AoS What a turn of event.

[tom1017]

Hi all.

I'd like to share my distress and hear your hindsight about the game I played yesterday.

It was the first time ever I played Seraphon. My collection is just made of the Xmas battle force because I wanted another 1000 point army to play little games with my daughter (my main army is a mix of funky greenskins).

Anyway, I had the basic 1000 you can build with the battle force: old blood on carnosaur, 3 ripperdactyls and 3 terradons (with bolas). Add to this a starpriest, 2x10 skinks with boltspitters and a bastiladon.

My opponent was playing Tzeentch including a unit I feared a lot: 20 Tsengors (or whatever it's spelled). He also had 10 pink horrors, 10 cultists, a kinda minotaur looking like champion to go with the Tsengors and a wizard he used to sacrifice miniatures to throw tough spells at my face.

We were playing an open war scenario. The setting was basic, along the edges of the table, 24 inches from each other, the twist implied we could heal d3 on 1 unit at each hero phase and the objectives were set like this:
My opponent placed 2 on a side, hoping to deploy there, I placed 2 on the middle line, near the edges, counting on my extra mobility.

He got to deploy as he wished, decided to go first but due to failed run rolls he didn't get to score the points for the objectives on the sides.

Anyway, long story short, by the end of the 2nd turn we both had scored 5 points and most of my units were used against his Tsengors (I think I killed 8 out of 20 while the Carnosaur was down to 6 HP).
This situation was also due to a very indecent luck on my part with many 6's for my saving rolls. My opponent was even getting really grumpy when he's usually pretty cool.

Then I realized my only chance was to grab the double turn because my opponent had chosen to start at the first turn.

Only I didn't get the double turn, couldn't use my bastiladon and carnosaur to weaken his Tsengor more and kill his Minotaur Champ with a spell of my own (he had only 1 HP left).
Instead, my opponent healed his champ up to 4 HP and simply disintegrated my carnosaur with a 6 (!) mortal wound spell.

It was only the hero phase, the coming shotting and battle phase leaving me no chance we called it here.

So my question is:
I had so much luck my opponent was getting mad and I was even feeling a tad ashamed, but then, suddenly, I just lose the game.

Is this battle force even good?

Thanks for the help.

t.

edit: omg spelling + clarification.

 

[Crowsfoot]

The battleforce on it's own isn't optimized to construct a full army, think of it as a starting block that you add too.

 

[GuaDan]

The battleforce is a more then excellent starting point, but as Crowsfoot said is not optimized and those units actually only work well if you synergize around them (READ->Shadowstrike Starhost)

 

[tom1017]

Yeah I was afraid it's the case.
Thing is I just bought it to have a little extra army (with great-looking and fun units) to play against my daughter. I suppose I'll have to ask my opponents to adjust to non-OP/competitive lists when they face me if I wanna play this list.

Also, I'm thinking I may have made a poor choice for the artefact.
I took the one giving +1 rend to my oldblood's spear. I think the one allowing me possible mortal wounds (up to a d6 with a little luck) may have helped more because I got the Tzeentch hero down to 1 HP twice but the Ripperdatyl on their own never managed to kill him as he regenerated HP twice.

Being able to deal some mortal wounds may have helped, even if it wouldn't have changed the fact his sorcerer would have vaporized my carnosaur.

I'm thinking maybe I should have sent my flyers against his sorcerer but he was well screened by horrors.
Also the thing is the 20 Tsengors are a damn threat on their own. Those guys have spent hours spanking my greenskins in the past so I tried to deal with them first.

Still, considering the battle force and considering I prefer to play 1000 points game, just out of curiosity, what would you change if you were to swap a couple of units for something else (and please don't suggest the slann because I don't want to rely on invocation)?

 

[Crowsfoot]

1000 pt Shadowstrike will destroy almost any army.

Do you want a list that will make your friend cry? the following list is @LizardWizard tournament list he has added comments below on how to use it.

1000pt Shadowstrike Starhost

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Mortal Realm: Ghur

LEADERS:
Skink Starpriest (80)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
- Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm

UNITS:
6 x Ripperdactyl Riders (280)
40 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
4 x Razordons (160)

BATTALIONS:
Shadowstrike Starhost (180)

TOTAL: 1000/1000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS:
1 WOUNDS: 84

This is the list I bring to 1k tournaments. It is extremely brutal, but fragile. Once you learn how to pilot it effectively it is in my experience nearly unbeatable.

The goal is simply and effective. Kill your opponents biggest threats with a devastating turn one. Use LoSaT to bring your Razordons into the fight and be positionally aggressive with your 40 man Skink unit from the onset.

With strong decision making you can gain an unbeatable lead on objectives by turn three while the opponent is picking themselves back up from your alpha strike. When games go to turn 5 I am almost always nearly tabled, but the early objective lead is enough to carry me through.

 

[LizardWizard]

Razordons can be expensive to get. If you aren't wanting to spend much additional funds then I recommend picking up one extra box of Ripperdactyls. This will let you buff your unit of 3 to 6 and then you can fill in the slot that would be occupied by the Razordons with a unit of 3 Terradons.

 

[tom1017]

Yeah I understand the advice here, but I'd just be happy with a list that can challenge my friends.
I'm no tournament player and I don't look for super brutal lists. I tend to play the minis I like, which is why I built a carnosaur and 3 terradons, not 6 ripperdactyls.
The thing is I'm not quite sure there's a middle ground here, if you wanna play 1000 points and without a slann.

What I will try sometime is to proxy 2 razordons and try the shadowstrike battalion instead of the oldblood on carnosaur or maybe the bastiladon.
I did build 3 terradons with the battle force but maybe I'll still be able to challenge my opponent with a 3 ripperdactyl alphastrike.

I'll also try your idea, LizardWizard, and will proxy 3 rippers in another friendly game, to have more flyers, which sounds like a lot more fun to me than a pack of 40 skinks.

Ah well, sometimes I feel I aint no AoS player, but still, thanks a lot for the advice and help, guys.
At least I'm confident I'll have fun playing with my daughter because I should be able to build a funky greenskins list to face the basic seraphon battle force on an even level.

Cheers!

edit: hmmm, 3 rippers and the battalion are worth 320 points if I'm not mistaken, and my big Dinos are worth 260 and 280. I may eventually find it hard to try your idea, LizardWizard, while I can more simply kick a Dino out to play the battalion and proxy 2 razordons (260 points here). Pity, I liked what you suggested...

 

[GuaDan]

If you want to keep it strong but fun, there are several options, and most of them were hinted to in some way.
First of all, pick the battalion; this can make most of your unit much more effective.
Then, you can either invest in another flying group, to add to the flying unit in the battalion (rippers is more competitive but terradons can go too), use the basti, proxy some razordons.

I believe the sole usage of the battalion, with your current models and not much more, will suffice your needs.

 

[tom1017]

Indeed, although it sounds strange to me that kicking a big shiny dinosaur out of my list and replace it with 2 "weaker" units (the razordons) and a battalion can make the list stronger.

Regarding the option to have more flyers, it'll be trouble because the battalion and 3 more ripperdactyls are 320 points. I'd have to kick both of my big shiny Dinos to build this, I mean if I wanna keep the Terradons. Or did I miss Something?

All in all it feels that my only option if I wanna keep the Carnosaur or the Bastiladon is to stick with 6 flyers (3+3 or 6 Ripperdactyls for a nastier alphastrike).
That said without investing into a lot more models, of course.

I'll still give it a go of course, because the battalion sure sounds really cool.

Cheers !

 

[tom1017]

Ok here I am again.

My friend and myself played another 1000 point yesterday.
I played the same list and he played a slightly different Tzeentch list: only 10 Tsaangors, 2 units of 3 flying Tsaangors on some discs with a shaman on a flying disc, 10 pink horrors and a deamon as a general.

There was 2 objectives, 1 in each half of the battlefield. The victory condition was sudden death if you control both objectives at the end of your opponent's turn.
The twist for the battle didn't favor me much: Frenzy so +1 att for each melee weapon. Considering 20 minis for my army are skinks with boltspitters, it wasn't a good twist for me.

Anyway, long story short (again): He chooses to play first (our deployment zones were at 12 inches from each other and he was in the front line while I was a little more conservative, counting on counterchargeing with my flyers and shots from the Bastiladon). I was also counting on telepporting 01 skinks in his back once he'd be close to my obj area.
1st turn he charges with everything but keeps his 10 pink horrors in the back to guard his obj in case I try some teleporting shenanigan. Then he starts at the second turn. He manages to engage my Carnosaur with his general and 3 dudes on discs, I deal some damage but get completely destroyed.
At this point I had also lost both of my flying units who did some good work but I had too little left to hope for a victory, and called it there.

So here's my weekly question:
How the hell do you use an OldBlood on Carnosaure if he's your only big hitter in the army?
He's seconded by a starpriest, 2x3 flyers, 2x10 skinks and a bastiladon. He has to move in or do I miss the point here?
I played 2 games and this time he didn't even get enough time to play his second turn :'(

There's obviously Something I'm doing wrong... Advice will be highly appreciated.

Cheers.

 

[LizardWizard]

In Age of Sigmar you want to be fighting in waves. This is in part to keep your heavy hitters fresh and available when you need them. Try to possition your Oldblood Carno behind your first wave. You want more than 1 heavy hitter in any list. Maximizing your threats will go a long way towards overwhelming you opponent. You might need to be getting your Bastiliadon into combat to help out.

 

[tom1017]

Howdy LizardWizard.

As always I value and and appreciate your input a lot, kudos.

I hear you when you say AoS is about fighting in waves. It's something I've started to grasp when I play my greenskins.

My problem here is that I don't know how to organize said waves with the Seraphon units I have.

Let's say the skinks mainly have a tactical job regarding objectives and denying fights to the opponent (really, wary fighters is an awesome and fun ability), it seemed to me so far I should consider moving in first with a unit of flyers, the carnosaur and kinda the bastiladon, keeping the 2nd unit of flyers for a tactical and deadly strike if possible (I gotta say the bolas and swooping dives are quite fun too).

Are you suggesting the flyers and Bastiladon should be my spearhead while the carnosaur takes a few gauntlet shots for 2-3 turns and waits to strike at weakened unit(s) around turn 3-4?

If so I'm quite willing to give it a try, but you gotta admit it's really not an intuitive way to play a DAMNED HUGE SHINY BLOOD THIRSTY T-REX (sorry I had to "yell" it).

Cheers ^.^

 

[LizardWizard]

Are you suggesting the flyers and Bastiladon should be my spearhead while the carnosaur takes a few gauntlet shots for 2-3 turns and waits to strike at weakened unit(s) around turn 3-4?

If so I'm quite willing to give it a try, but you gotta admit it's really not an intuitive way to play a DAMNED HUGE SHINY BLOOD THIRSTY T-REX (sorry I had to "yell" it).

Cheers ^.^

As you have described is how I tend to use mine. Many players in my experience expect monster to preform like a sledge hammer. In reality they work much more like an oversize scalpel. Normally by turn two of three I have learned where the Carno is most needed. And am thus able to send them in as a targeted attack and/or counter attack.

In the AoS meta monsters are at a huge disadvantage to hordes of infantry. You need to keep your Carno's mobile and avoid being bogged down. The speed of the Carno, especially after it can run and charge, is it's greatest asset. Try to get into your opponent's back field after the units which are capable of threatening it have been tied up in combat or removed from the table.

 

[tom1017]

Ok ok, I'll give it a try.
I may have an opportunity to play again next tuesday, only this time it'll be against Skaven Eshin clan, so I have no idea if I'll be able to hold on the big guy before it gets engaged/bogged down since I expect units to pop up from everywhere. I already know I'll be outnumbered 1 to 2 at least...