8th Ed. Skinks can screen monsters from cannons. change my mind.

[Karnus]

As per the title.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

As per the title.

As per page 113 of the BRB



Since Skinks are not monstrous infantry/beasts/cavalry or a monster (and they are not obstacles), they have no effect of stopping a cannonball shot. As a result, if your monster is within the path of where the cannonball first lands and eventually comes to a rest, it is hit, regardless of any poor skinks that get in the way.

 

[Karnus]

As per page 113 of the BRB

View attachment 57995

Since Skinks are not monstrous infantry/beasts/cavalry or a monster (and they are not obstacles), they have no effect of stopping a cannonball shot. As a result, if your monster is within the path of where the cannonball first lands and eventually comes to a rest, it is hit, regardless of any poor skinks that get in the way.

Now I agree that skinks can’t take a cannonball. But what if the skinks are blocking line of sight to the spot the cannon crew are aiming for? I mean using TLOS rules means if they can’t see then they can’t shoot right? A cannon crew never actually aims directly at their target (unless they do and run the risk of overshooting) and I can’t find anything in the rules to suggest otherwise

 

[Warden]

Now I agree that skinks can’t take a cannonball. But what if the skinks are blocking line of sight to the spot the cannon crew are aiming for? I mean using TLOS rules means if they can’t see then they can’t shoot right? A cannon crew never actually aims directly at their target (unless they do and run the risk of overshooting) and I can’t find anything in the rules to suggest otherwise

Can't speak directly for 8th ed, but the previous two editions large monsters were also large targets?

There were three category of miniature sizes: small (like swarms) that could not block line of sight for medium creatures (like regular human-sized infantry; ogre sized models were also in this category) which in turn could not block line of sight for monstrous creatures (like dragons, stegadons/carnosaurs, giants, etc). You could only block line of sight for creatures in the same or smaller category, not bigger.

It doesn't make much sense for a 4 foot tall skink to be able to block an archer some distance away from firing his bow (or an artillery crew from firing a cannonball) at a 40-foot-tall stegadon.

Now if there was a bit of terrain in the way (say, a house or castle wall, or maybe something natural like a hill) then that should block line of sight.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

But what if the skinks are blocking line of sight to the spot the cannon crew are aiming for? I mean using TLOS rules means if they can’t see then they can’t shoot right?

You're right, although in an actual game it will be very difficult to block true line of sight with skinks. With true line of sight it is pretty difficult to obscure a target with models. Remember that the cannon can choose a skink it can see as its target and then bounce through to its intended target. I suppose if you had and extremely deep unit of cohort skinks that were angled just right, you might be able to obscure the ideal point of impact. Of course, if the cannon is elevated even a bit it will be easy to see right over the skinks.

All in all, I just don't see it as a viable option in an actual game. Theoretically possible... yes, but practical/useful... I'd say no.

 

[Karnus]

Can't speak directly for 8th ed, but the previous two editions large monsters were also large targets?

There were three category of miniature sizes: small (like swarms) that could not block line of sight for medium creatures (like regular human-sized infantry; ogre sized models were also in this category) which in turn could not block line of sight for monstrous creatures (like dragons, stegadons/carnosaurs, giants, etc). You could only block line of sight for creatures in the same or smaller category, not bigger.

It doesn't make much sense for a 4 foot tall skink to be able to block an archer some distance away from firing his bow (or an artillery crew from firing a cannonball) at a 40-foot-tall stegadon.

Now if there was a bit of terrain in the way (say, a house or castle wall, or maybe something natural like a hill) then that should block line of sight.

That’s just it, when you fire a cannon you don’t actually aim it at the monster. You aim it at a spot on the ground. Large target doesn’t come into it as the monster isn’t your target.

You're right, although in an actual game it will be very difficult to block true line of sight with skinks. With true line of sight it is pretty difficult to obscure a target with models. Remember that the cannon can choose a skink it can see as its target and then bounce through to its intended target. I suppose if you had and extremely deep unit of cohort skinks that were angled just right, you might be able to obscure the ideal point of impact. Of course, if the cannon is elevated even a bit it will be easy to see right over the skinks.

All in all, I just don't see it as a viable option in an actual game. Theoretically possible... yes, but practical/useful... I'd say no.

Hmmmm, so for example:

C


SSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSS




X

^
|
|
10”
|
v

M

C = cannon
S = skinks
X = spot the cannon is aiming for
M = monster

Surely as long as C and X are on the same level, the cannon can be blocked reliably from anywhere on the battlefield in this way? As long as the skinks are more than 10” away from the monster and between the monster and the cannon? Would you be happy to allow your opponent to shoot through the skinks without penalty?

 

[Warden]

That’s just it, when you fire a cannon you don’t actually aim it at the monster. You aim it at a spot on the ground. Large target doesn’t come into it as the monster isn’t your target.



Hmmmm, so for example:

C


SSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSS




X

^
|
|
10”
|
v

M

C = cannon
S = skinks
X = spot the cannon is aiming for
M = monster

Surely as long as C and X are on the same level, the cannon can be blocked reliably from anywhere on the battlefield in this way? As long as the skinks are more than 10” away from the monster and between the monster and the cannon? Would you be happy to allow your opponent to shoot through the skinks without penalty?

While per the rules mechanics it appears you are aiming at a spot on the ground, I am pretty sure the intent remains the same; i.e. the cannon crew is still attempting to shoot down the big beastie (the target) and not the distraction (the skirmishers up front). Due to the size difference between basic infantry and a large target, regardless of the distance between them that monster is still one big honking creature.

I am probably not the best person to ask, in most weird cases like this as long as me and my opponent (who 95% of the time was my brother) we would just do what made most sense.

I would say cannon crews go ahead and shoot at the big monster rolling up in the rear, OR fill the cannon with grapeshot to clear out all the skirmishers up front (that still a rule too? It used to be cannons had two types of ammo I think).

Or better plan, the cannon's general needs to deploy his cannon on top a hill in order to really take advantage of the artillery piece.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That’s just it, when you fire a cannon you don’t actually aim it at the monster. You aim it at a spot on the ground. Large target doesn’t come into it as the monster isn’t your target.

Keep in mind that you don't have to aim at a spot on the ground, you do so because the cannonball overshoots...

Hmmmm, so for example:

C


SSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSS




X

^
|
|
10”
|
v

M

C = cannon
S = skinks
X = spot the cannon is aiming for
M = monster

Surely as long as C and X are on the same level, the cannon can be blocked reliably from anywhere on the battlefield in this way? As long as the skinks are more than 10” away from the monster and between the monster and the cannon? Would you be happy to allow your opponent to shoot through the skinks without penalty?

The problem lies with true line of sight. If you can take a laser pointer (placed at the cannon's muzzle) and shine it through the unit of skinks at the spot you wish to aim, then you are permitted to do so. BS skill shooting would suffer a to hit modifier when doing so, but the cannon would not. As I said earlier, it is theoretically possible, but it will seldom work out in an actual game setting.

 

[Karnus]

While per the rules mechanics it appears you are aiming at a spot on the ground, I am pretty sure the intent remains the same; i.e. the cannon crew is still attempting to shoot down the big beastie (the target) and not the distraction (the skirmishers up front). Due to the size difference between basic infantry and a large target, regardless of the distance between them that monster is still one big honking creature.

I am probably not the best person to ask, in most weird cases like this as long as me and my opponent (who 95% of the time was my brother) we would just do what made most sense.

I would say cannon crews go ahead and shoot at the big monster rolling up in the rear, OR fill the cannon with grapeshot to clear out all the skirmishers up front (that still a rule too? It used to be cannons had two types of ammo I think).

Or better plan, the cannon's general needs to deploy his cannon on top a hill in order to really take advantage of the artillery piece.

I don’t deploy hill terrain in deployment zones for this reason, normally just out of the deployment zone to encourage the risk/reward of moving the artillery piece. I have no issue with the cannon loading grapeshot to clear the enemy unit blocking LOS, that makes sense and is a sensible way of dealing with the problem. I would argue if you are talking about what makes sense - it doesn’t make sense to be able to shoot a cannonball through a unit unscathed.

Keep in mind that you don't have to aim at a spot on the ground, you do so because the cannonball overshoots...

View attachment 58048


The problem lies with true line of sight. If you can take a laser pointer (placed at the cannon's muzzle) and shine it through the unit of skinks at the spot you wish to aim, then you are permitted to do so. BS skill shooting would suffer a to hit modifier when doing so, but the cannon would not. As I said earlier, it is theoretically possible, but it will seldom work out in an actual game setting.

I have no problems with the cannon crew aiming at the monster directly at all. If the cannon crew roll anything other than a 2 or a hit than they will miss their target - this seems fair to me and adds a layer of risk to cannons who are otherwise guaranteed to hit whatever they are aiming at. Misfires are all but pointless as there is always an engineer deployed with them.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I would argue if you are talking about what makes sense - it doesn’t make sense to be able to shoot a cannonball through a unit unscathed.

Personally I don't particularly like the way that cannons operate in 8th edition. However, in the context of this discussion, I'm just providing what I feel are the relevant rules of the game, whether or not I like them or not. I'm not aware of any rules that prevent a cannon from shooting through a screening unit if it can draw true line of sight to its intended target.

 

[Karnus]

I agree, as a Lizardmen player we have a lot of monsters in our arsenal, cannons just delete them. If I am playing against an empire player I generally see 2 cannons, 1 steam tank and 1 volley gun - for the points cost they are too effective.

I would say that the rules state that if you can’t see what you’re aiming at then you can’t fire at it. My opponent ALWAYS aims his cannons 10” from the back of the monsters base. So he isn’t now actually aiming at the monster at all, In this case he is aiming at the spot on the ground - which is the size of the cannon ball itself (so a few mm diameter?) - can easily be blocked by a skink or a Saurus warrior. If you can find a rule that states otherwise, I’ll concede

 

[Asterus]

All I'm gonna say is that if you're going to ask your opponent to aim a laser pointer between your skink's legs to get them to move the point they're aiming at a few millimeters, you better have a laser pointer on you.

 

[pendrake]

It doesn't make much sense for a 4 foot tall skink to be able to block an archer some distance away from firing his bow (or an artillery crew from firing a cannonball) at a 40-foot-tall stegadon.

Are stegadons really 40 feet tall?

Calculates

The chariot base is twenty feet long. Stegs are less than two chariot bases tall.

 

[airjamy]

RAW, certainly not, as others have proven quite clearly. Sounds like a good houserule though, it somewhat makes sense in the lore that screening should offer some protection against cannonfire. It is just annoying that it is an all or nothing type of deal, you can either see them or not, both do not really make sense.

 

[Warden]

Are stegadons really 40 feet tall?

Calculates

The chariot base is twenty feet long. Stegs are less than two chariot bases tall.

Good point, my lizard-math may have been in error...

Looking at this pic, a triceratops was what, 10 feet? 12 at most?

A truly massive stegadon probably wouldn't be more than 20 feet.

Still, stegadon > taller than a group of skinks.

Not sure what the size comparison would be out of TWW2?

 

[pendrake]

The illustrator that did this made the ceratopsian 3 metres tall. The squares are 1 meter each.

Scaled down to model scale each square would be about ~16mm.

Edit: It would be exactly 16.66667mm squares.

 

[Karnus]

I think a lot of people are missing the point a little bit. Sure, you can see a Stegadon over the top of some skinks. By my point is you can’t see the spot on the ground that you’re aiming for.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think a lot of people are missing the point a little bit. Sure, you can see a Stegadon over the top of some skinks. By my point is you can’t see the spot on the ground that you’re aiming for.

Agreed, the thread has spiraled off topic.

However the point remains that it is exceedingly difficult use skinks to block true line of sight to the point on the ground which the cannon is aiming for. It is possible, but it is pretty rare. True line of sight is tough to obstruct because it is often possible to see between models. If it was a reliable tactic to employ, it would already have been pretty wide spread by now.

 

[pendrake]

Agreed, the thread has spiraled off topic.

This is because eighth edition is all but gone (sadly) and its cannon rules are (tragically) too ridiculous to bother discussing.

I think a lot of people are missing the point a little bit. Sure, you can see a Stegadon over the top of some skinks. By my point is you can’t see the spot on the ground that you’re aiming for.

Real cannons don’t fire at points on the the ground. That has-had nothing whatsoever to do with the operation of cannons. Nothing.

My opponent ALWAYS aims his cannons 10” from the back of the monsters base. So he isn’t now actually aiming at the monster at all, In this case he is aiming at the spot on the ground - which is the size of the cannon ball itself (so a few mm diameter?)

Nevermind the Skinks. The Monster certainly blocks LOS to all points on the back edges of its base.

Did you mean the nearest edge(s)?

 

[Karnus]

This is because eighth edition is all but gone (sadly) and its cannon rules are too ridiculous to bother discussing.


Real cannons don’t fire at points on the the ground. That has-had nothing whatsoever to do with the operation of cannons. Nothing.


Nevermind the Skinks. The Monster certainly blocks LOS to all points on the back edges of its base.

Did you mean the nearest edge(s)?

Ahhh I see what you mean. Nah my opponent pre-measures 10” from the back of the base and whatever point on the table that happens to be is the point which his cannon is aiming for. Totally above board, I was just trying to think of a way to block the cannon from shooting at that point.

And yes I agree cannons don’t aim at spots on the ground but we have to work with the ruleset we are given right?

8th edition BRB says that in order to shoot at something you need to be able to draw an unobstructed line from the models eyes to the target. In the case of a cannon, from the muzzle to the target. Gotta be able to do something with that, maybe a razordon screen? Not only does it block LOS, but has a built in 5+ ward because of the randomisation between beast and handler.