AoS Seraphon nerfs

[Crowsfoot]

@Canas

it's in the designers commentary

Q: Do things that increase the range of a caster's spells also apply to the distance at which endless spell can be set up from the caster?

A:No, Things that increase the range of a spell's effects do not apply to the distance at which endless spell can be set up. By the same token, things that allow you to measure the range of a spell from a different location to the caster cannot be used when setting up an endless spell.

 

[Canas]

@Canas

it's in the designers commentary

Q: Do things that increase the range of a caster's spells also apply to the distance at which endless spell can be set up from the caster?

A:No, Things that increase the range of a spell's effects do not apply to the distance at which endless spell can be set up. By the same token, things that allow you to measure the range of a spell from a different location to the caster cannot be used when setting up an endless spell.

sigh… So. Many. Freaking. Pdfs…..

As for that question itself, well that's just kind of awefull. Not to mention it just begs the question, why? What in the world do they hope to achieve with this?

On another note; it says the kills done by the endless spells don't count towards battleshock. Why is that and isn't that inconsistent with literally every other method of slaying models?

 

[Aginor]

As for that question itself, well that's just kind of awefull. Not to mention it just begs the question, why? What in the world do they hope to achieve with this?

I think Morathi is to blame. I heard someone say she has an ability that is kinda broken in combination with that.


As for the battleshock:
It is dumb IMO because now you have to track who died by the spells and who didn't. Sucks. Why should units be OK with losing comrades to a giant gaping maw or them being turned to purple Crystals but be terrified when a Carnosaur roars or someone is shot?

 

[Canas]

I think Morathi is to blame. I heard someone say she has an ability that is kinda broken in combination with that.

Just F.A.Q. morathi then, not endless spells, GW has the annoying tendency of nerfing everything when one specific situation leads to abuse…

Also, feels like it's another model similar to nagash that just has an ability that's so much more powerfull than the norm that by definition anything that is balanced for the norm is gonna be stupidly OP on her without additional restrictions. Same like nagash

As for the battleshock:
It is dumb IMO because now you have to track who died by the spells and who didn't. Sucks. Why should units be OK with losing comrades to a giant gaping maw or them being turned to purple Crystals but be terrified when a Carnosaur roars or someone is shot?

I'm really curious as to what the purpose is supposed to be of it though. Endless spells don't seem powerfull enough that they can cause signifcantly more of a route than other attacks would.

 

[Aginor]

Endless spells don't seem powerfull enough that they can cause signifcantly more of a route than other attacks would.

Yeah it is weird. Even the worst case (Purple Sun vs 60 Grots) isn't that severe...

 

[Killer Angel]

it's a neat ability, just feels misplaced with the skinks (and most importantly the damn starseer himself) lacking command traits.

the loss of the skink chief and the lack of command trait for who should be our most powerful caster after the Slann, irks me to no end...

 

[Canas]

Yeah it is weird. Even the worst case (Purple Sun vs 60 Grots) isn't that severe...

the only thing I can think of is that they're afraid that when you hit multiple things it'l be too powerfull. But really if you manage to hit 3-4 units with your purple sun it'l be devestating regardless, not suffering from battleshock isn't going to massivly help you then.

plus, that's really just another reason to stop having magic do mortal wound and give it its own damage and defensive mechanic so it can still be armor piercing without it immeadiatly wiping out everything it touches when you give it more potential than D3.

 

[Killer Angel]

I'm actually half tempted to try Kroak for comet and then forego 3 spells for summoning each turn.

 

[Canas]

I'm actually half tempted to try Kroak for comet and then forego 3 spells for summoning each turn.

meh, it makes for a rather expensive glorified slann, would be acceptable if he wasn't nearly double the cost.

It's a shame that you can't take relics on him (yet another rule that feels like it's only there to prevent certain specific cases of abuse, but ends up hitting quite a lot of heroes who'd still be perfectly balanced with relics…). Otherwise I'd try taking a defensive relic and a defensive spell from one of the realms. And send him to go slaughter some stuff in melee. At 2d6/3+/3+/-1/1 he's a fairly decent threat in melee, his dead for unnumerable ages will help keep him alive, throw on a phantasmal guardian and mystic shield and he should be able to take on most enemies just make sure you don't send him to fight a bloodthirster or something in melee. and whatever spell slots he has left he can use for some nukes or generating summoning points. It solves his range issues at least. Plus this way his melee attacks actually do something. Seriously why does a slann, even if it is kroak, have a decent melee profile, their entire stick involves staying away from the front-lines as much as possible.

 

[Aginor]

Talking about that...
My tactics mind is already racing again.
I am trying to grasp how much worse Kroak actually got in my use case.
In a synergy heavy army like ours that's not that easy to tell. Right now for me it comes down to Celestial Deliverance.
I never used more than one Astrolith Bearer, I keep it near my Slanns anyway (so no big change there)
The biggest thing that changed is Celestial deliverance.
The area of effect is smaller, but still decent, especially with the Astrolith and/or a BWV. Still huge then.
Two of the three casting attempts are as hard as they were before, one is a lot harder.
What hurts the damage most is the limitation to three units per cast.
The 2+ to do damage at all is a bit silly but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't change that much. It takes away reliability though, which can be a good or bad thing. I mean: in the end AoS is a game about rolling dice. I keep complaining about abilities of some armies being too reliable, and I totally see that it was an issue with Kroak.

Now, that command ability change basically means the same as above: rerolls make things more reliable, and the ability was very unspecific so you could use the reroll for anything. CPs are more specific, and command abilities are usually buffs. So basically I see the change as a shift from self-buffing (probably what most people did with the rerolls in many cases, using them for Kroak himself) to buffing other units, the new version can be quite strong if you bring heroes with nicely stackable command abilities, or for example to use the advance command on several units to gain more mobility. It is also part of the nerf for EotG (the reroll came in very handy there) and seems to buff Saurus (Saurus Heroes have command abilities, Skinks don't) so it might contribute in making Saurus lists more viable.

And if we compare Kroak to his pre-AoS2 self, he doesn't look too bad IMO. He just looks bad compared to the last few weeks, because he was too frickin awesome.

 

[Nefertem]

My problem is that he's still 450ish points. He's not a melee monster but needs to be close to the enemy. So you'll automatically be in dispel range. And in danger to get caught in close combat. As the difficulty of celestial deliverance increased, in addition to the 2+ for less damage, it's nowhere near sure to get it cast, and get something killed reliably. For 450 points.....and bwv. And astrolith. He'll have a hard time against others in his points level.
Of course it's difficult to compare him in a vacuum with other army's big game, but I think he got only a role as sidekick. Sure he was too good recently, but that's just too much in the wrong direction. As others already have pointed out, they could have balanced him by taking his range, or reducing his damage. The only thing I actually can see is him generating cps and summoning points.
Well, just my 2 cents.

 

[Wazz]

One use for the oodles of command points is to use the Scar-Vet on Carnos command ability a bunch on a unit of Saurus Knights so any sixes to hit will generate X extra attacks to hopefully get you more mortals, or at least force more saves. Could be kinda nice.

 

[Boshea]

Whilst I don't agree with the Starseer changing this way without a points decrease (he's absolutely not worth 200 points), my Saurus-heavy lists have a lot of uses for Command Points. Dumping 4 CP on a Scar Vet on Carnosaur or Scar Vet on Cold One can yield some pretty insane results. For example, dropping the Scar Vet on Carnosaur buff on a 40-strong Saurus Warrior unit 4 times will grant you an extra 80 attacks, and that's without rerolls. Drop the Scar Vet on Cold One buff 4 times on a 15 strong unit of Saurus Knights, and you're looking at 90 Cold One bites, rerolling 1's. I've already used CP dumps to good effect in my games so far, and I'm eagerly looking for more ways to get CP into my lists (which is why I'm annoyed the Bloodclaw Starhost STILL hasn't been properly updated for 2.0).

Yeah I agree he has a decent spot in a Blood claw list. Points may be debatable since he still has Curse of Fates to alter Space Time rolls. We really need an overhaul on making a Skink or Saurus your General since Slann is essential an auto choice now. I get that they probably put the General clause in to prevent multiple Slann powering out summons, and make you guard the slann or risk losing all those points. However its now made Saurus and Skink Generals pointless due to weak command bonuses and losing access to summoning. Even at equivalent points now, the Slann massively outclasses the Carno Old-blood.

 

[Canas]

Yeah I agree he has a decent spot in a Blood claw list. Points may be debatable since he still has Curse of Fates to alter Space Time rolls. We really need an overhaul on making a Skink or Saurus your General since Slann is essential an auto choice now. I get that they probably put the General clause in to prevent multiple Slann powering out summons, and make you guard the slann or risk losing all those points. However its now made Saurus and Skink Generals pointless due to weak command bonuses and losing access to summoning. Even at equivalent points now, the Slann massively outclasses the Carno Old-blood.

they could've just said "only 1 slann can sacrifice his spells".

Or they could've not put the entire mechanic on 1 model thus all but ensuring having multiple of that model would be problematic...

 

[Aginor]

they could've just said "only 1 slann can sacrifice his spells".

Or they could've not put the entire mechanic on 1 model thus all but ensuring having multiple of that model would be problematic...

The topic of "Choice of generals for Seraphon" also bothers me a bit.
The current rules make picking any other general except a Slann kinda pointless, since summoning is so important for us, why would anyone play a list without the Slann being general? And even if you don't play with Summoning, then maybe you want to play magic heavy. So you want to cast through Skinks and use their spells with the Slann. He needs to be general. And even if you play a melee heavy list the Slann is probably the best choice for the general, because of Great Rememberer.

So the only lists you would ever play without a Slann would be very small games I guess.
(And even there the Slann might be worth it, since summoning can be very strong in small games, depending on table size. Imagine a 500pt game with good amounts of terrain and a reasonably big table. Put the Slann into cover and summon Skinks each round. Just too many bodies on the table for a 500 point army to kill.)

 

[PJetski]

Kroak nerf is a huge hit. Probably won't be viable any more in competitive play unless people start using the Realm of Battle rules and every wizard learns 7 new spells each game.
Astrolith Bearer is a big hit. Having to keep wizards near the banner limits your positioning options.
Starseer change is very interesting, but I'm not sure he is worth 200 points. You can generate 5 extra command points in a game, but the possibility of giving your enemy command points is a big risk. You could just buy 4 command points and have them immediately when the game start. If you need a wizard then you could bring a Starpriest and buy 2 guaranteed command points for 180.
Ripperdactyls are... about the same? Before 2.0 they could generate 2 hits per attack, now they generate 1-3 hits per attack. The average is a bit higher, and the max damage is higher, but now they can swing low.
Engine of the Gods summoning terradons that could immediately move and drop rocks was a dumb mechanic and I'm glad it was nerfed. Hopefully this makes stacking EOTG significantly worse because I hate the idea of people bringing 4x EOTG lists.

The topic of "Choice of generals for Seraphon" also bothers me a bit.
The current rules make picking any other general except a Slann kinda pointless, since summoning is so important for us, why would anyone play a list without the Slann being general?

A 260pt wizard with no spell lore, only 7 wounds, that sacrifices his 3 spells to summon 60pt worth of skinks every turn is not very useful. Seraphon summoning has a high opportunity cost and vulnerable to being rushed down.
This could just be my experience but competitive games are often determined in the first 2-3 rounds and don't often make it to round 5, so the value of summoning usually doesn't factor into tournament play.

Slann make very strong generals but they are limited by the fact that we don't have a spell lore. Mystic Shield and Arcane Bolt are both much worse than they were before, and you can only cast one endless spell per wizard per turn. I think the main uses of a Slann are to take Vast Intellect, to boost the EOTG, to fill out battalions, 3 unbinds from anywhere, and give you the option to pivot your gameplay to a summoning attrition style.

 

[Aginor]

unless people start using the Realm of Battle rules and every wizard learns 7 new spells each game.

Good point, that might be interesting.

Astrolith Bearer is a big hit. Having to keep wizards near the banner limits your positioning options.

Not sure that is too severe in actual games. The bubble is still fairly big.

Starseer change is very interesting, but I'm not sure he is worth 200 points.

Agree. I tend to say he isn't worth 200. 140-160 would be more fitting IMO.

Ripperdactyls are... about the same? Before 2.0 they could generate 2 hits per attack, now they generate 1-3 hits per attack. The average is a bit higher, and the max damage is higher, but now they can swing low.

Mathematically they are a bit better, yeah. I think they are about right now.

Engine of the Gods summoning terradons that could immediately move and drop rocks was a dumb mechanic and I'm glad it was nerfed. Hopefully this makes stacking EOTG significantly worse because I hate the idea of people bringing 4x EOTG lists.

It was kinda fun while it lasted, but yeah, agree on that one.

 

[Canas]

Not sure that is too severe in actual games. The bubble is still fairly big.

It creates issues when you want split your forces and have a wizad on both forces. As long as you only have 1 wizard you're not going to notice it though. But for multiple wizards it's a rather massive nerf.

Kroak nerf is a huge hit. Probably won't be viable any more in competitive play unless people start using the Realm of Battle rules and every wizard learns 7 new spells each game.

to be honest that's kind of the only hope Kroak has left. With his base stats and some of the better defensive spells it might prop him up enough to be able to go wreck some face in melee alongside throwing some comets and celesstial deliverance around for fire-support. He's not going to take on say a bloodthirster, but it doesn't seem like a terrible idea at least. Plus, at least it'd make for an increadibly versatile model. Spells for fire-support, dead for innumerable ages for survivability and a halfway decent melee profile for ripping apart medium-tier troops.

 

[Aginor]

I think I would like to use the Slanns as buffing machines, the main problem we had until now (and depending on the Realm still have) is that if you don't have spells to choose from they are kinda lame.

 

[Crowsfoot]

The topic of "Choice of generals for Seraphon" also bothers me a bit.
The current rules make picking any other general except a Slann kinda pointless, since summoning is so important for us, why would anyone play a list without the Slann being general? And even if you don't play with Summoning, then maybe you want to play magic heavy. So you want to cast through Skinks and use their spells with the Slann. He needs to be general. And even if you play a melee heavy list the Slann is probably the best choice for the general, because of Great Rememberer.

So the only lists you would ever play without a Slann would be very small games I guess.
(And even there the Slann might be worth it, since summoning can be very strong in small games, depending on table size. Imagine a 500pt game with good amounts of terrain and a reasonably big table. Put the Slann into cover and summon Skinks each round. Just too many bodies on the table for a 500 point army to kill.)

I dunno without a Slann you would use EotG to summon but you need a Slann to make that more likely so catch 22,

I feel atm like if you play Seraphon your being pushed into taking a Slann/Kroak, AB, BWV.

Summoning is strong but having too auto include a Slann really limits your list building, don't get me wrong I always use him anyway cause it's a beautiful model.