Superhero versus series... choose the winners!

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The bigger issue at play is that Dr. Strange can, through his connection to the universe Astral Project from anywhere. He doesn't need to be on the same plane of existence. And his projection can use magic, one of Superman's weaknesses. Since Dr. Strange can fight without being present, create time loops, cast beings into other dimensions, and obviously has great command of one of Superman's biggest weaknesses, I give the fight to Dr. Strange.

Spoiler: Endgame

Let's use Endgame as an example. Doctor Strange was just one cog in the collection of superheros it took to finally defeat Thanos' forces. Superman would have been able to single handily taken them all. Look at how powerful Captain Marvel vomit was and Superman is significantly more powerful than her. If Superman were in the MCU, we never would have had the need for Endgame because he would have been able to defeat Thanos during Infinity War

Another key aspect of this discussion is what sources we are willing to incorporate. Are we sticking with movies/shows? Main sequence comics? Smaller runs of comics?


You don't want me to break out Superman One Million / Prime

 

[LizardWizard]

Spoiler: Endgame

Let's use Endgame as an example. Doctor Strange was just one cog in the collection of superheros it took to finally defeat Thanos' forces. Superman would have been able to single handily taken them all. Look at how powerful Captain Marvel vomit was and Superman is significantly more powerful than her. If Superman were in the MCU, we never would have had the need for Endgame because he would have been able to defeat Thanos during Infinity War

Another key aspect of this discussion is what sources we are willing to incorporate. Are we sticking with movies/shows? Main sequence comics? Smaller runs of comics?


You don't want me to break out Superman One Million / Prime

I see your point with Endgame. But I think there are arguments to be made about bad internal validity with the movie as a whole.

Spoiler: End Game Spoiler

However, even the MCU is inconsistent with their own franchise assets abilities. Dr. Strange time loops a god into submission in his origin movie, but spends an entire fight holding back a river in Endgame. He obviously has the ability to block the river without actually having to be permanently present to do so. What a character is shown to be capable of shouldn't be limited by what they have been shown to do in order to create narrative space for other characters.

So the question really comes down to which iteration of the character are we looking at. What are the circumstances of the fight. And what are the conditions of victory. Dr. Strange can both astral project and use magic in all of his iterations. Superman in Superman Prime is essentially a god. I am sure there are plenty of ways he could disregard magic after spending 15000 years at a suns core. That is the only iteration that I think would win against the run of the mill Dr. Strange. Also, with 15000 years I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Strange could over come him then.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I think I'll go with Superman, I do however think both has a decent chance of defeating the other, and it'll partly come down to who takes the first shot and goes for the kill; Superman is probably the least likely to do that of the two, so that gives him some advantage over Superman, still even magic users like Shazam who even somewhat (as I understand it) rival superman's powers and uses magic often loses, which should say something about just how powerful Superman; This means that Strange might not do enough first off all the time, giving Superman the edge back.

For all those "Batman wins", Superman wasn't trying to actually kill Batman.

True, but Batman isn't either usually. I'd still argue Batman wins since he pretty much always has the one thing that is better at beating Superman than magic, that being Kryptonite.

 

[Aginor]

True, but Batman isn't either usually. I'd still argue Batman wins since he pretty much always has the one thing that is better at beating Superman than magic, that being Kryptonite.

But wouldn't that only work if Superman is incredibly dumb?
I mean: Superman could literally just get a rock and throw it at Batman from a safe distance. And he could do that with such speed that Batman could never dodge it.
I don't know if Batman has anything that can counter an orbital strike, and Superman could do such a thing with ease.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

So the question really comes down to which iteration of the character are we looking at. What are the circumstances of the fight. And what are the conditions of victory. Dr. Strange can both astral project and use magic in all of his iterations. Superman in Superman Prime is essentially a god. I am sure there are plenty of ways he could disregard magic after spending 15000 years at a suns core. That is the only iteration that I think would win against the run of the mill Dr. Strange. Also, with 15000 years I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Strange could over come him then.

Even with their "main" power set, magic is not an instant win against Superman. He does have some vulnerability to it, but can fight his way out of it.

As I said before, Superman's near lightspeed movement is realistically unbeatable. Doctor Strange couldn't even move a fraction of a millimeter to use his magic before Superman had the opportunity to kill him many times over. Also with that speed comes super natural levels of reflexes and thinking (otherwise super speed couldn't be utilized at all). Obviously movies/shows have to down play this otherwise it would be an instant win every time. However, how do you beat someone who can move at near the speed of light, react to things at those velocities and process information at such a rate? Imagine how much information Superman could take in within a single second and how much ground he could cover.

Batman wins since he pretty much always has the one thing that is better at beating Superman than magic, that being Kryptonite.

Yes Kryptonite works... but Batman is only human, so everything works against him. Superman could kill him with a pebble. For story purposes it is fun watching Batman fight with Superman, but realistically (if such powers were real) Batman would have no chance. Batman can kill Superman with Kryptonite, but Superman can kill Batman with everything.

I mean: Superman could literally just get a rock and throw it at Batman from a safe distance. And he could do that with such speed that Batman could never dodge it.
I don't know if Batman has anything that can counter an orbital strike, and Superman could do such a thing with ease.

You beat me to the punch. The was the exact example I was going to use!

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

But wouldn't that only work if Superman is incredibly dumb?
I mean: Superman could literally just get a rock and throw it at Batman from a safe distance. And he could do that with such speed that Batman could never dodge it.
I don't know if Batman has anything that can counter an orbital strike, and Superman could do such a thing with ease.

Considering his powers and speed I think it could be argued that he is quite dumb,he barely ever uses his super speed to think things through he always just uses his fists it seems, and while that is true for a lot of superheroes, Superman rarely seems to go in with any sort of plan because he never really needs to and I'm not certain he is any good at it.

Yes Kryptonite works... but Batman is only human, so everything works against him. Superman could kill him with a pebble. For story purposes it is fun watching Batman fight with Superman, but realistically (if such powers were real) Batman would have no chance. Batman can kill Superman with Kryptonite, but Superman can kill Batman with everything.

I have no doubt that Superman can beat Batman and Superman has the advantage, still from all I've seen Superman is not good with tactics and Batman has resources that make him more than capable of fighting him, it partly depends on how many of those resources he is allowed to use.
Certainly in a fight between the two where it's life or death and none of them holds anything back and they both have their standard equipment, Batman would not have much of a chance and only a sliver of one with kryptonite.
Also the venom stuff is a thing in the DC universe so who is to say Batman doesn't have some kind of gadget that uses something similar to that or found some way to use the speed force, if anyone was to do something like that with tech, Batman would be the one. Granted it's a lot of 'what if's', but that is somewhat what Batman is about.

 

[LizardWizard]

As I said before, Superman's near lightspeed movement is realistically unbeatable. Doctor Strange couldn't even move a fraction of a millimeter to use his magic before Superman had the opportunity to kill him many times over. Also with that speed comes super natural levels of reflexes and thinking (otherwise super speed couldn't be utilized at all). Obviously movies/shows have to down play this otherwise it would be an instant win every time. However, how do you beat someone who can move at near the speed of light, react to things at those velocities and process information at such a rate? Imagine how much information Superman could take in within a single second and how much ground he could cover.

My point is merely that Dr. Strange, can with some ease, be literally, inaccessible to Superman. And from those planes he can still wield his magic in the plane that Superman is present in. So Dr. Strange is able to engage while being entirely removed from the theater of Superman. With the Eye of Agamatto Dr. Strange wouldn't have to react at normal reflexes. He can react in advance.

I think Superman is very capable of defeating foes that Dr. Strange can not. There are also beings far less powerful than Superman who can access the various planes of existence which superman can not, or has not been shown to.

In terms of relative power Superman is the clear winner. In terms of hero vs hero match up I think Dr. Strange being able to fight while being removed from harm and having the ability to manipulate time gives him the win more often than not.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think it could be argued that he is quite dumb,he barely ever uses his super speed to think things through

Actually he possesses super level genius intellect. If they made Superman fully utilize his powers there would be no story. That's the problem with him being so overpowered.

but that is somewhat what Batman is about.

Batman's greatest power is plot armor. Because "I'm Batman!"

My point is merely that Dr. Strange, can with some ease, be literally, inaccessible to Superman. And from those planes he can still wield his magic in the plane that Superman is present in. So Dr. Strange is able to engage while being entirely removed from the theater of Superman.

You can only play hide and go seek for so long. Superman does actually have access to other dimensions (i.e. the Phantom Zone), he may not access it in the same way as strange (science vs. magic) but it is not completely foreign to him. I simply can't picture Strange's projections having a realistic chance of killing Superman. As a result it is only a matter of time before Superman finds him.

With the Eye of Agamatto Dr. Strange wouldn't have to react at normal reflexes. He can react in advance.

Time travel creates a rather silly argument. Both have been shown to manipulate time. The fact that Superman can fly faster than the speed of light would further complicate this.

I think Superman is very capable of defeating foes that Dr. Strange can not.

This is true...

Ebony Maw handed Strange his ass pretty easily in Infinity War. Superman could have ended him in less than a second.

Also, with 15000 years I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Strange could over come him then.

Is Doctor Strange immortal (or extremely long lived)?

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Actually he possesses super level genius intellect. If they made Superman fully utilize his powers there would be no story. That's the problem with him being so overpowered.

Well the genius level intellect is kind of part of the standard superhero survival kit, and I know they say he has super intelligence but I've never seen any proof of it.

Batman's greatest power is plot armor. Because "I'm Batman!"

Yup, but that does allow him to have a chance against anyone. Also 'Because I'm Batman' is enough reason for me, though I'll admit I'm heavily biased

 

[LizardWizard]

You can only play hide and go seek for so long. Superman does actually have access to other dimensions (i.e. the Phantom Zone), he may not access it in the same way as strange (science vs. magic) but it is not completely foreign to him. I simply can't picture Strange's projections having a realistic chance of killing Superman. As a result it is only a matter of time before Superman finds him.

The phantom zone is only one other plane though. Dr. Strange has access to a myriad of them. And his astral projection is able to arrive in them, and wield magic. Also, in almost all comics Superman cannon he can not exceed the speed of light. Point in case he looses the foot race to the Flash. Who can move at near speed of light. At least at the time of the race. At a later point Barry Alan went above the speed of light but was nearly consumed by the Speed Force. At anyrate, sure Superman Prime could beat Dr. Strange. However, the run of the mil Dr. Strange would be able to defeat most of Superman's iterations.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The phantom zone is only one other plane though.

If you can access one, you can very likely access others. You might have to make a few tweaks to your technology but it is not beyond your means.

However, the run of the mil Dr. Strange would be able to defeat most of Superman's iterations.

I guess we'll have to disagree. Superman is consistently put forth as an example of an overpowered character. Other characters from other story universes are constantly compared to him. I just don't see that sort of thing happening with Doctor Strange (some of which is admittedly due to popularity, but even with the rise of the MCU, we still don't see it... at all). When I imagine placing Superman in Infinity War or Endgame, I see him as being virtually unstoppable. Situations that give Doctor Strange problems would pose none for the man of steel.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

If you can access one, you can very likely access others. You might have to make a few tweaks to your technology but it is not beyond your means.

I don't think Superman knows how to do that,

 

[Kilvakar]

Yeah, Superman wins this 9 times out of 10. I think the only thing that gives Doctor Strange an advantage would be if he had the foreknowledge and time to prepare. As people have been saying, Superman is just too OP and in a straight up fight would always win. If Doctor Strange knew he was coming and had time to set up, he would have a *small* chance. But in most situations, Superman takes the win.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I don't think Superman knows how to do that,

I disagree, I've seen him work with kryptonian technology many times before.

 

[LizardWizard]

If you can access one, you can very likely access others. You might have to make a few tweaks to your technology but it is not beyond your means.

There is a bad argument. That is like saying if you can see one color spectrum then you can probably see them all.

 

[LizardWizard]

Side note, I decided to ask on of the most knowledge comic book collectors I know. He absolute loves Superman. He has talked to me for hours straight about Superman for All Seasons, The Death of Superman, and Kingdom come. He takes personally when people bad mouth the Superman comics because they were integral to his ability to survive his childhood.

So yesterday when I when were on a short road trip to an AoS tournament I brought up the thread and asked who would win, Dr. Strange vs Superman. He didn't even think about it. He said Dr. Strange, and then went back to the previous topic.

I know this is purely anecdotal.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

There is a bad argument. That is like saying if you can see one color spectrum then you can probably see them all.

Hardly. He has the means to access other dimensions; they are not completely foreign and untouchable to him. While he might not be able to access all dimensions right from the onset, he does have the technology to take on that challenge. Of course there are built-in assumptions, just like you are assuming that because Superman has shown some level of vulnerability to magic, he might be vulnerable to Strange's magic. No guarantees on either front.

 

[LizardWizard]

Situations that give Doctor Strange problems would pose none for the man of steel.

I agree with this. Yep, Superman could have solved End game pretty quickly. Or even infinity war. He would probably even be able to defeat Captain Marvel in most situations. But the question isn't which super hero is the most powerful. It was who would win in a fight. Superman isn't immune to magic. It is one of the very few things that can harm him. So yeah, Dr. Strange should be able to defeat him for all the previously mentioned reasons. Command over the physical universal does little in a fight against someone who can turn the fight incorporeal.

 

[LizardWizard]

Hardly. He has the means to access other dimensions; they are not completely foreign and untouchable to him. While he might not be able to access all dimensions right from the onset, he does have the technology to take on that challenge. Of course there are built-in assumptions, just like you are assuming that because Superman has shown some level of vulnerability to magic, he might be vulnerable to Strange's magic. No guarantees on either front.

Right, and because Dr. Strange has been shown to be vulnerable to punches there is no grantee that he is vulnerable to Supermans?

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I disagree, I've seen him work with kryptonian technology many times before.

Fair enough,but i'd imagine a lot of that is made quite intuitive and sometimes, at least in the Superman movie, if I recall correctly, he didn't have to do anything but touch something and then it worked, so he likely didn't have to know how it actually worked.
To which extend has he worked with kryptonian technology, I'm curious because I haven't seen it so you could be correct?