Poll: Who should own the Falcon at the end of Episode 9?

[NIGHTBRINGER]

We don't exactly know how the Force works.
It could be possible that it can work intuitively up to a certain degree.

It can be intuitively used up to a certain degree. Where we disagree is where that level is. I don't feel it should be above that of a trained (even if not completely trained) practitioner who he himself comes from a strong force lineage.

I think we all agree that they have entertaining fights, but I do think that the OT/ST (lol sounds like an imperial walker) style can make great fights, too! The Luke vs Vader fights are certainly not boring, especially the one in Ep6.
What I like is that they look strenuous and intense, while some parts of the PT fights look like juggling.

The prequels of course have more fights to choose from, and all the flashy new technology stuff. There are lightsaber carrying dudes everywhere.
But then they have also some pretty weird/bad stuff.

An example is the one part of the Mustafar fight where Anakin and Obi-Wan just stand statically in front of each other, doing useless moulinettes. Just cringe-worthy.

If properly choreographed both can work well, and I do think that the fighting in Star Wars is generally pretty well choreographed. I have seen way worse stuff in movies, even in expensive ones.

I give the OT a pass because there were filming/technological limits at the time. They were great for their time and were highly boosted by the story and characters of the OT. But the house of mouse should be able to at least approximate what Lucas was able to portray with the PT... 20 years ago!! How does Episode VII or VIII even hope to compare with Obi-Wan + Qui-Gon Vs. Maul? Go over to my Star Wars vs. Star Trek thread and you'll see dozens of examples of YouTubers putting on better lightsaber fights than what we have seen in the ST.

The evil mouse won't stop until every single beloved franchise is dead.

Seriously, does Disney even have a PR department anymore?

I saw that. Definitely not good optics.

 

[Aginor]

you'll see dozens of examples of YouTubers putting on better lightsaber fights than what we have seen in the ST.

Well, I disagree there. Some of them are really good, no doubt, but I do like the (admittedly few) fights of the ST a lit, too.

 

[pendrake]

The evil mouse won't stop until every single beloved franchise is dead.

Seriously, does Disney even have a PR department anymore?

The thing I noticed is that the family had to ask “mother-may-I” to their local council before ordering a headstone.


Local government in the USA is not consulted about headstones.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well, I disagree there. Some of them are really good, no doubt, but I do like the (admittedly few) fights of the ST a lit, too.

You are of course free to believe what you will.

 

[ravagekitteh]

The evil mouse won't stop until every single beloved franchise is dead.

Seriously, does Disney even have a PR department anymore?

Ok, that’s pretty unforgivable. You’re supposed to be one of the ‘caring’ companies - you can do so much better than this pathetic nonsense

 

[Killer Angel]

Seriously, does Disney even have a PR department anymore?

They have. It's ran by Cruella de Vil.

 

[Scalenex]

They have. It's ran by Cruella de Vil.

Whoever made the tombstone joke is worse than Cruella de Ville.

It's sad but my opinion of those in power is so low that I'm okay with someone being evil OR stupid but leaders of government or industry are evil AND stupid I get mad.

At the very least, Cruella is getting a nice soft spotted coat.

Whoever shut down this grieving father's wish for his son's grave was cruel for no reason.

That's Joffrey evil.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The evil mouse won't stop until every single beloved franchise is dead.

Seriously, does Disney even have a PR department anymore?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well, I disagree there. Some of them are really good, no doubt, but I do like the (admittedly few) fights of the ST a lit, too.

 

[Aginor]

Fun fact: it was "Laserschwert" or "Lichtschwert" in German all along.

Also: wow that video is bad.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Also: wow that video is bad.

Bad in the sense that it completely annihilates any misconception that the throne room scene was actually a good "lightsaber fight"?

 

[Aginor]

Bad in the sense that it completely annihilates any misconception that the throne room scene was actually a good "lightsaber fight"?

No, bad in the sense that most points raised by the video are wrong. The author either doesn't know Star Wars well, or ignores everything that doesn't fit into his propaganda video.
The throne room fight does have its flaws, some of which he mentions. Same goes for the fights he seems to like, but he ignores those. He also seems to have problems with things that are perfectly fine, but which he just doesn't understand.

 

[Scalenex]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

No, bad in the sense that most points raised by the video are wrong. The author either doesn't know Star Wars well, or ignores everything that doesn't fit into his propaganda video.

Well let's take a closer look at this claim shall we.

Point #1 – It is called a Lightsaber not a laser sword.


Not sure how you can call his Star Wars knowledge into question here. Throughout the movies it is always referred to as a Lightsaber with the exception of the young Ani scene (which he acknowledged) and in TLJ. His point is valid that young Ani can be justified in calling it that, but the same is not true of Luke, since he has been referring to it as a lightsaber his whole life. I get that Rian Johnson was trying to be funny with it, and while TLJ reference does not particularly bother me, nor does objection against signify that the narrator is deficient in Star Wars knowledge.


Point #2 – The status of the lightsaber and how it was used

· In the OT the lightsaber is a mythical weapon – TRUE

· The emotional weight of the lightsaber fights in the OT is what carried them - TRUE

· The only non force user in the OT to use a lightsaber was Han and it was not in a combat scenario – TRUE

· In the PT we see the full extent of the lightsaber as highly skilled combatants / force users wielded them to devastating effect – TRUE

· The first time we see the lightsaber utilized in combat by a non force user is in the ST (at least in terms of the movies, some EU stuff might exist) – TRUE

· When Finn fights the Stormtrooper, it is awfully convenient that the stormtrooper has a weapon that can deflect a lightsaber – TRUE – Now while we have definitely seen such items in the past (Magna guards in the PT, Cortosis, etc.), it makes zero contextual sense in TLJ. There aren’t Jedi running around and that weapon would be a very poor choice against blaster wielding opposition that you would expect to encounter. As far as they (stormtroopers) know, the only guy who wields a lightsaber is their guy Kylo. So why bring it into the fight?

· Kylo vs. Finn lightsaber fight is rather silly – TRUE - I understand the counterarguments (Kylo is injured, not fully trained and at odds with himself after killing his father), but like the video says, drop in any trained force user in that same scenario and they defeat Finn with ease. Kylo should have no trouble at all with it and the fight should last no longer than a couple of seconds.


Point #3 – How a lightsaber works

Lightsabers cut through nearly everything with ease. For the most part, when they hit a person the damage is catastrophic. Severed limbs and heads are pretty much the norm. Admittedly we do see a few deviations from this, namely Luke’s glancing blow on Vader and Dooku’s strikes on Obi-Wan (which in the latter case deliberately and surgically placed by one of the greatest lightsaber wielders of all time). However, these are exceptions and most definitely not the norm. In the Disney films, the lightsabers rarely behave as they did previously. Too many instances of superficial damage. Once again this is all true, so again I am perplexed as to how you can call the guy’s Star Wars knowledge into question.


Point #4 – The OP Rey

We’ve had this discussion before and we’ll never agree. However, your stance is likely in the minority amongst well versed SW fans. So once again, the YouTuber’s SW knowledge is not in question.


Point #5 – Ultra Reylo fans are freaks

Look it up online. Enough said.


Point #6 – Rey has beaten both Luke and Kylo

She clearly has defeated Kylo, but one can make an argument against the YouTuber’s position that she beat Luke. While it is true, she came out on top, I personally feel that the movie does a good enough job at showing that Luke wasn’t really trying to win.


Point #7 – The throne room “lightsaber fight”

Supported in each case with video evidence, pretty hard to argue against. When broken down this way it looks pretty bad. Admittedly, many movie fight scenes breakdown to one degree or another when placed under this level of scrutiny. However, it does look pretty sloppy, especially from such a big budget film with today's knowledge and resources.


Point #8 – PT actors displayed far better skill and choreography

The PT actors were much better trained than the ST in terms of choreography and martial arts. The PT actors are clearly more proficient and it shows. Daisy Ridley vs. Ray Park anyone? Once again this is completely true!



So I'd really like to know how you justify your claim that the video presenter does not know Star Wars well.

 

[Aginor]

The author either doesn't know Star Wars well, or ignores everything that doesn't fit into his propaganda video.

The second one it is then.

Edit:
Ok you probably deserve a longer answer.

I don't have the time nor any joy in doing that right now though, so just a few short points:

1: Luke is using the term ironically.

2: Grievous isn't using the force, and IIRC there are several cases in the old EU where similar stuff happens.

3. As you say, there are other cases.
Luke cuts through several people on Jabba's barge, without cutting pieces off them. Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Luke vs Vader are cuts with the tip.

Superficial wounds with very sharp blades are common in combat.
In the majority of sword cuts the tip of the sword is used. It is absolutely the same with medieval swords. Most of them were sharp enough to cut through limbs, but the nature of combat is that many blows are almost avoided, so you cut with the very tip of the blade.
It also helps staying away far enough from your opponent.

Superficial wounds are also good for dramatic purposes, when you just don't want to outright have the victim killed/maimed, but still show the skill of the user.
That's what they did with Dooku, with Luke, and with Kylo.


4. Doesn't have anything to do with Disney understanding Lightsabers or not.

5. See #4

6. Of course Luke doesn't really try.

7. I absolutely agree that some parts are sloppy. And yes the choreography has some bad/cheesy elements to it. But the very same is true for other fights in Star Wars as well, even my favourite one (Darth Maul vs. The two Jedi in Ep1) especially if you look at them frame by frame.
The author of the video just ignores that.

8. I agree, and blame it on CGI to be honest. Actors just don't learn some skills that thoroughly anymore since half of the fighting scenes is CGI anyway. But that doesn't have anything to do with Disney not understanding Lightsabers.


The author of the video hates the new movies, I get it.
But he could stop being an ass nonetheless. Ignoring facts where it fits into the own narrative and going into hyperbole instead of presenting criticism in a mannered way contributed greatly to the toxic community we have right now in Star Wars. That's what ruins Star Wars for me much more than any good or bad decisions from Disney could.

 

[pendrake]

Why are all these lightsaber posts in this thread? but not in the The lightsaber duels thread??

@Scalenex can posts be removed from one thread and grafted into a different one?

 

[Aginor]

@Scalenex can posts be removed from one thread and grafted into a different one?

Not Scalenex, but yes that's possible.
The problem with that is: the forum doesn't mark the posts as moved, and inserts them into the other thread by time. So you might suddenly have two intertwined discussions going on in a thread and nobody who reads it understands it anymore.

What we could do:
- make a post in the other thread that quotes all the interesting posts from here
- ask everyone to continue the discussion there.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

1: Luke is using the term ironically.

I agree. Which is why I said it didn't bother me in my first post. However, I can also see the other side of the argument, especially when coupled with the way that Rian presented Luke.

2: Grievous isn't using the force, and IIRC there are several cases in the old EU where similar stuff happens.

Grievous is a great example, but it still isn't quite the same. Grievous was trained by Dooku specifically to take out Jedi. Grievous also had the advantage of his cybernetic body (he also had the blood of Jedi Sifo-Dyas transfused into his body). Even still, I always thought that the Jedi should have been able to deal with him quite easily with the force. Finn had first picked up a Lightsaber earlier in the movie. He has none of the advantages that Grievous has.

3. As you say, there are other cases.
Luke cuts through several people on Jabba's barge, without cutting pieces off them. Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Luke vs Vader are cuts with the tip.

Superficial wounds with very sharp blades are common in combat.
In the majority of sword cuts the tip of the sword is used. It is absolutely the same with medieval swords. Most of them were sharp enough to cut through limbs, but the nature of combat is that many blows are almost avoided, so you cut with the very tip of the blade.
It also helps staying away far enough from your opponent.

Superficial wounds are also good for dramatic purposes, when you just don't want to outright have the victim killed/maimed, but still show the skill of the user.
That's what they did with Dooku, with Luke, and with Kylo.

As I said in my post, in the OT and PT the superficial cuts were the exception to the rule while in the ST we no longer see the lightsaber function as it had previously.

Also a superficial cut with a medieval sword would be far more common than with a lightsaber since a lightsaber will go through a human body + clothes + armour with next to no force behind it and it doesn't rely on proper edge alignment.

4. Doesn't have anything to do with Disney understanding Lightsabers or not.

Sure it does. Previously all lightsaber duelists underwent significant training to be able to properly wield the weapon. Rey does not seem to need any training at all. Ergo, the OT & PT have established that the proper usage of the lightsaber required extensive training but under Disney that has gone completely out the window.

5. See #4

Fair enough, but that was just a side note / joke in the video.

6. Of course Luke doesn't really try.

That's the way I took it as well, but with Disney one has to be skeptical. So while I disagree with the video presenter on the Luke vs. Rey issue, I can't say that his knowledge is lacking.

In the case of Kylo, he is spot on correct.

7. I absolutely agree that some parts are sloppy. And yes the choreography has some bad/cheesy elements to it. But the very same is true for other fights in Star Wars as well, even my favourite one (Darth Maul vs. The two Jedi in Ep1) especially if you look at them frame by frame.
The author of the video just ignores that.

I agree partially, which I eluded to. However, those earlier lightsaber fights were better overall. Also, filming technology is getting more advanced so I would expect the standards to rise and not fall.

The disappearing weapon is just piss poor editing. The guy "dramatically" posing 20 meters away is a bit silly. The one guy throwing his weapon away for no good reason is horrible.

8. I agree, and blame it on CGI to be honest. Actors just don't learn some skills that thoroughly anymore since half of the fighting scenes is CGI anyway. But that doesn't have anything to do with Disney not understanding Lightsabers.

That is the case of Disney not putting forth the same level of effort to create a more compelling lightsaber fight. More resources are available to them today than Lucas had 20 years ago. Of course training takes effort, money and time.

I still want to see Rey vs Ray (Park). Ray Park is a legit martial arts practitioner. I'm not sure if this new crop of actors that Disney have brought on in the ST can adequately carry on the torch.

As for the issue of "Disney not understanding Lightsabers", I think you are taking that a bit too literally. What the author means by it is everything that is wrong with Lightsabers and Lightsaber fights/usage in the Disney era of SW movies.

The author of the video hates the new movies, I get it.
But he could stop being an ass nonetheless. Ignoring facts where it fits into the own narrative and going into hyperbole instead of presenting criticism in a mannered way contributed greatly to the toxic community we have right now in Star Wars. That's what ruins Star Wars for me much more than any good or bad decisions from Disney could.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However I happen to think that (for the most part) the video is pretty spot on and well supported. I also thought it was pretty damn funny. As for the toxic community, it takes two sides to Tango.

Plus the toxic community doesn't really bother me... I really do take after the Sith.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Why are all these lightsaber posts in this thread? but not in the The lightsaber duels thread??

@Scalenex can posts be removed from one thread and grafted into a different one?

The original thread had pretty much run its course anyways. The discussion is probably best left here.

 

[Aginor]

I would expect the standards to rise and not fall.

I wish it were like that.
But in fact most sequels that are not pre planned (and some even then) are worse than the original movies. Overall I wouldn't say than a movie 30 years later has to be strictly better. Which is kinda sad.

The guy "dramatically" posing 20 meters away is a bit silly.

Par for the course I guess, it is a common trope in Star Wars (and other movies as well. I _think_ it originated in Japanese/Chinese movies). Like Dooku jumping down the stairs before his fight in Ep3 (very silly) or Maul dramatically igniting his second lightsaber end (which was awesome), or the (halfway cool and halfway silly) stance of Kenobi when fighting Grievous.

About the Toxic community: yes of course, and the Internet makes it more interactive and more visible.