Star Trek vs. Star Wars (and a collection of memes)

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[Scalenex]

Was Obi Wan being mysognist or misandric when he hid Luke and Leia?

Luke was hidden with Anakin's only living relatives under Anakin's last name on a sparsely populated planet with less than a hundred thousand people to hide in the crowd with. The planet had a harsh climate, hostile tribes, monsters, and a huge organized crime presence.

Leia was hidden by wealthy well connected, well protected nobles under a false name on the safest planet in the galaxy, with billions of people to hide among, virtually no crime, and a Edenic paradise of safety and comfort.

Granted, despite all common sense, Tatoonine ended up being safer than Alderaan but there is no way Obi Wan could have known this, or if he did, he was a monster for not taking steps to warn Alderaan.

Also, Anakin/Darth Vader believed his child was dead but if for even a second he thought he had one (or two) children alive he surely send someone to question Owen and Beru and anyone with half a brain would notice their nephew named Skywalker. Darth Vader would have never found his daughter unless someone told him her first and last name. Ditto if Palpatine went looking for Anakin's child/children.

Either Obi Wan though Leia was more valuable and Luke was the expendable sibling (misandry) or Obi Wan thought Luke was more capable of dealing with the challenges ahead of him and Leia was the fragile weaker sibling (mysogeny). Possibly both.


Or there is the third possibilty that George Lucas did not decide to make Luke and Leia brother and sister until after New Hope (or after Empire Strikes back) and this only looked bad in retrospect with the prequels.

One of the things that really bothers me about the end of Episode 3 is that every character goes to their stage location for New Hope. Between Episode 3 and Episode 4, See Threepio and Arto Deeto spent nearly 20 years on one Corellian Corvette. Obi Wan spent 20 years on Tattooine. Yoda spend 20+ years on Dagobath. They don't have to immedately go to their starting places in A New Hope. We, the audience are not stupid. People move.

Here's a Star Trek example of "We're not stupid, don't patronize us." One of the last Star Trek, the Next Generation movies had Jean Luc Picard looking through a photo album of his life. First off, you could ask why he has a photo album and not a holo-album, but that can be overlooked. Picard is a traditionalist who likes old school things, but the one photo they showed him as a young man at the Academy showed him as being bald. He made an off hand comment that he was bald there because "he lost a bet." But the message it told viewers "The creators of this movie think you are too stupid to recognize a young man as being Picard if he's not bald."

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[Aginor]

Was Obi Wan being mysognist or misandric when he hid Luke and Leia?

Luke was hidden with Anakin's only living relatives under Anakin's last name on a sparsely populated planet with less than a hundred thousand people to hide in the crowd with. The planet had a harsh climate, hostile tribes, monsters, and a huge organized crime presence.

Leia was hidden by wealthy well connected, well protected nobles under a false name on the safest planet in the galaxy, with billions of people to hide among, virtually no crime, and a Edenic paradise of safety and comfort.

Granted, despite all common sense, Tatoonine ended up being safer than Alderaan but there is no way Obi Wan could have known this, or if he did, he was a monster for not taking steps to warn Alderaan.

Also, Anakin/Darth Vader believed his child was dead but if for even a second he thought he had one (or two) children alive he surely send someone to question Owen and Beru and anyone with half a brain would notice their nephew named Skywalker. Darth Vader would have never found his daughter unless someone told him her first and last name. Ditto if Palpatine went looking for Anakin's child/children.

Either Obi Wan though Leia was more valuable and Luke was the expendable sibling (misandry) or Obi Wan thought Luke was more capable of dealing with the challenges ahead of him and Leia was the fragile weaker sibling (mysogeny). Possibly both.


Or there is the third possibilty that George Lucas did not decide to make Luke and Leia brother and sister until after New Hope (or after Empire Strikes back) and this only looked bad in retrospect with the prequels.

One of the things that really bothers me about the end of Episode 3 is that every character goes to their stage location for New Hope. Between Episode 3 and Episode 4, See Threepio and Arto Deeto spent nearly 20 years on one Corellian Corvette. Obi Wan spent 20 years on Tattooine. Yoda spend 20+ years on Dagobath. They don't have to immedately go to their starting places in A New Hope. We, the audience are not stupid. People move.

Here's a Star Trek example of "We're not stupid, don't patronize us." One of the last Star Trek, the Next Generation movies had Jean Luc Picard looking through a photo album of his life. First off, you could ask why he has a photo album and not a holo-album, but that can be overlooked. Picard is a traditionalist who likes old school things, but the one photo they showed him as a young man at the Academy showed him as being bald. He made an off hand comment that he was bald there because "he lost a bet." But the message it told viewers "The creators of this movie think you are too stupid to recognize a young man as being Picard if he's not bald."

Well....
I used to think like that, but I don't bother anymore.
Because many people _are_ stupid.
If movies were made for clever people they would be drastically different.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Either Obi Wan though Leia was more valuable and Luke was the expendable sibling (misandry) or Obi Wan thought Luke was more capable of dealing with the challenges ahead of him and Leia was the fragile weaker sibling (mysogeny). Possibly both.

Obi Wan had nothing to do with the decision. Bail Organa offered to take Leia and Yoda suggested that Luke be taken to Tatooine.

I believe the reason Tatooine was chosen was because Anakin would avoid going there because of his past, or so I read.

 

[Aginor]

I really forgot about that.
Probably because that is one of the dumbest scenes of Star Wars IMO. Both for the reason mentioned by Scalenex and Padme being the worst mom ever. Whiny little... leaving her kids because.. .... argh...
I don't hit women but for Padme in that scene I could bitch slap her (and everyone who thought that scene was a good idea), and I am angry that Obi-Wan didn't.

That scene made me more angry about poor writing than JarJar, L-1337, Rose, and even Anakin ever could, and still does every time I see it. I love Star Wars but this is the low point for me.

There were two ways I would have done this:
1. Padme dies, just like in the movie. Because Anakin killed her. He force choked her dead. He maybe accidentally also sucked the life out of her in his anger (Palpatine wasn't lying, he killed her with Force Drain, an old power). They manage to save the children and the rest is basically the same.

2. Padme lives, but she is broken. She lives on Alderaan, disguised, for a few more years. Just long enough so Leia can remember her being sad. Then she passes away. A scene that would be frikkin' consistent with the OT as it should.
Luke is meant to go there as well, but Obi-Wan senses the Force being strong in him and they decide to keep him away from civilization so Palpatine/Vader/inquisitors/whatever cannot find him. That further contributes to breaking Padme's heart.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I really forgot about that.
Probably because that is one of the dumbest scenes of Star Wars IMO. Both for the reason mentioned by Scalenex and Padme being the worst mom ever. Whiny little... leaving her kids because.. .... argh...
I don't hit women but for Padme in that scene I could bitch slap her (and everyone who thought that scene was a good idea), and I am angry that Obi-Wan didn't.

That scene made me more angry about poor writing than JarJar, L-1337, Rose, and even Anakin ever could, and still does every time I see it. I love Star Wars but this is the low point for me.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Disney have released an Imperial Propaganda video:

Should we be worried that they’re trying to enlist youngsters into the Stormtrooper Corps?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Disney have released an Imperial Propaganda video:

Should we be worried that they’re trying to enlist youngsters into the Stormtrooper Corps?

I'd be more worried about GET WOKE, GO BROKE...

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I'd be more worried about GET WOKE, GO BROKE...

Yeah I was wondering if I should mention that one. That’s got to be the worst one so far because it’s completely wrong, unlike the others which have so far been pretty accurate recreations of their scenes in the films. Coincidentally I’ve just been rewatching Episode IV at the moment and have just re-seen the original version of that Death Star scene only yesterday. True, Leia did think of the idea of jumping into the rubbish compactor and blasted the way in, but it was Han who shoved his best mate Chewie down into the drink and Luke was the one who threaded the grappling hook while Leia simply covered him. Yes I am supporting the OT over this nonsense that is literally embodying KK’s evil fanaticism.

 

[ravagekitteh]

Yeah I was wondering if I should mention that one. That’s got to be the worst one so far because it’s completely wrong, unlike the others which have so far been pretty accurate recreations of their scenes in the films. Coincidentally I’ve just been rewatching Episode IV at the moment and have just re-seen the original version of that Death Star scene only yesterday. True, Leia did think of the idea of jumping into the rubbish compactor and blasted the way in, but it was Han who shoved his best mate Chewie down into the drink and Luke was the one who threaded the grappling hook while Leia simply covered him. Yes I am supporting the OT over this nonsense that is literally embodying KK’s evil fanaticism.

Nope, sorry I don’t see this. Loads of characters have focus shorts like this for Galaxy of Adventures and having just watched them I’d say they all feature exaggeration to make said character look better than the others, and portray events in a more over the top manner than they occurred. This one is no different, but apparently it’s ‘fanatic over the top wokeness’. I might just be missing something, but surely you have better things to complain about?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Yeah I was wondering if I should mention that one

Yes... always mention it. We must band together or they will sink the franchise.

Not quite as father and son, but I'm sure you get the gist...

That’s got to be the worst one so far because it’s completely wrong, unlike the others which have so far been pretty accurate recreations of their scenes in the films. Coincidentally I’ve just been rewatching Episode IV at the moment and have just re-seen the original version of that Death Star scene only yesterday. True, Leia did think of the idea of jumping into the rubbish compactor and blasted the way in, but it was Han who shoved his best mate Chewie down into the drink and Luke was the one who threaded the grappling hook while Leia simply covered him.

I completely agree. In the OT, they worked together to escape. Leia was shown to be heroic and brave without the need to upstage Luke, Han and Chewie. Here Luke is shown to be an incompetent useless coward.

Yes I am supporting the OT over this nonsense that is literally embodying KK’s evil fanaticism.

Similarly, I find that my appreciation of the Prequels has grown since all this Disney stuff has come out. There may be things in them that I dislike, but they felt like they expanded and cared about the Star Wars universe. Never once did they give me the impression that Star Wars was second and outside political bungling was first.

Nope, sorry I don’t see this.

I'm kidding of course, I just wanted to use that clip! You may hold any views and opinions that you desire.

More seriously, it is there, whether or not you can see it. Others see it....




Just for comparison sake and to establish a baseline...

I’d say they all feature exaggeration to make said character look better than the others, and portray events in a more over the top manner than they occurred.

In this one they make Luke out to be a complete twit. It is one thing to make an exaggeration, but it is an entirely different to completely change the narrative. If a person had never seen the OT and saw only this, they would come away with a completely different view of Han, Chewie and especially Luke. That is not the case for the other ones that I've seen.

I might just be missing something, but surely you have better things to complain about?

When one puts forth statements that act to silence the opinions of others (even if inadvertently), they will likely find their own viewpoints quickly silenced as well.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Yes... always mention it. We must band together or they will sink the franchise.

Well, we can say one thing about the Disney films - they’ve helped the OT and Prequel fans band together against a new enemy, like the scene in Rebels where Rex and General Kalani put aside their differences to fight the real threat - Darth Sidious and his Empire.

Similarly, I find that my appreciation of the Prequels has grown since all this Disney stuff has come out. There may be things in them that I dislike, but they felt like they expanded and cared about the Star Wars universe. Never once did they give me the impression that Star Wars was second and outside political bungling was first.

Great to hear it!

One special thing that I enjoy about the Prequel films is that they each created one or more planets with their own cast of indigenous species (the Gungans on Naboo, the Geonosians on Geonosis, the Wookiees on Kashyyyk, the Utai and Pau’ans on Utapau and the Kaminoans on Kamino) all of which contributed significantly to either the plot of the film or the history of the Star Wars galaxy (or both), while we see very little of this in the Disney films (even my favourite Rogue One) - the only planets with native species from these films I can think of off the top of my head are Mimban from Solo and Ach’To from Episode VIII, and even then the Mimbanese are an enemy in the trenches that you don’t see that much in the actual film and the Caretakers don’t contribute much to the plot of the Last Jedi. Most often they just cram the planets with the most outrageous species they can think of rather than developing a backstory for each of them with how their native races evolved.

Just for comparison sake and to establish a baseline...

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Of course the interesting thing is that all these you’ve listed and other Galaxy of Adventures sketches (including the Empire one I found) have proved to be very popular, meaning Disney can still make good stuff as long as it captures the spirit of the 6 Lucasfilm movies well. Stray from this and they find only pain, suffering and death. The question is, will they look at this and learn their lesson from it? I don’t know, only time will tell.

 

[Scalenex]

Should we be worried that they’re trying to enlist youngsters into the Stormtrooper Corps?

This video a little dated, because in the real world the US Army seems to have dropped their slogan "I am an army of one" but here you go. For decades the slogan was "Be all you can be, in the army" I don't even know what the slogan is now.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[ravagekitteh]

When one puts forth statements that act to silence the opinions of others (even if inadvertently), they will likely find their own viewpoints quickly silenced as well.

Fair enough! I wasn’t trying to silence your opinion, merely state my own and try to change yours, much in the same way as you do with many things, but I guess I just came across a bit to aggressive, so sorry for that

In this one they make Luke out to be a complete twit. It is one thing to make an exaggeration, but it is an entirely different to completely change the narrative. If a person had never seen the OT and saw only this, they would come away with a completely different view of Han, Chewie and especially Luke. That is not the case for the other ones that I've seen.

I guess you could argue that the rescue attempt wasn’t going particularly smoothly, and when Leia did get involved she did somewhat whip them into shape, or at least held her own and the events were more or less an over the top rendition of that. You have to admit, who pushes Chewie down the shaft is a pretty minor change, and I don’t think it’s quite worth that much outrage. The elevator shaft is a slightly different case, but I guess I see it this way. The short was meant to advertise Leia. In the words of the Thick of It, a British political satire show:
“I sell the apples. If you want me to sell the apples I will sell the apples, and tell everyone they’re great. However, if you want me to sell the oranges then I’ll tell everyone that, you know what, the apples are shit, guys, they’re shit.”. Perhaps an extreme example, but that’s what I’d say is the basic gist. Probably not exonerating them, but I’d say the blame lies more with marketing then ‘SJW fanaticism’

Similarly, I find that my appreciation of the Prequels has grown since all this Disney stuff has come out. There may be things in them that I dislike, but they felt like they expanded and cared about the Star Wars universe. Never once did they give me the impression that Star Wars was second and outside political bungling was first.

Perhaps I’m misremembering, but when these films came out, I seem to remember you guys all saying that you really enjoyed The Last Jedi, but now you seem to all hate it due to ‘SJW Nazi Communist Burn Kathleen Kennedy Stick Rian Johnson’s head in a pike fanaticism’ (obviously an exaggeration). What changed? Sure some of the casting an messages perhaps seemed a bit forced, but if you ignore fan rage, it seems to be having a positive impact on the community in terms of diversity. Would it be preferable if Rey was a man, or if Rose was American? I don’t mean to suggest you are racist sexist or anything - far from it - but you seem to be ranting about SJWs and that sort of thing, while also complaining about being a Marie Sue and such. Now to me, the SJW part of it would be that she is female, while the characterisation would be more down to script writing. That the two go together is a bit of a coincidence in my view. Now if it’s one or the other then that’s fine, but you seem to be talking about them as if it’s one and the same. That’s partly what I don’t get.

One special thing that I enjoy about the Prequel films is that they each created one or more planets with their own cast of indigenous species (the Gungans on Naboo, the Geonosians on Geonosis, the Wookiees on Kashyyyk, the Utai and Pau’ans on Utapau and the Kaminoans on Kamino) all of which contributed significantly to either the plot of the film or the history of the Star Wars galaxy (or both), while we see very little of this in the Disney films (even my favourite Rogue One) - the only planets with native species from these films I can think of off the top of my head are Mimban from Solo and Ach’To from Episode VIII, and even then the Mimbanese are an enemy in the trenches that you don’t see that much in the actual film and the Caretakers don’t contribute much to the plot of the Last Jedi. Most often they just cram the planets with the most outrageous species they can think of rather than developing a backstory for each of them with how their native races evolved.

That is something I do agree with. The prequels had alien civilisations that were explored and developed and played a part in the story, whereas with the Sequels the were mainly there as just background world building without any real depth. It would be nice if they included some of this in Episode IX. We’ve at least got the various TV shows to keep us going until then though.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I guess you could argue that the rescue attempt wasn’t going particularly smoothly, and when Leia did get involved she did somewhat whip them into shape, or at least held her own and the events were more or less an over the top rendition of that. You have to admit, who pushes Chewie down the shaft is a pretty minor change, and I don’t think it’s quite worth that much outrage. The elevator shaft is a slightly different case, but I guess I see it this way. The short was meant to advertise Leia. In the words of the Thick of It, a British political satire show:
“I sell the apples. If you want me to sell the apples I will sell the apples, and tell everyone they’re great. However, if you want me to sell the oranges then I’ll tell everyone that, you know what, the apples are shit, guys, they’re shit.”. Perhaps an extreme example, but that’s what I’d say is the basic gist. Probably not exonerating them, but I’d say the blame lies more with marketing then ‘SJW fanaticism’

I think the ‘who pushes Chewie down the shaft’ debate all stems from that fact that Chewie is Han’s best mate, not Leia’s, and Chewie is used to Han yelling at him and shoving him into things. Remember the scene where Luke tries to put the cuffs on Chewie and he growls at him, only calming down when Han says it’s OK. Leia on the other hand has never met Chewie before, and if they hadn’t been in such a desperate situation as they were, it would have been highly likely that Chewie would have growled at her too if she tried to force him to do something. Also Leia is notably physically weaker than Han - would she be able to shove a 7-foot Wookiee down a relatively small hole in a reactor shaft without help? I’m pretty sceptical on whether she would be able to.

Perhaps I’m misremembering, but when these films came out, I seem to remember you guys all saying that you really enjoyed The Last Jedi, but now you seem to all hate it due to ‘SJW Nazi Communist Burn Kathleen Kennedy Stick Rian Johnson’s head in a pike fanaticism’ (obviously an exaggeration). What changed? Sure some of the casting an messages perhaps seemed a bit forced, but if you ignore fan rage, it seems to be having a positive impact on the community in terms of diversity. Would it be preferable if Rey was a man, or if Rose was American? I don’t mean to suggest you are racist sexist or anything - far from it - but you seem to be ranting about SJWs and that sort of thing, while also complaining about being a Marie Sue and such. Now to me, the SJW part of it would be that she is female, while the characterisation would be more down to script writing. That the two go together is a bit of a coincidence in my view. Now if it’s one or the other then that’s fine, but you seem to be talking about them as if it’s one and the same. That’s partly what I don’t get.

I’m not hating on the Last Jedi as a whole myself. Indeed I still think it’s a lot better than 7. However I do hate on some stupid moments of the film like Leia flying in space purely to ‘honour’ Carrie Fisher and replacing key characters like Ackbar with ones that (in my view) are questionable individuals (Holdo comes to mind here). Rose I don’t mind that much, I like how they tried to do her up as not being hero-material (being a bit pudgy and not wearing sexy outfits) and the idea that you don’t have to be a hot brunette to be a Star Wars heroine, but I’d still say she’s a bit meh. Also I prefer Jar Jar to her anyway so anything to try and direct flak away from Jar Jar really.

 

[ravagekitteh]

By the way, sorry for turning everything sour again! It seems whenever I open my gob things seem to suddenly get more tense and pointed, so sorry for that!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I guess you could argue that the rescue attempt wasn’t going particularly smoothly, and when Leia did get involved she did somewhat whip them into shape, or at least held her own and the events were more or less an over the top rendition of that. You have to admit, who pushes Chewie down the shaft is a pretty minor change, and I don’t think it’s quite worth that much outrage. The elevator shaft is a slightly different case, but I guess I see it this way. The short was meant to advertise Leia.

I don't like the way in which they portray Luke. That isn't the way he behaved in the OT death star rescue/escape scene. So it isn't as much the fact that they gave Leia a boost (although it was a bit much) but rather the way they turned Luke into a bumbling sidekick (and he is the main protagonist of the OT).

In the OT, all the characters came out looking good. They don't have the shit on one character to promote another one.

In the words of the Thick of It, a British political satire show:
“I sell the apples. If you want me to sell the apples I will sell the apples, and tell everyone they’re great. However, if you want me to sell the oranges then I’ll tell everyone that, you know what, the apples are shit, guys, they’re shit.”. Perhaps an extreme example, but that’s what I’d say is the basic gist. Probably not exonerating them, but I’d say the blame lies more with marketing then ‘SJW fanaticism’

To hijack your idea, in this case I think Disney is selling feminism. So they are telling everyone [repeatedly, ad nauseam] that women are pretty much infallible and men are shit.

Of course I am not gathering all of this from the single 1-2 minute short clip. I always try to consider the whole picture; meaning all the material that Disney has released (movies, shows, marketing) since they took over, as well as all the commentary released by the creators and management. If this clip was the first thing they had released after buying Lucasfilm I would have looked past it. But a pattern has clearly emerged and they have played their hand. They have burned through the "benefit of the doubt" that I had given them at the onset of the sequel trilogy. Each subsequent infraction garners a greater and greater response.

Perhaps I’m misremembering, but when these films came out, I seem to remember you guys all saying that you really enjoyed The Last Jedi

You remember correctly. As I've stated before, I actually liked TLJ on first viewing, but I like it less and less with each subsequent viewing. I wanted to like the film, which is evident in all my posts leading up to the film (and there were MANY of them). It took a little while and an additional viewing or two to really come to grips with it. Also a couple of other things work against the film as I watched it multiple times:

• the scenes/parts that were boring upon first viewing (obvious offender being Canto Bight) become absolutely agonizing to sit through when re-watching them (or cringe worthy in the case of the Marry Poppins Leia scene)
• the scenes that were entertaining due to nothing more than shock/surprise value (Snoke dying, Luke being a force projection) lose their luster once they are known, while the negative aspects of it become more apparent (Snoke was an interesting villain and Kylo can't really fill his shoes for ep. IX), (we never really got to see Luke become the Jedi we all imagined he would become, and now he died for no real reason [ala Padme dying of sadness]).
• the inclusion of boring useless characters (Holdo and Rose) becomes more and more obvious when re-watched
• the political agenda of Disney becomes more obvious as you review the movie as well as when additional content is released (see the point about the "whole picture" I made in the paragraph above)
• the wasted potential of what could be great characters (Finn, Poe, Phasma) becomes more apparent when the movie is watched for a third or forth time
• the lore breaking plot point (flying the ship into Snoke's capital ship at hyperspeed) becomes more aggravating as one considers and discusses it with others. It is a beautiful and powerful scene when you first watch it, but once you consider what it does to the canon it becomes a major liability.

it seems to be having a positive impact on the community in terms of diversity

I don't care about a diversity checklist. Make great characters for the sake of great characters and I don't care what gender or ethnicity they are from. As for fan diversity, Star Wars has been loved by people from all over the world and by both men and women.

Would it be preferable if Rey was a man

Nope, her being a woman is just fine. Look at great strong female characters such as Ellen Ripley from Alien or Sarah Connor from Terminator 2.

The problem with Rey is that she is a Mary Sue. Everything comes to her too easily. She rarely fails and seems to learn everything at an impossible rate. She succeeds where she shouldn't. I want to see the protagonist of a movie suffer, fail and overcome difficulty. If a character is "perfect" from the start, then all the intrigue disappears.

Rey is like a video game character with all the cheat codes enabled. Compare her to the struggles and failures that Luke had to endure.

or if Rose was American

It comes down to the fact that she is a tremendously boring character that not only does not add anything meaningful to the film but actually takes away from it. If she were an American bombshell, this would still be the case. The fact that her casting was likely the result of a diversity checklist only worsens what was already and impossibly bad situation.

A well written Asian character that is included for the sake of good story telling would be welcome.

By the way, sorry for turning everything sour again! It seems whenever I open my gob things seem to suddenly get more tense and pointed, so sorry for that!

It does make for some interesting conversation!

 

[Aginor]

Just for the record:
Despite agreeing with some of the above points, I still like both sequel movies, and for example I do not think Rey is a Mary Sue (a tag too quickly applied these days IMO) or at least not nearly as bad as some might say.

I might make a more in depth post about it tomorrow. Not now though, I have to go to sleep.