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Monthly Movie Club Joker 2019

Scalenex
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Scalenex

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Okay, my previous attempts to have a movie discussion haven't worked great. This movie is historic.


I don't know if it's going to imprint itself on the cultural narrative for everyone but I believe aspiring actors will study Joaquin Phoenix's performance for decades to come. Cinematography students will study the camera work. Politics and film classes will pick this apart.

I'm still processing how I feel about the movies, but I finally got something I asked for. It doesn't follow a set formula. This movie is different.
 
I enjoyed the movie. It was definitely a unique and different approach to take with a comic book character. It is deserving of the praise it is receiving. Although I really liked it, it is not a movie that I would want to watch over and over again.

I'll start the conversation with this...

Heath Ledger's Joker > Joaquin Phoenix's Joker
(and yes, I recognize that they are very different from one another... in very different contexts)
 
Probably won't see it in the cinema (because I rarely go there anyway and I am not very interested in DC comics stuff), BUT:
Joaquin Phoenix is a great actor IMO. I remember being very impressed about how he played Johnny Cash in "Walk the Line" and I can imagine that the wide range of emotions he is able to show on his face makes him a pretty good Joker.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
Heath Ledger's Joker > Joaquin Phoenix's Joker
(and yes, I recognize that they are very different from one another... in very different contexts)
Click to expand...

I agree. But (I know you haven't said this personally Nightbringer) Joaquin Phoenix performance was so good that it puts to rest people who have the notion that the Joker should be retired with Heath Ledger. I look forward to seeing fresh and new interpretations of the Joker for years to come.

Mark Hamil's animated Joker > John Dimmaggio's animated Joker, but I still think Dimmaggio was great.

Aginor said:
and I can imagine that the wide range of emotions he is able to show on his face makes him a pretty good Joker.
Click to expand...

This/\. His ability to act with his face his amazing. Heath Ledger is better at talking but Phoenix is way better at emoting with his face. Also the directors of both Jokers knew how to play to their actors' strengths.

I don't know if anyone could cry and laugh simulatanously as well as Phoenix.
 
I plan and hope to see it.
(i hope because sometime movies miss my local theatre - see Alita)

NIGHTBRINGER said:
I'll start the conversation with this...

Heath Ledger's Joker > Joaquin Phoenix's Joker
Click to expand...

I could say that Ledger was perfect, so you can only have a tie.
But nothing stops an actor to have a different approach in the same role, thus ending with a great performance that focus on another interpretation of the same character.
 
Scalenex said:
But (I know you haven't said this personally Nightbringer) Joaquin Phoenix performance was so good that it puts to rest people who have the notion that the Joker should be retired with Heath Ledger. I look forward to seeing fresh and new interpretations of the Joker for years to come.
Click to expand...
I completely agree. There are plenty of great interpretations that can be displayed and I like the variation that actors & directors come up with.


So how do we feel about Joaquin Phoenix's Joker vs. Jack Nicholson's Joker? They are extremely different from one another and each fit perfectly well in their respective films, but which was the better or more memorable/impactful performance?

Leto's Joker comes in last.
 
I've not seen it yet but it is one I really do want to see, Joaquin Phoenix is a very under rated actor and his performances in Gladiator and The village come to mind and also 8mm although he had more of a side part in that.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
So how do we feel about Joaquin Phoenix's Joker vs. Jack Nicholson's Joker? They are extremely different from one another and each fit perfectly well in their respective films, but which was the better or more memorable/impactful performance?
Click to expand...

Hmmm. The issue is that Batman (1989) was the very first VHS I ever owned. I must have watched it at least six times at various ages. i doubt I'll ever watched Joker (2019) any more than twice. I really like Tim Burton. I even like mediocre Tim Burton movies. By a literal standard, Jack Nicholson is more memorable.

Because Joaquin Pheonix performance is so unique, I'm betting more future actors and directors will carefully reference Joker 2019 's playbook for years to come. Jack Nicholson's Joker not so much. Jack Nicholson as an actor will probably have an overall legacy that is bigger. Joker is one of the mid level iconic roles he played. As Good As It Gets (in my opinion one of the best romantic comedies of all time), A Few Good Men, and The Shining are a lot bigger plus a whole bunch of other stuff I haven't seen.

That said, I expect Joker to win many immitators, some good, some bad, for at least the next ten years.

Among other things, Jaoquin Phoenix was the protagonist. All other Jokers were supporting actors.

NIGHTBRINGER said:
Leto's Joker comes in last.
Click to expand...

I am not going to pay money to see Suicide Squad. Every critic I trust says this was a dumpster fire. If and when it ends up on a streaming service I already have i may watch it out of morbid curiosity. The entire movie was flawed. I'm not sure what percentage of the blame Jared Leto deserves. I mostly blame the director. Suicide Squad is an ensemble story and the Joker is not part of the enesemble. He is a supporting character for one member of the ensemble. He shouldn't have had more then ten minutes of screen time, even if he was played by a great actor.
 
Scalenex said:
Hmmm. The issue is that Batman (1989) was the very first VHS I ever owned. I must have watched it at least six times at various ages.
Click to expand...
Nostalgia is one hell of a drug. :D
The Tim Burton Batman movies are ones I very fondly remember and have watched multiple times, although they are pretty bad by any objective standard I guess.
 
Aginor said:
The Tim Burton Batman movies are ones I very fondly remember and have watched multiple times, although they are pretty bad by any objective standard I guess.
Click to expand...
I think the second one is bad, but the first one is a good movie. It has its flaws, like most movies, but it is pretty solid.
 
It looks like Joker 2019 is on pace to be the highest grossing R rated movie of all time.

It was on it's third or fourth week and it beat Maleficient 2, I'm not surprisjed M2 didn't do well but Disney spent a lot of money on it. Now they are really going to have to hope that Star Wars episode 9 exceeds expectations.

Back on topic, thinking of Joker 2019 and a remake of It, has there ever been a postive protrayal of a clown in the last forty years?

Maybe Ronald McDonald but he helped contribute to childhood obesity. I also noticed that McDonalds is using Ronald a lot less in their marketing than they did when I was a kid.
 
Scalenex said:
Back on topic, thinking of Joker 2019 and a remake of It, has there ever been a postive protrayal of a clown in the last forty years?
Click to expand...

I don't think there is anything.
Unless you want to count Patch Adams (I wouldn't)
 
Me neither.

Edit: wait, there is ONE. I think. In Modern Family one of the main characters (Cam) is a clown. He is a genuinely nice guy who loves clowning as a hobby.
But they do play with the "clowns are scary" trope several times.
 
This came up in passing during a conversation.

A movie like Joker can only come out with a small budget. Joker took a lot of risks, that's only allowed on a small budget movie because if someone makes a large budget movie a team of producers and focus groups are going to micromanage things. Large budget movie have these constraints.

-It's got to be woke to sell the script in Hollywood but it cannot be too woke, it might trigger a backlash.
-It's got to appeal to an international audience. That means Europe and China.
-It's got to have a well known and well liked actor or actress somewhere or you need to use a strong marketing machine to boost the profile of a relatively unknown actor or actress.
-It's got to have something to appeal to kids, but not too Jar-Jar so it doesn't bother adults.
-The plot cannot be too complicated
-Etc, etc

The net effect is that most big budget movies end up being mediocre. A movie that is mildly enjoyed by a wide swath of demographics is likely to make much more than a niche movie that is extremely enjoyed by a small demographic. Joker (2019) took off because it was so refreshingly different. Big buget movies are not allowed to to be refreshingly different.

A smaller contributor to Joker's success is probably that in a smaller budget flick, a skilled director and a skilled actor has more freedom to let their full talents shine.
 
I still need to see Joker. I couldn't convince anyone to see it with me, and I waited too long. I should have just gone solo. lol
 
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