviously looks like a rip-off of Space Marines and with so much boring angelic iconography when we could have had something much cooler, perhaps like the Lady of the Lake stealing souls from Nagash to turn them into tougher and more skilled Grail Knights, especially with the piece of lore of them losing more and more of their humanity with each reforging. That would have been great.

 

[Canas]

Here are some similarly heroic charge illustrations from Fantasy as that seems to be your thing:

See art like that seems to be relativly rare in fantasy (and to some extent 40K)

When I think WFB art I think more of stuff like this:

Just giant battlefields of two sides slamming into eachother. usually in two easily distinguishable colours. The individual soldiers barely distinguishable all just charging into the opponents line. In this case a bunch of elves smashing into a bunch of dwarfs.

In contrast in AoS you tend to have stuff liek this:

With the individual soldiers locked in a duel, not just slamming into an opposing line, often in a more dynamic formation. More colours than just red vs blue (though obviously the two armies still have a main colour). And usually a centerpiece duel where a hero is doing something besides just slamming into the opponents line.

The individual seems to matter more in these artworks & there's more heroism & grandeur in their individual actions. In WFB it's just a big battle, in AoS you focus in on individuals in those big battles. There's more of a story to the AoS art. Which is something I like. The WFB art is just some elves slamming into some skaven. What happens in the foreground is basicly the same as what happens in the background. In contrast in the AoS art it looks like the ogroid is an important character, protected by a retinue of tzaangor & a gaunt summoner while he takes on an angelic SCE. While in the background a massive battle rages on. It makes the individual fights happening in this artwork important.

It also doesn't help that generally speaking WFB (and 40K until recently) storywise was little more than people desperatly trying to keep their world from falling apart. In the knowledge that ultimatly it was probably hopeless. In AoS the "good" guys at least appear to be achieving something and occasional gain some ground on the bad guys. They don't just fight back the 13th black crusade knowing that it's only a matter of time till the 14th. And eventually one of those crusades is going to succeed (or storms of chaos in fantasy's case)

GW didn’t actually preview the entire rule for this one at the moment, they just said that Barak-Thryng’s allegiance ability allowed Fyreslayer and Dispossessed units to be included in a Thryng army. They may specify more about the limits of the rule later on.

Hence curious how it'l turn out

Yeah, pity we had to have something that looks so obviously looks like a rip-off of Space Marines and with so much boring angelic iconography when we could have had something much cooler, perhaps like the Lady of the Lake stealing souls from Nagash to turn them into tougher and more skilled Grail Knights, especially with the piece of lore of them losing more and more of their humanity with each reforging. That would have been great.

Meh, the SCE look isn't even that bad. Especially the two newer chambers are fairly nice as they're starting to get more details to distinguish them from space marines. Issue is mostly that for the first few years they got all the attention. Which made it far too easy to hate them.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Just giant battlefields of two sides slamming into eachother. usually in two easily distinguishable colours. The individual soldiers barely distinguishable all just charging into the opponents line. In this case a bunch of elves smashing into a bunch of dwarfs.

Those are some odd-looking Dwarfs!

I think you’ll find they’re Skaven, one of the sworn enemies of Dwarfkind!

That’s it, you’re name’s going into the Book of Grudges matey-boy

See art like that seems to be relativly rare in fantasy (and to some extent 40K)

When I think WFB art I think more of stuff like this:

In contrast in AoS you tend to have stuff liek this:

With the individual soldiers locked in a duel, not just slamming into an opposing line, often in a more dynamic formation. More colours than just red vs blue (though obviously the two armies still have a main colour). And usually a centerpiece duel where a hero is doing something besides just slamming into the opponents line.

There is Fantasy artwork that features duels as well:

So you see, the artwork isn’t actually all that different besides the different settings. Personally, I think the Warhammer Fantasy world still has more gravitas because there is a lot more established lore and a more realistic setting to fall back on, but to each their own. I’m not saying AoS is bad by any means or that I don’t like it, it’s certainly hundreds of times better than it was when it first arrived with no points values and Sigmarines dominating the release schedule, but, probably because I have grown up with Fantasy for over half my current lifetime on this Earth, Fantasy is still my favourite.

 

[Canas]

Those are some odd-looking Dwarfs!

I think you’ll find they’re Skaven, one of the sworn enemies of Dwarfkind!

That’s it, you’re name’s going into the Book of Grudges matey-boy

Dwarfs, skaven, what's the difference really. Both are short, greedy and like digging tunnels

There is Fantasy artwork that features duels as well:

So you see, the artwork isn’t actually all that different besides the different settings. Personally, I think the Warhammer Fantasy world still has more gravitas because there is a lot more established lore and a more realistic setting to fall back on, but to each their own. I’m not saying AoS is bad by any means or that I don’t like it, it’s certainly hundreds of times better than it was when it first arrived with no points values and Sigmarines dominating the release schedule, but, probably because I have grown up with Fantasy for over half my current lifetime on this Earth, Fantasy is still my favourite.

Meh, I'm sure it exists. It just seems to be far outnumbered by more grim stuff where the individual doesn't matter and there's little room for pagentry or nobility & heroism (or villainry). It's one of the bits I don't like about grimdark stuff, often it's pushed too far and it just gets a bit silly as it requires the heroes to be stupid. And least unrealistic noblebright heroes surviving cuz the cavalry arrived just in time only requires them to just be lucky.

AoS so far seems to hold a better balance between grimdark and noblebright, with more room for pagentry, nobility & heroism (and villainry) and a greater focus on individuals compared to the neverending "everything's trying to kill us and eventually it'l succeed" of WFB/40K