• The forum software have been upgraded to the latest version.

    If you notice anything that looks off, or does not work, please let us know.

    For more information, click here.

AoS Anti-Wishlist - What is your worst nightmare about Seraphon update?

ChapterAquila92 said:
I definitely agree that saurus units and heroes are currently left in the dust when it comes to the meta, and I'd hate for them to be relegated to the dustbin permanently as a result.

My biggest fear is that seraphon get turned into a one-trick pony that can only be played in a very specific way - summoning skink spam with at least 240pts worth of paperweight to power it.
Click to expand...
what do you mean "turned into" we are basically there now for 2k competitive events
 
Erta Wanderer said:
HoS is very summon heavy reliant on one model (the keeper) and there are 4+ established lists it's verry doable espeshaly if our monsters get battle line
Click to expand...
yeah, but HoS Summons nearly everything in its army regularly, we mostly just spam the same 2-3 units.

On top of that, HoS Summoning isn't dependent on 1 list. Every HoS list will have it to a greater or lesser extent as it's an allegiance ability and not the ability of 1 specifc model used as the general.

In short; HoS is an example of summoning done (more or less) right, we are not.
 
Canas said:
yeah, but HoS Summons nearly everything in its army regularly, we mostly just spam the same 2-3 units.

On top of that, HoS Summoning isn't dependent on 1 list. Every HoS list will have it to a greater or lesser extent as it's an allegiance ability and not the ability of 1 specifc model used as the general.

In short; HoS is an example of summoning done (more or less) right, we are not.
Click to expand...
but it's doable im not talking about what we are now no one is. if they can do it in other books they can do it here the problem is will they
 
My worst fear is that they change our aesthetic. No longer are we aztecamayan, but instead stone sci-fi. Rifles, pistols, energy shields.
I'm sure it could be done well, but I want us to stay grounded in the tribalistic and low tech design, even if we have those things in essence. (Oldblood Hand is basically a Lazer rifle built into a fuckin cool claw gauntlet)

That and a purge of our line, but with very few or no releases. Kroxigors, Sallies, Razordons, old blood on foot, Scar vet on Barney, chameleons, Eternity Warden, Astrolith, skink seer, Sunblood, and the Slann.... That's a huge chunk that could just go poof if they're feeling destructive.
 
If they nerf our dinosaurs, nerf LoSaT or our summoning I would lose it. Hopefully none of this will happen as those things are what define seraphon and make us an interesting faction on the table top.
 
Lizerd said:
If they nerf our dinosaurs, nerf LoSaT or our summoning I would lose it. Hopefully none of this will happen as those things are what define seraphon and make us an interesting faction on the table top.
Click to expand...
Exactly this. If i wanted to play an infantry spam army with strong magic I would have just played any of the death factions. I chose this army because it is highly flexible, it is able to play scenario, and can overwhelm enemy units through strong board positioning.

Saurus need a job other than just board control and delay. Whenever I bring a unit of 10 Saurus Knights in the DT/SS list they do good work when buffed 4 times from the ScV CO, but that is only time any Saurus unit has put out reasonable damage for me at a tournament. And it cost an arm and a leg to make it happen.

In short, you don't have to kill what currently works to fix something broken. My fear is that the Slann and skinks will get nerfed in order to pivot players toward Saurus instead of Saurus getting buffed to usable.

To me the Slann's summoning and LoSaT are the core identity of our faction. Hopefully that doesn't change.
 
Canas said:
given how powerfull summoning is, and how the mechanic completly depends on 1 model, with little to no options for going heavy or light summoning I wouldn't be so sure about this. We're quite likely to end up in a situation where the only viable build becomes "slann spamming 2-3 different units".
Click to expand...
EotGs is the middle of the road summon option. It also has the benefit of being a big dino who isn't total trash in combat for a support unit.

Additionally it is possible to lean more or less into summoning. Taking a Slann without an Astrolith, BwV, or Cogs is perfectly viable. Especially if you design your army around Thunderquake Starhost and are more focused on killing enemy units with shooting instead of controlling the battlefield. Even FoS doesn't need the full summoning apparatus. Cogs is certainly helpful to further boost the turn one movement gains, but isn't mandatory.

You can also go full summoning with Slann, Astrolith, EotGs x4, and both endless spells. If you do this then you can rely on the EotGs to provide the needed skinks and save your CCP for behemoths, Bastiladons, Razordons/Salamanders, and even Saurus Warriors.

The idea that summoning is all or nothing is a misconception. I am sure all the list that I post which nearly always feature healthy summoning apparatuses hasn't helped this perception. It isn't a prerequisite though. Just look @Blitzkriyg's success in the AUS GT with a low summon TQ.
 
LizardWizard said:
My fear is that the Slann and skinks will get nerfed in order to pivot players toward Saurus instead of Saurus getting buffed to usable.
Click to expand...

But how skinks can be nerfed further? They have already one of the worst warscroll in the game statwise. I expect wary fighters to become a retreat move, however, which will be a nerf in some way, but other than that... Game changed a lot since our battletome came out. A lot of stuff got 3+ to-hit, 4+ save, two wounds, etc. I can't imagine if Warriors are going to be without buff, if GW cares about them at all.
 
Another fear, that is sort of a plus.

We get a new SC box, with new sculpted Sauras, Knights, and Sauras Scar Vet on BAarny. All new, monopose like the S2D one.

But then that means Carnosaurs and Trogs are still $85 USD, and that's their only price now.
 
Or even worse, they somehow nerf skinks and Rippers, and make a new start collecting box that just features them and a star priest.

Like tada! Skink based SC, but everything in it isnt usable.
 
Lustrian Giant said:
Or even worse, they somehow nerf skinks and Rippers, and make a new start collecting box that just features them and a star priest.

Like tada! Skink based SC, but everything in it isnt usable.
Click to expand...
ugh that's what they did to my nids.. .old SC was tyrant, 3 warriors and 10 gargoyles. new one was trygon, broodlord and genestealers. no one uses trygon…..
 
LizardWizard said:
EotGs is the middle of the road summon option. It also has the benefit of being a big dino who isn't total trash in combat for a support unit.

Additionally it is possible to lean more or less into summoning. Taking a Slann without an Astrolith, BwV, or Cogs is perfectly viable. Especially if you design your army around Thunderquake Starhost and are more focused on killing enemy units with shooting instead of controlling the battlefield. Even FoS doesn't need the full summoning apparatus. Cogs is certainly helpful to further boost the turn one movement gains, but isn't mandatory.

You can also go full summoning with Slann, Astrolith, EotGs x4, and both endless spells. If you do this then you can rely on the EotGs to provide the needed skinks and save your CCP for behemoths, Bastiladons, Razordons/Salamanders, and even Saurus Warriors.

The idea that summoning is all or nothing is a misconception. I am sure all the list that I post which nearly always feature healthy summoning apparatuses hasn't helped this perception. It isn't a prerequisite though. Just look @Blitzkriyg's success in the AUS GT with a low summon TQ.
Click to expand...
Meh, I like the EoTG even less. It's a mess of a unit with no clear role or purpose. That unit needs an overhaul and be properly focussed into something instead of this mess of effects on a unit that wants to go into melee, but is too squishy and it's support too valuable to risk it. It's such a weird thing...
Also, even here the slann is inexplicably crucial to actually do the summoning reliably. Fielding an EoTG without slann for "summoning" is kinda pointless.

Also, with the EoTG being limited in what it can summon, and the summons themselves not necesarly making a whole lot of sense on top of needing the slann to even reliably trigger it taking an eotg as "light" summoning is lackluster at best.

As Slann + cogs + BwV + Astrolith being going for "more" summoning. Summoning still completly depends on the slann. An astrolith on its own achieves nothing. And the endless spells are merely sacrificial fodder to further empower your slann. It's an improvement, but not a particularly interesting one & a waste of the spells (as a concept..) as they're purely sacrificial...

As for 4xEoTGS + slann + spells being "full" summoning. I guess. It's still completly dependent on the slann though at least now there's enough EoTG's that occasionally one of them will succeed without the slann's help. And not necesarly very interesting.

Though I guess if they improve the EoTG to be more sensible, doubling down on various summoning mechanics (instead of this weird combination of freaking everything with damage, healing, buffs & summoning...) remove it's reliance on the slann, and allow the other skink heroes to help as well (e.g. prayers for more ccp). It could be salvaged while allowing the slann to remain the star of the show without him being the entire show himself.
 
Canas said:
Meh, I like the EoTG even less. It's a mess of a unit with no clear role or purpose. That unit needs an overhaul and be properly focussed into something instead of this mess of effects on a unit that wants to go into melee, but is too squishy and it's support too valuable to risk it. It's such a weird thing...
Also, even here the slann is inexplicably crucial to actually do the summoning reliably. Fielding an EoTG without slann for "summoning" is kinda pointless.

Also, with the EoTG being limited in what it can summon, and the summons themselves not necesarly making a whole lot of sense on top of needing the slann to even reliably trigger it taking an eotg as "light" summoning is lackluster at best.

As Slann + cogs + BwV + Astrolith being going for "more" summoning. Summoning still completly depends on the slann. An astrolith on its own achieves nothing. And the endless spells are merely sacrificial fodder to further empower your slann. It's an improvement, but not a particularly interesting one & a waste of the spells (as a concept..) as they're purely sacrificial...

As for 4xEoTGS + slann + spells being "full" summoning. I guess. It's still completly dependent on the slann though at least now there's enough EoTG's that occasionally one of them will succeed without the slann's help. And not necesarly very interesting.

Though I guess if they improve the EoTG to be more sensible, doubling down on various summoning mechanics (instead of this weird combination of freaking everything with damage, healing, buffs & summoning...) remove it's reliance on the slann, and allow the other skink heroes to help as well (e.g. prayers for more ccp). It could be salvaged while allowing the slann to remain the star of the show without him being the entire show himself.
Click to expand...
I would say that the EotGs has a pretty clearly defined purpose of being a flexible support behemoth.

I get that you don't like the Slann's current summoning mechanic, but I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of its engagement. I think you have an overly narrow concept of how BwV and Cogs are "suppose" to be used. Like the EotGs they add flexibility. The flexibility is amplified by the Slann's ability to generate CCP. If you are casting cogs, setting it to slow and forgetting about it then you are likely misplaying the army. Same goes for BwV if you forget about it's range increases. In every game at a tournament that I have had go to full rounds I have had to both slow down & speed up time at various points in the match. I have also had to make use of the extra spell range and the Slann's ability to change his spell lore at the end of each of our hero phases. Not to mention the added benefit of getting +1 save and rerolling saves from bwv and cogs. I can't think of any wizard who makes better use of Cogs and BwV to the fullest potential than a Slann does.

In the second to last round at the most recent tournament I played in I even had to set cogs to speed, dismiss the BwV, and run my Slann with a cp to get it range to summon onto an objective because I had to use LoSaT to steal others.

It seems to me that if you aren't finding rewarding play decisions with the current summoning build then you are either playing against non-challenging opponents or you are failing to provide your opponent with a challenge.
 
Canas said:
Meh, I like the EoTG even less. It's a mess of a unit with no clear role or purpose. That unit needs an overhaul and be properly focussed into something instead of this mess of effects on a unit that wants to go into melee, but is too squishy and it's support too valuable to risk it. It's such a weird thing...
Also, even here the slann is inexplicably crucial to actually do the summoning reliably. Fielding an EoTG without slann for "summoning" is kinda pointless.

Also, with the EoTG being limited in what it can summon, and the summons themselves not necesarly making a whole lot of sense on top of needing the slann to even reliably trigger it taking an eotg as "light" summoning is lackluster at best.

As Slann + cogs + BwV + Astrolith being going for "more" summoning. Summoning still completly depends on the slann. An astrolith on its own achieves nothing. And the endless spells are merely sacrificial fodder to further empower your slann. It's an improvement, but not a particularly interesting one & a waste of the spells (as a concept..) as they're purely sacrificial...

As for 4xEoTGS + slann + spells being "full" summoning. I guess. It's still completly dependent on the slann though at least now there's enough EoTG's that occasionally one of them will succeed without the slann's help. And not necesarly very interesting.

Though I guess if they improve the EoTG to be more sensible, doubling down on various summoning mechanics (instead of this weird combination of freaking everything with damage, healing, buffs & summoning...) remove it's reliance on the slann, and allow the other skink heroes to help as well (e.g. prayers for more ccp). It could be salvaged while allowing the slann to remain the star of the show without him being the entire show himself.
Click to expand...
why do you play seraphon? you seem to dislike every unit and ability we have.
 
LizardWizard said:
I would say that the EotGs has a pretty clearly defined purpose of being a flexible support behemoth.
Click to expand...
It's a support behemoth, but how it supports is rather badly defined. It's supportive effects are all over the place and (especially without slann) rather unreliable. It's powers need to be more focused. And preferably it should get something that isn't random in there.

Also, it suffers a fair amount from powercreep statwise. But that's a seperate issue :p

LizardWizard said:
I get that you don't like the Slann's current summoning mechanic, but I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of its engagement. I think you have an overly narrow concept of how BwV and Cogs are "suppose" to be used. Like the EotGs they add flexibility. The flexibility is amplified by the Slann's ability to generate CCP. If you are casting cogs, setting it to slow and forgetting about it then you are likely misplaying the army. Same goes for BwV if you forget about it's range increases. In every game at a tournament that I have had go to full rounds I have had to both slow down & speed up time at various points in the match. I have also had to make use of the extra spell range and the Slann's ability to change his spell lore at the end of each of our hero phases. Not to mention the added benefit of getting +1 save and rerolling saves from bwv and cogs. I can't think of any wizard who makes better use of Cogs and BwV to the fullest potential than a Slann does.
Click to expand...
With respect to the cogs & BwV my gripe is mostly that they're always going to be sacrificed to the slann. Though the point-cost of endless spells & rule of one are mostly what ruins it here for me. The slann makes the best use of the BwV so your skinks (or the occasionally allied wizard )will never get to use it. Which I find dissapointing, especially as it gets sacrificed for a mechanic I already don't find super interesting to begin with.

Ignoring for the moment that I don't like the CCP-generating mechanic the use of Cogs & BwV itself would be fine-ish.

LizardWizard said:
It seems to me that if you aren't finding rewarding play decisions with the current summoning build then you are either playing against none challenging opponents or you are failing to provide your opponent with a challenge.
Click to expand...
There's rewarding decisions, but none of them are related to the summoning mechanic itself. The question "should I burn this spell for CCP or hit that target with some mortal wounds" is nearly always rather obvious, and depressingly often is "go for the CCP". Decisions like "should I summon A to kill X, or summon B to grab an objective, or C to stall Y" are all interesting enough.

Let me put it this way, the playstyle as a whole, of a master summoner who adjust his army on the spot and calls down whatever reinforcements he needs, where he needs them. Is interesting. The mechanic of actually generating the CCP, the fact that it completly hinges on the slann & that the only real reason the slann even needs to be on the board is as a range indicator for summoning (the handfull of spells it actually does cast could just as well be done by a skink replacement, especially seeing as all the good spells the skinks knows anyway...) is what I find boring/bad.

Erta Wanderer said:
why do you play seraphon? you seem to dislike every unit and ability we have.
Click to expand...
I like the fluff. I like dinosaurs riding dinosaurs.

As for actual units, I like most of em, though a lot are massivly undertuned by now.

As for units/mechanics that I actually dislike (and aren't just undertuned):
- CCP generation
- Slann not doing much besides looking pretty and generating CCP
- Skink heroes not doing much besides looking pretty and doing the 1 spell/ritual per turn
- Skinks cohorts being utterly useless besides being cannonfodder. Admittadly they're great cannonfodder, but it'd be nice if they'd be more than bodies to be chopped up.
- EoTG effects being a mess without clear focus

And that's all really. The rest is mostly a matter of things being undertuned, but the basic concepts behind them are fine.
 
ILKAIN said:
I think we need a new rule. any complaint that is basically just outdated statline or power creep should be refrained from. the book is 5 years old. we all know this lol
Click to expand...
that would account for prity much everything all our problems are down to power creep and not having things others have. nothing we have is useless just very old
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top