AoS NEW *rumor*

[Killer Angel]

I guess my point is that Saurus didn't exactly fight well in fantasy. You didn't bring a block of Saurus warriors and think to yourself "i'm gonna push this into something and it'll mess them up."

They didn't outfight literally any unit that was actually intended to kill something, so they were functionally cannon fodder, just like they are now.

In a 1 to 1 fight against other core choices, sure. But "they stack up well against other core choices" was never really the argument. It was that "saurus are elite infantry," which they distinctly are not. They had so much more in common with the men at arms and skeletons of the world than the chaos warriors.

IMO for a unit to be an "elite infantry like chaos warriors" they need to even be somewhere in the same league as Chaos Warriors, and saurus just are not. And it's not because Chaos Warriors were OP, its because Saurus warriors were trash. They are arguably better now than they have ever been.

Once, and just once, i killed with my saurus warriors a unit of Chaos warriors.
Stars aligned, of course… i was using a Slann with Lore of beasts, and i successfully buffed the unit with wyssan's wildform, while using curse of Anraheir AND Iceshard blzzard (from a skink priest) on the CW, with me succeeding in all casting and my opponent failing in all dispel attempts.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I guess my point is that Saurus didn't exactly fight well in fantasy. You didn't bring a block of Saurus warriors and think to yourself "i'm gonna push this into something and it'll mess them up."

They didn't outfight literally any unit that was actually intended to kill something, so they were functionally cannon fodder, just like they are now.

In a 1 to 1 fight against other core choices, sure. But "they stack up well against other core choices" was never really the argument. It was that "saurus are elite infantry," which they distinctly are not. They had so much more in common with the men at arms and skeletons of the world than the chaos warriors.

IMO for a unit to be an "elite infantry like chaos warriors" they need to even be somewhere in the same league as Chaos Warriors, and saurus just are not. And it's not because Chaos Warriors were OP, its because Saurus warriors were trash. They are arguably better now than they have ever been.

There is an old thread where 8th Edition Saurus Warriors are deeply examined. @protector demonstrates that Saurus Warriors actually preform quite well. They are not as elite as Chaos Warriors, but they are still elite troops.

His first post in the thread can be found here (and he has many more posts in the subsequent pages of the thread) : http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/saurus-warriors-the-tactica.16186/#post-127163

 

[Putzfrau]

There is an old thread where 8th Edition Saurus Warriors are deeply examined. @protector demonstrates that Saurus Warriors actually preform quite well. They are not as elite as Chaos Warriors, but they are still elite troops.

His first post in the thread can be found here (and he has many more posts in the subsequent pages of the thread) : http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/saurus-warriors-the-tactica.16186/#post-127163

I actually remember that post and believe i argued the same point i have now, then.

Maybe im just bitter haha


Edit: looks like i didn't get into the mix on that one. I remember all the math, and ill still die on the sword that if saurus were really that good in practice, SOMEONE would have gotten some good use out of them.

I mean jack armstrong, arguably the strongest fantasy and AoS player, played lizardmen for ages and explored saurus lists, and never placed with them.

I dunno, its certainly more nuanced then i implied, but in practice saurus seemed to always be abysmal. I tried to run them in 8th, and i'm currently running a 90 saurus strong fangs list (and absolutely loving it) so maybe i just suck! haha

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Edit: looks like i didn't get into the mix on that one. I remember all the math, and ill still die on the sword that if saurus were really that good in practice, SOMEONE would have gotten some good use out of them.

I mean jack armstrong, arguably the strongest fantasy and AoS player, played lizardmen for ages and explored saurus lists, and never placed with them.

I could also be the case that it wasn't that Saurus were bad, but instead maybe, Skinks were REALLY good and a superior choice. @protector 's analysis was quite interesting as he set Saurus up against units that I thought would destroy them, but the Saurus seemed to continually come out on top.

 

[Putzfrau]

I could also be the case that it wasn't that Saurus were bad, but instead maybe, Skinks were REALLY good and a superior choice. @protector 's analysis was quite interesting as he set Saurus up against units that I thought would destroy them, but the Saurus seemed to continually come out on top.

Could have very well been the case.

I think movement 4 probably had a lot to do with it, and so much of fantasy revolved around getting off the right kind of charges that maybe the straight "this block against this block" math isn't as helpful.

Either way, i always love seeing the math.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think movement 4 probably had a lot to do with it, and so much of fantasy revolved around getting off the right kind of charges that maybe the straight "this block against this block" math isn't as helpful.

To a point, although I think 8th edition changed a lot of that. Striking at initiative order, steadfast, horde extra rank attacks and the step up rule all worked to make infantry much more viable. In 7th edition, I'd fully agree with you, but in 8th, infantry definitely had their place. Sometimes it even went overboard with full on uber death star infantry units (which some people really hated, although I always felt they could be countered).

 

[Putzfrau]

To a point, although I think 8th edition changed a lot of that. Striking at initiative order, steadfast, horde extra rank attacks and the step up rule all worked to make infantry much more viable. In 7th edition, I'd fully agree with you, but in 8th, infantry definitely had their place. Sometimes it even went overboard with full on uber death star infantry units (which some people really hated, although I always felt they could be countered).

Very true. I never really minded the death stars either, but that just might be the nostalgia talking

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Very true. I never really minded the death stars either, but that just might be the nostalgia talking

Not nostalgia... glory. The glory of 8th edition WFB!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

In a 1 to 1 fight against other core choices, sure. But "they stack up well against other core choices" was never really the argument. It was that "saurus are elite infantry," which they distinctly are not. They had so much more in common with the men at arms and skeletons of the world than the chaos warriors. And it's not because Chaos Warriors were OP, its because Saurus warriors were trash.

They do not have more in common with Skeletons and Men-at-arms. They have Strength and Toughness 4, 2 Attacks each, a 4+ Armour Save and an above-average Leadership, whereas the units you refer to have Strength and Toughness 3 base, a single attack and mediocre Leadership (Skeletons are Unbreakable but they’re still far weaker than Saurus). And they certainly are not rubbish. Being able to outfight most other Core choices is most definitely useful for breaking the heart of your opponent’s army.

In terms of the argument that they are supposed to be elite troops, perhaps that’s because they were distinctly designed to fit in the Core slot, with obvious strengths and weaknesses?

Chaos Warriors on the other hand, the way they are now in 7th and 8th, are designed much more like a Special unit than a Core unit, and when your army list has a Special unit as a Core choice something’s wrong with the list. Whoever got their paws on the responsiblilty for writing the Warriors of Chaos army books for 7th and 8th really did a Bruce Quarrie move (I’m pretty sure it was Phil Kelly, who’s made quite a few other armies overpowered in his time).

They are arguably better now than they have ever been.

Did you even read the post I made earlier? AoS Saurus are clearly NOT better than Fantasy Saurus, because of the reason I mentioned above. They get massacred by most Core choices in AoS, whereas in Fantasy they defeat most Core choices. That is clearly not getting better.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

And I remain surprised by the way everyone keeps glorifying Skink lists in Fantasy. In my view Skinks are pretty awful, being worse than Night Goblins in close combat (which is saying something) and having inferior missile weapons. They can be outshot by most missile units, and walked over in close combat by pretty much anything better than Gnoblars. Their only strengths are that they can take Kroxigors (where they act pretty much as a meatshield for them, but I’m talking about Skinks on their own here), Poisoned Attacks (which only work on 6s and aren’t much use against the heavily armoured Chaos Warrior deathstars that plague 8th Edition battlefields) and that they can take the Skirmish Special Rule (which does very little to outweigh the terrible range of their weapons).

 

[ILKAIN]

No disrespect Lustrians, but this conversation is totally off the new rumors and discussion topic. and has taken up several pages....

 

[Killer Angel]

No disrespect Lustrians, but this conversation is totally off the new rumors and discussion topic. and has taken up several pages....

well, we could discuss about the new rumor engine (orkish bombs?), or about the new Sisters models...

 

[Aginor]

I tend to think that those are Ork bombs for 40k.
They don't look like Kharadron or something like that to me. I might be wrong though.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

well, we could discuss about the new rumor engine (orkish bombs?)

Good idea!

To me those bombs look too well-made to be Orky, and too lacking in runes and ancestor faces to be Kharadron.

My guess is that it's going to be some sort of Space Marine bomber for Aeronautica Imperialis, as the Imperial releases in Wave 1 are for Imperial Guard

 

[ChapterAquila92]

My guess is that it's going to be some sort of Space Marine bomber for Aeronautica Imperialis, as the Imperial releases in Wave 1 are for Imperial Navy

FIFY. Outside of the Phantine Air Corps from the Gaunt's Ghosts series, fightercraft and bombers are not under the nominal command of the Imperial Guard.

I can't really think of any Space Marine aircraft that are dedicated bombers however. At best, these look like cluster bombs for wing hardpoints, or a revolver-like drum for some automated mortar system.

 

[Seraphandy]

FIFY. Outside of the Phantine Air Corps from the Gaunt's Ghosts series, fightercraft and bombers are not under the nominal command of the Imperial Guard.

I can't really think of any Space Marine aircraft that are dedicated bombers however. At best, these look like cluster bombs for wing hardpoints, or a revolver-like drum for some automated mortar system.

I'm with you reference the revolver like drum for a ground based weapon system. I think the picture has been rotated 90 degrees to the model.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

FIFY. Outside of the Phantine Air Corps from the Gaunt's Ghosts series, fightercraft and bombers are not under the nominal command of the Imperial Guard.

Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, they’re pretty much the same in that they are served by humans rather than Space Marines, and this is the difference I was trying to get at (I’m a Tyranid, Necron and Ork player so I care little for the Imperium )

I can't really think of any Space Marine aircraft that are dedicated bombers however.

Don’t worry, GW will think of one for Aeronautica Imperialis - everyone here knows what they’re like for giving Space Marines everything

 

[ILKAIN]

Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, they’re pretty much the same in that they are served by humans rather than Space Marines, and this is the difference I was trying to get at (I’m a Tyranid, Necron and Ork player so I care little for the Imperium )



Don’t worry, GW will think of one for Aeronautica Imperialis - everyone here knows what they’re like for giving Space Marines everything

NIDS NIDS NIDS!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

And I remain surprised by the way everyone keeps glorifying Skink lists in Fantasy.

I am surprised that you are surprised. I suspect you were probably using them incorrectly. The fact that most players acknowledge how good skinks are should tell you something.

Also, when I'm referring to skinks, I am specifically referring to Skink skirmishers. Those little guys were worth their weight in gold when used for their intended purposes (harassment, redirection, targeting high toughness + low armor, etc.)

In my view Skinks are pretty awful, being worse than Night Goblins in close combat (which is saying something) and having inferior missile weapons.

Skinks are not close combat specialists. That is not were they excel. Additionally, the fact that they are quite quick and have a -1 to hit modifier for incoming shooting attacks, means that they can do well against the missile troops of other armies. It does take a bit of positioning and battlefield awareness though. Not to say that there aren't counters against them (i.e. something like TK's Arrows of Asaph).

Their only strengths are that they can take Kroxigors (where they act pretty much as a meatshield for them, but I’m talking about Skinks on their own here),

Skrox units were never highly praised or utilized. It is Skink Skirmishers that stole the show.

Poisoned Attacks (which only work on 6s and aren’t much use against the heavily armoured Chaos Warrior deathstars that plague 8th Edition battlefields)

First, Chaos Warriors are not the ideal targets for poisoned shooting. Armor is the weakness of poisoned attacks at low strength. Poison is better aimed at high toughness + lowly armor untis.

Second, you seem fixated on Chaos Warrior deathstars. I play the army, and I can assure you that the more significant danger comes from the Daemon Prince, Hortennse Lord, Chimera and Skullcrushers. Chaos Warrior deathstars can work, but other armies can field similar units to contend with them (Savage Orc Big'uns for example).

and that they can take the Skirmish Special Rule (which does very little to outweigh the terrible range of their weapons).

Sure it does. You can literally march and shoot, which gives you an effective range of 24".

 

[Killer Angel]

Now, this is what i call an ugly miniature…