AoS Does anyone else have games that go this badly?

[Axquirix]

Game setup; 500pts + one hero up to 150pts
Players; six, split into three teams of two. Seraphon & Wanderers, LoNagash & Nighthaunt, Tzeentch & Moon Clan Grots.
Objectives; A series of treasure chests. Securing one gives you a relic on a roll of 6+ that will be useable in the next battle. Empty chests give +1 to all future chest rolls for all players.

Seraphon List
150PT HERO Saurus Sunblood. Warlord: Thickly Scaled Hide, Relic: Ghyrstrike.
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur.
10 Saurus Warriors.
5 Saurus Knights.
2 Salamanders.

Outcome
Turn one: Get charged by six fanatics who kill the Carnosaur and half of the warriors before dying to the Sunblood's retaliation. Secure a chest that turns out to be empty.
Turn two: Head towards centre objective that has five squigs, a Moonclan shaman, and three Screamers of Tzeentch with a relic on it. Knights break away to attack Grave Guard who are giving the Wanderers trouble and also have a relic.

• Salamanders shoot at the squigs and miss.
• Knights charge the Grave Guard, Warriors charge far enough to get around behind the Screamers, Sunblood charges the Shaman.
• Knights kill one Grave Guard and take 5 wounds in return.
• Sunblood takes six mortal from the Shaman's Blade of Judgement before killing one squig due to splitting attacks (hoping they would explode and damage the Screamers) and then dying to the squigs, one of whom will later explode but too far away from anything else to hurt due to pile-in.
• Warriors go down to just the champion before getting to attack. Champion achieves nothing.

Turn three; Keldrec and the Nighthaunt arrive in the middle objective, kill everything, and steal the relic there. Salamanders shoot at fleeing Grave Guard and miss. Knight pursue and are all slain by intervening vampire.

Total achievement; Six fanatics and one squig killed. The one Grave Guard came back.

So yeah, that was an utter waste of my time that I was skeptical about getting into in the first place for exactly this reason. Suggestions from people there basically go along the lines of "Well, why aren't you fielding a 200+ point unit that can't defend itself (Engine of the Gods, Slann Starmaster) in a 500 point game? You could be fielding infinite skinks! (twenty a turn from turn two, still too low number to achieve anything)."

This marks the fifth game I have fielded my Carnosaur in. He's killed a half-dead Doomwheel and three Skryre acolytes in ever. This time he was mostly there to give the Sunblood +2 attacks with Ghyrstrike and he didn't even get to do that.

 

[Deed525]

Surely you might have known the gobbos would be hiding fanatics ;D

Probably don’t send your biggest threat into them lol, he’s probably done ok if not for them
Maybe tough damage dealers like kroxigor would have worked better (skaven/undead and gobbos) chaos less so maybe.

Razordons might also be better - lots of attacks for big groups of squishy troops and retaliation on charges (when holding objectives) also pretty cheap at 4 for 160 isn’t bad.

I agree with the slaan/EoTg - just not enough time to summon, but the steg isn’t too bad in combat, he might also summon up a unit of 20 but could also dish out some mortal wounds to those around him, so not too bad a consideration.

 

[Axquirix]

Surely you might have known the gobbos would be hiding fanatics ;D

Probably don’t send your biggest threat into them lol, he’s probably done ok if not for them
Maybe tough damage dealers like kroxigor would have worked better (skaven/undead and gobbos) chaos less so maybe.

Razordons might also be better - lots of attacks for big groups of squishy troops and retaliation on charges (when holding objectives) also pretty cheap at 4 for 160 isn’t bad.

I agree with the slaan/EoTg - just not enough time to summon, but the steg isn’t too bad in combat, he might also summon up a unit of 20 but could also dish out some mortal wounds to those around him, so not too bad a consideration.

You seem to believe that the Carnosaur got to move first. I had him in preparation for the Tzeentchians, hoping that I'd burn down the gobbos with the Salamanders. Didn't happen, of course.

Krox I have one unassembled and don't really want to buy more until suitable proxies exist (what I wouldn't give for Woogity to release his models files by any means...) but Razors I have been theorycrafting with - being able top drop them in for six summon points as well means I could use them as disposable anti-chargers.

 

[Aginor]

To answer your question:
Yes I have had such games. Probably everyone had that. It happens.

As for why....

For starters: there is no balance in 500 points games.
Armies that require synergies to work (like ours), armies that rely on their expensive heroes, and most horde armies outright suck at 500 points, while elite armies and armies that can heal/regenerate/summon are vastly better.

Table size is also a factor. Often the table is tiny in 500pt games, which makes ranged units a lot worse.

Luck is way more important than strategy at that game size.
A few bad dice rolls can determine if you kill everything and win, or get completely overwhelmed.

Lastly there is the list.
- You had Knights, a pretty mediocre unit, which is of great use for a powerful meta bataillon in 2000+ points games, and decent in their Firelance bataillon, or when buffed by a Scar Veteran.
- You had Saurus Warriors, a unit that pretty much only works in units of 40 models. I like them but in units of 10 they suck.
- You did the right thing choosing the Sunnlood, which is a great Saurus hero and gave you a bit of synergy, But probably not enough.
- Oldblood is good, you just had bad luck there.
- Salamanders are good against elite units, but they only have one attack each, that makes them not very reliable. I favour Razordons over them in most games. especially when you don't have Handlers. They are a good investment for the future though, when summoned/teleported to the right spot they can be really effective.

So yeah, at that point level I think it is very hard to make Saurus work at all.
Especially since you faced stuff like Grave Guard (Death is pretty strong right now, I have those guys myself).

So don't be sad, once you play bigger games your chances will increase dramatically.

 

[Tokek]

To answer your question:
Yes I have had such games. Probably everyone had that. It happens.

As for why....

For starters: there is no balance in 500 points games.
Armies that require synergies to work (like ours), armies that rely on their expensive heroes, and most horde armies outright suck at 500 points, while elite armies and armies that can heal/regenerate/summon are vastly better.

Table size is also a factor. Often the table is tiny in 500pt games, which makes ranged units a lot worse.

Luck is way more important than strategy at that game size.
A few bad dice rolls can determine if you kill everything and win, or get completely overwhelmed.

Lastly there is the list.
- You had Knights, a pretty mediocre unit, which is of great use for a powerful meta bataillon in 2000+ points games, and decent in their Firelance bataillon, or when buffed by a Scar Veteran.
- You had Saurus Warriors, a unit that pretty much only works in units of 40 models. I like them but in units of 10 they suck.
- You did the right thing choosing the Sunnlood, which is a great Saurus hero and gave you a bit of synergy, But probably not enough.
- Oldblood is good, you just had bad luck there.
- Salamanders are good against elite units, but they only have one attack each, that makes them not very reliable. I favour Razordons over them in most games. especially when you don't have Handlers. They are a good investment for the future though, when summoned/teleported to the right spot they can be really effective.

So yeah, at that point level I think it is very hard to make Saurus work at all.
Especially since you faced stuff like Grave Guard (Death is pretty strong right now, I have those guys myself).

So don't be sad, once you play bigger games your chances will increase dramatically.

After a couple of 500 point games today I would agree with a lot of what Aginor says. 500 point games can swing on quite small things and at this low points level there may not be a way back. I would not feel bad about losing small games, really the trick is to play lots of them so that one individual game that swings on a couple of dice can be seen in better context.

I actually think that the Saurus Knight / Scar Vet synergy is one of the ones which works OK for us at 500 points which is why I run that in my list. It is not amazing but really nothing is at this low points level and you can really surprise someone if you can hold on for a couple of turns to bank a few CP before you pile in.

And Razordons are crazy good. I have never had them let me down in a game yet when you consider just how cheap they are. Honestly if you want a stupidly brutal 500 point list just load up on Razordons and see how much all your opponents hate you. They are reasonably tough for their points, they fight pretty well, they move fast and their shooting is brutal against anything outside of 2+ saves (and can work even against that if you get in close). If only they were not so expensive in real money.

 

[Axquirix]

To answer your question:
Yes I have had such games. Probably everyone had that. It happens.

As for why....

For starters: there is no balance in 500 points games.
Armies that require synergies to work (like ours), armies that rely on their expensive heroes, and most horde armies outright suck at 500 points, while elite armies and armies that can heal/regenerate/summon are vastly better.

Table size is also a factor. Often the table is tiny in 500pt games, which makes ranged units a lot worse.

Luck is way more important than strategy at that game size.
A few bad dice rolls can determine if you kill everything and win, or get completely overwhelmed.

Lastly there is the list.
- You had Knights, a pretty mediocre unit, which is of great use for a powerful meta bataillon in 2000+ points games, and decent in their Firelance bataillon, or when buffed by a Scar Veteran.
- You had Saurus Warriors, a unit that pretty much only works in units of 40 models. I like them but in units of 10 they suck.
- You did the right thing choosing the Sunnlood, which is a great Saurus hero and gave you a bit of synergy, But probably not enough.
- Oldblood is good, you just had bad luck there.
- Salamanders are good against elite units, but they only have one attack each, that makes them not very reliable. I favour Razordons over them in most games. especially when you don't have Handlers. They are a good investment for the future though, when summoned/teleported to the right spot they can be really effective.

So yeah, at that point level I think it is very hard to make Saurus work at all.
Especially since you faced stuff like Grave Guard (Death is pretty strong right now, I have those guys myself).

So don't be sad, once you play bigger games your chances will increase dramatically.

After a couple of 500 point games today I would agree with a lot of what Aginor says. 500 point games can swing on quite small things and at this low points level there may not be a way back. I would not feel bad about losing small games, really the trick is to play lots of them so that one individual game that swings on a couple of dice can be seen in better context.

I actually think that the Saurus Knight / Scar Vet synergy is one of the ones which works OK for us at 500 points which is why I run that in my list. It is not amazing but really nothing is at this low points level and you can really surprise someone if you can hold on for a couple of turns to bank a few CP before you pile in.

And Razordons are crazy good. I have never had them let me down in a game yet when you consider just how cheap they are. Honestly if you want a stupidly brutal 500 point list just load up on Razordons and see how much all your opponents hate you. They are reasonably tough for their points, they fight pretty well, they move fast and their shooting is brutal against anything outside of 2+ saves (and can work even against that if you get in close). If only they were not so expensive in real money.

It just seems a bit weird to me that lore-wise, Seraphon are all about huge numbers of Saurus with everything else as auxiliary, and yet they seem to actually be pretty awful. Even with the new summoning, having to amass 18 conjuration points just to put down 20 of them seems really high, and other than the Sunclaw battalion nothing seems to really help them out in a synergy-focussed army. Couple that with everyone's attention immediately going to anything big you put down (see the Carnosaur being killed turn 1 in a suicide attack, and similar things happening whenever I've played any variant of Stegadon) and it's a bit easy to get tabled.

Good to see suggestions for things that aren't Kroak or Ripperdactyls, though. I'm considering using a Slann & EotG combo (just the one, mind) to pull in disposable Terradons for repeat bombing runs, along with dropping in Razordons to key points as charge defense. Not that fielding such is much of an option at 500pts, usually.

The follow-up game next week involves everyone who escaped with a relic (the two death players) trying to escape through a Realmgate while being pursued by the people who lost and a horde of beastmen. Given that turning to attack a Slann&EotG combo would be pretty safe behind all those servants of Chaos and Death have no shooting, repeat bombing runs might be just the trick...

 

[Aginor]

I wish Saurus had the ability like Zombie Hordes to merge smaller units to large ones. That would be awesome.

As for the synergies though: Warriors directly profit in one way or the other from synergies with
- Oldblood on foot
- Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur
- Scar-Veteran on Cold One
- Astrolith Bearer
- Sunblood
- Sunclaw Starhost
- Bloodclaw Starhost
- Dracothions Tail
- Fangs of Sotek
- Slann
- Skink Starpriest
- Skink Priest

That's a lot actually.
And many of those synergies stack.
Just look at this:
40 Saurus Warriors in a Sunclaw buffed by a Scar-Vet on Cold one, an Oldblood on foot, a Starpriest, Priest and a Sunblood have this
- two more attacks with their weapons
- rend -1 on their weapons
- one more attack with their bite
- reroll charge rolls of 1
- reroll hit rolls of 1
- reroll wound rolls of 1
- enemy has -1 to hit against them
- reroll saves
- their bite attacks (remember each Saurus has two now) deal double damage on a 6+

If you also play a Slann you can use a constellation and/or spells to further buff them.

 

[Axquirix]

I wish Saurus had the ability like Zombie Hordes to merge smaller units to large ones. That would be awesome.

As for the synergies though: Warriors directly profit in one way or the other from synergies with
- Oldblood on foot
- Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur
- Scar-Veteran on Cold One
- Astrolith Bearer
- Sunblood
- Sunclaw Starhost
- Bloodclaw Starhost
- Dracothions Tail
- Fangs of Sotek
- Slann
- Skink Starpriest
- Skink Priest

That's a lot actually.
And many of those synergies stack.
Just look at this:
40 Saurus Warriors in a Sunclaw buffed by a Scar-Vet on Cold one, an Oldblood on foot, a Starpriest, Priest and a Sunblood have this
- two more attacks with their weapons
- rend -1 on their weapons
- one more attack with their bite
- reroll charge rolls of 1
- reroll hit rolls of 1
- reroll wound rolls of 1
- enemy has -1 to hit against them
- reroll saves
- their bite attacks (remember each Saurus has two now) deal double damage on a 6+

If you also play a Slann you can use a constellation and/or spells to further buff them.

Sunclaw + Oldblood + Priest is one of the things I'm looking at for larger games, probably running 2 40-man units with the heroes in the middle since the Oldblood and, with Priestly Trappings, the Priest both affect multiple units. Also, that's something I've never been clear on; a lot of people here have talked about battalions in the past as if the entire bonus is lost the moment any unit of the battalion dies. Is that actually true, because it seems pretty ridiculous? It's about the only reason I'd shy away from a Sunclaw (other than points cost vs a Firelance) due to how fragile Warriors can be unless they're all 20+ model units.

 

[Aginor]

Just a silly little list demonstrating how to make a list for 2k with supercharged Saurus:


Allegiance: Seraphon

Leaders
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Trait: Great Rememberer
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
Saurus Sunblood (120)
- Artefact: Blade of Realities
Skink Starpriest (80)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
Skink Priest (80)
- Priestly Trappings
Saurus Oldblood (120)
- Warblade

Battleline
20 x Saurus Warriors (200)
- Clubs
40 x Saurus Warriors (360)
- Spears
40 x Saurus Warriors (360)
- Spears

Battalions
Sunclaw Starhost (130)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 135

a lot of people here have talked about battalions in the past as if the entire bonus is lost the moment any unit of the battalion dies. Is that actually true, because it seems pretty ridiculous?

Completely ridiculous and not true.

 

[Tokek]

It just seems a bit weird to me that lore-wise, Seraphon are all about huge numbers of Saurus with everything else as auxiliary, and yet they seem to actually be pretty awful. Even with the new summoning, having to amass 18 conjuration points just to put down 20 of them seems really high, and other than the Sunclaw battalion nothing seems to really help them out in a synergy-focussed army. Couple that with everyone's attention immediately going to anything big you put down (see the Carnosaur being killed turn 1 in a suicide attack, and similar things happening whenever I've played any variant of Stegadon) and it's a bit easy to get tabled.

Good to see suggestions for things that aren't Kroak or Ripperdactyls, though. I'm considering using a Slann & EotG combo (just the one, mind) to pull in disposable Terradons for repeat bombing runs, along with dropping in Razordons to key points as charge defense. Not that fielding such is much of an option at 500pts, usually.

The follow-up game next week involves everyone who escaped with a relic (the two death players) trying to escape through a Realmgate while being pursued by the people who lost and a horde of beastmen. Given that turning to attack a Slann&EotG combo would be pretty safe behind all those servants of Chaos and Death have no shooting, repeat bombing runs might be just the trick...

In smaller games I never feel you can really get the hordes of saurus warriors on the table to either match the fluff or really work synergistically. They do work well in larger games when you can put them down in blocks of 40 with the right battalion and hero support. Big blocks of saurus warriors feel to me like the main body of the army has arrived - which is not where smaller games are at.

From a fluff perspective I am quite happy that smaller advance units of saurus knights or skinks - presumably scouting ahead of a main force - work quite well both thematically and in the game. The theme for my list felt quite natural; a fast moving recon force built around cavalry (who are admittedly only fast when beating those drums) with support. It also has pretty OK synergy. In my second game I really felt that unit vs unit the death stuff was stronger but list vs list it was a really even match due to the greater depth of synergy.

 

[Axquirix]

Just a silly little list demonstrating how to make a list for 2k with supercharged Saurus:


Allegiance: Seraphon

Leaders
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Trait: Great Rememberer
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
Saurus Sunblood (120)
- Artefact: Blade of Realities
Skink Starpriest (80)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
Skink Priest (80)
- Priestly Trappings
Saurus Oldblood (120)
- Warblade

Battleline
20 x Saurus Warriors (200)
- Clubs
40 x Saurus Warriors (360)
- Spears
40 x Saurus Warriors (360)
- Spears

Battalions
Sunclaw Starhost (130)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 135




Completely ridiculous and not true.

Glad to know that, makes the more fragile battalions a lot more appealing. I'd be a little hesitant to play a 2000pt game without bringing some of the bigger toys or more support (Bastilodon or other artillery, Astrolith etc) but against a similarly marching-melee-blocks army such as Death I think that would work well.

In smaller games I never feel you can really get the hordes of saurus warriors on the table to either match the fluff or really work synergistically. They do work well in larger games when you can put them down in blocks of 40 with the right battalion and hero support. Big blocks of saurus warriors feel to me like the main body of the army has arrived - which is not where smaller games are at.

From a fluff perspective I am quite happy that smaller advance units of saurus knights or skinks - presumably scouting ahead of a main force - work quite well both thematically and in the game. The theme for my list felt quite natural; a fast moving recon force built around cavalry (who are admittedly only fast when beating those drums) with support. It also has pretty OK synergy. In my second game I really felt that unit vs unit the death stuff was stronger but list vs list it was a really even match due to the greater depth of synergy.

That's a good way of looking at it, not thought of that before! Firelance & Starpriest has been a go-to for me when games have been big enough; it's fast, reasonably tough given everything is a multiwound model, hits reasonably hard when buffed and is only a little over 600pts. In the few 750pts games I've been in I normally throw in Skinks or a Salamander for some ranged support, but then the knights have to slow down to let them get off an opening volley. Skinks work well as a distraction unit too, though, given their Wary Fioghters ability.