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Tutorial Match play Lists I often Use

You never have enough engines on the field. And kroak needs them both for summoning and mortalwounding.
 
Canas said:
that looks like an horrifically boring list, even if it might be effective :(
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GuaDan said:
You never have enough engines on the field. And kroak needs them both for summoning and mortalwounding.
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The list is bland, but the play options are rather varied. Essentially the list is just a tool box that enables the flexibility to either summon the right units at the right moments or deal mortal wounds when new units are not required.
 
LizardWizard said:
The list is bland, but the play options are rather varied. Essentially the list is just a tool box that enables the flexibility to either summon the right units at the right moments or deal mortal wounds when new units are not required.
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Are they though? Most summons will still be yet more skinks and razordons, with the occasional skink (star)priest to grab an objective. It might be varied if all of our summoning options where actually viable, but they're not..
 
Canas said:
Are they though? Most summons will still be yet more skinks and razordons, with the occasional skink (star)priest to grab an objective. It might be varied if all of our summoning options where actually viable, but they're not..
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That is a misnomer for Seraphon. Skinks might be the "best" summon from EotGs. However, CCP is a different story. I find that I summon whatever is needed for that particular game. Just last weekend while playing my DT/SS list at an RRT I had to summon 20 Saurus Warriors to protect my Slann from Idoneth Eels (needed the base size to prevent the Eels from flying over top the unit). I also summoned Chameleon Skinks, a Bastiladon, Ripperdactyls, and an EotGs through out the three matches. I never actually needed to summon Skinks or Razordons at any point.
 
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LizardWizard said:
That is a misnomer for Seraphon. Skinks might be the "best" summon from EotGs. However, CCP is a different story. I find that I summon whatever is needed for that particular game. Just last weekend while playing my DT/SS list at an RRT I had to summon 20 Saurus Warriors to protect my Slann from Idoneth Eels (needed the base size to prevent the Eels from flying over top the unit). I also summoned Chameleon Skinks, a Bastiladon, Ripperdactyls, and an EotGs through out the three matches. I never actually needed to summon Skinks or Razordons at any point.
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My point was more that skinks & razordons are the only things that can viably be summoned frequently. Especially within 1 given match they're really the only ones to be summoned multiple times. Everything else is either expensive enough that it rarely will be summoned more than once, and involves your Slann doing nothing for 2-3 turns to gather up the points, or is stupidly niche (like your example with saurus, I'm honestly kind of amazed it's managed to find a use in a tournament, as a sidenote, wouldn't 30 skinks have been more effective? It'd cost the same).
And yes, technicly anything will have some niche in which that particular unit would be brilliant, I'm sure we can find a reason to summon Kroxigor or saurus guard as well if we try hard enough. But If that situation is only really applicable once every 50 matches and the rest consist of throwing skinks at an opponent it doesn't really count (and yes I'm exaggerating a bit :P).

It's not surprising though, it's rather difficult to avoid situations where there isn't a very obvious option that's most efficient for something like summoning. The old mechanic of them being summoned with spells did have advantages in that aspect by including more than just point-costs.
 
Canas said:
My point was more that skinks & razordons are the only things that can viably be summoned frequently. Especially within 1 given match they're really the only ones to be summoned multiple times. Everything else is either expensive enough that it rarely will be summoned more than once, and involves your Slann doing nothing for 2-3 turns to gather up the points, or is stupidly niche (like your example with saurus, I'm honestly kind of amazed it's managed to find a use in a tournament, as a sidenote, wouldn't 30 skinks have been more effective? It'd cost the same).
And yes, technicly anything will have some niche in which that particular unit would be brilliant, I'm sure we can find a reason to summon Kroxigor or saurus guard as well if we try hard enough. But If that situation is only really applicable once every 50 matches and the rest consist of throwing skinks at an opponent it doesn't really count (and yes I'm exaggerating a bit :p).

It's not surprising though, it's rather difficult to avoid situations where there isn't a very obvious option that's most efficient for something like summoning. The old mechanic of them being summoned with spells did have advantages in that aspect by including more than just point-costs.
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This has not been my experience. I play at ITC events every month. This entire year I have yet to summon Skinks and I have summoned a single Razordon once. Most of the people I play against are in the top 25 for ITC, so they aren't niche games.

20 Warriors were better than 30 skinks because I failed to return to my screens with my Slann's LoSaT. I needed something that could encircle the Slann, have a large enough base that an Eel couldn't chain across it, and keep my Slann more than 3" from the outside edge. I tend to summon 20 warriors in about 1/5th of my games.
 
LizardWizard said:
That is a misnomer for Seraphon. Skinks might be the "best" summon from EotGs. However, CCP is a different story. I find that I summon whatever is needed for that particular game. Just last weekend while playing my DT/SS list at an RRT I had to summon 20 Saurus Warriors to protect my Slann from Idoneth Eels (needed the base size to prevent the Eels from flying over top the unit). I also summoned Chameleon Skinks, a Bastiladon, Ripperdactyls, and an EotGs through out the three matches. I never actually needed to summon Skinks or Razordons at any point.
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Canas said:
My point was more that skinks & razordons are the only things that can viably be summoned frequently. Especially within 1 given match they're really the only ones to be summoned multiple times. Everything else is either expensive enough that it rarely will be summoned more than once, and involves your Slann doing nothing for 2-3 turns to gather up the points, or is stupidly niche (like your example with saurus, I'm honestly kind of amazed it's managed to find a use in a tournament, as a sidenote, wouldn't 30 skinks have been more effective? It'd cost the same).
And yes, technicly anything will have some niche in which that particular unit would be brilliant, I'm sure we can find a reason to summon Kroxigor or saurus guard as well if we try hard enough. But If that situation is only really applicable once every 50 matches and the rest consist of throwing skinks at an opponent it doesn't really count (and yes I'm exaggerating a bit :p).

It's not surprising though, it's rather difficult to avoid situations where there isn't a very obvious option that's most efficient for something like summoning. The old mechanic of them being summoned with spells did have advantages in that aspect by including more than just point-costs.
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I have to agree with @LizardWizard on this. To gather summon points you pay a high price. The thing with different units is that a unit isn’t good or bad. It all depends on the situation.
And ofcourse some situations happen more often than others, thats why people stamp one unit bad.
But having the flexibility to adapt to the army im facing is a real winner for us. For example I brought a unit of terradons, if I would face a celestant of dracoth with staunch defender. Or have to options to summon a warden if my slann is under threat. While in most games, I dont need to have a warden, and certainly didnt want to pay the points for that. Best example might be the Starpriest, with the -1 to hit. It used to be an autoinclude for the possibility you would face an army with extra stuff in 6+. Now I can just have it in the bank. Saving me 80 points on other stuff if it would be obsolete to have a starpriest
 
LizardWizard said:
This has not been my experience. I play at ITC events every month. This entire year I have yet to summon Skinks and I have summoned a single Razordon once. Most of the people I play against are in the top 25 for ITC, so they aren't niche games.

20 Warriors were better than 30 skinks because I failed to return to my Screens with my Slann's LoSaT. I needed something that could encircle the Slann, have a large enough base that an Eel couldn't chain across it, and keep my Slann more than 3" from the outside edge. I tend to summon 20 warriors in about 1/5th of my games.
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Also 20 saurus can be good for driving an opponent of an objective. They can do ‘some’ damage. Ofcourse a razordon could probably do more damage, but you mis out on the amount of ‘models’.
 
Meh, I still think it'l end up being a fairly boring list but that's largely due to the way summoning works in conjunction with how "short" AoS games are (short as in, only 5 turns).

Issue is that most situations will have a fairly Obvious optimal summon option, so you just pick that. Then some of those situations will (obviously) be vastly more common than others. And with only 5 turns chances are you (generally) won't see a whole lot of different situations in the same match. Then to top it off the way summoning, and generating points, currently works is fairly deterministic with relativly few significant trade-offs (god our slann need an actual lore). It all becomes a tad too predictable.


Also as a sidenote @LizardWizard, if you're playing in the top 25 they are niche games. You're playing in at the top 1% (or whatever it is), and generally speaking in any game the top 1% plays different from the common plebs on account of them being way better. You might ultimatly set the meta as the average players try to emulate your strategies, but generally speaking high level play tends to be different from the average. As evident by how frequent you summon saurus warriors. Just look around on this forum at how badly warriors are viewed outside of a sunclaw and not even in a horde, I'd be surprised if other players would come even close to your number of 1 in 5 games.
 
Canas said:
Also as a sidenote @LizardWizard, if you're playing in the top 25 they are niche games. You're playing in at the top 1% (or whatever it is), and generally speaking in any game the top 1% plays different from the common plebs on account of them being way better. You might ultimatly set the meta as the average players try to emulate your strategies, but generally speaking high level play tends to be different from the average.
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This is valid. I posted the list as a tournament list so my line of thinking was in terms of how it would be played at other events and not in a friendly environment. At a tournament the Kroak list is definitely a toolbox build that can switch from bringing to field needed units or pumping out mortal wounds. Summoning Saurus Warriors is not frequent, but they are they best at what they do. As a result they pop up with some regularity at events. Normally when 20 32mm bases are needed. lol.
 
I have the sneaky suspicion that is a lot less common at "normal" levels of play as the 20 bases are a utility aspect, and not even a particularly Obvious one. And utility tends to be overlooked at lower levels of play in favor of shiny stat-lines that do loads of damage (or have loads of defenses) :p

Though that might explain why your experience revolves less around spamming skinks and razordons while most other remarks I see around here do tend to heavily favor those. The fact that those are super cost efficient is far less important if you actually have the skill (and oppertunity) to use whatever utility a unit might bring besides its raw stats and opens up a load of options to be commonly viable (or at least usefull).
 
Canas said:
Though that might explain why your experience revolves less around spamming skinks and razordons. The fact that those are super cost efficient is far less important if you actually have the skill (and oppertunity) to use whatever utility a unit might bring besides its raw stats and opens up a load of options to be commonly viable (or at least usefull).
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I don't believe in useless units, just units who's uses I have yet to discover:D
 
2000pt 16 Razordons Shadowstrike Starhost

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu

LEADERS:
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Command Trait : Great Rememberer
- Artefact : Miasmatic Blade
Skink Starpriest (80)
Engine of the Gods (220)
- Artefact : Spellmirror

UNITS:
6 x Ripperdactyl Riders (280)
20 x Skinks (120)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
4 x Razordons (160)
4 x Razordons (160)
4 x Razordons (160)
4 x Razordons (160)

BATTALIONS:
Shadowstrike Starhost (180)

ENDLESS SPELLS:
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

TOTAL: 2000/2000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1
WOUNDS: 127

The list is pretty self explanatory. The 20x Jav Skink unit is part of Shadowstrike. The battalion's Stealthy advance and other more tempting priority targets should allow for the Skinks to survive long enough to get in range with the Javs. Use the Rippers to kill key elements of the enemy army. Razordons and Skinks should be able to keep the opponent stuck in their own territory for a turn or two.

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Why javalins and why a unit of 20? Even if they get into range it's not like they'l achieve much. Why not pick say a unit of handlers instead?
 
Canas said:
Why javalins and why a unit of 20? Even if they get into range it's not like they'l achieve much. Why not pick say a unit of handlers instead?
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It is because of the battalion. 20 Skinks with the Stealthy Advance, Cogs, Charges, and/or Weary Fighter have a high probability of threatening enemy objectives turn one and two. The javs are a better profile than the Boltspitters when they have range. Seeing as they will be in enemy territory they should have range. Normally when my EotGs rolls into summoning I bring 20 jav Skinks to field. Frequently they do much more damage than I or my opponent were expecting. They should do even better in this list due to the Skinks being at a 4+ hit, 4+wound, & rerollings ones for both (battalion and unit size buffs). Depending on the target's save characteristic they should net 2-5 damage.

Handlers aren't a bad option. If you lack confidence in Skinks stealing objectives then definitely drop the unit down to 10 and takes some handlers.
 
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