AoS Stacking CP - could it make Knights good?

[Tokek]

I am still on a quest to make Saurus Knights good and I wondered if the ability to stack command abilities with CP might give them enough punch to be good.

So the basic idea would be to take a large unit of them and on a turn when they are in a position to charge use 3 (or possibly more) CP to really beef up their number of attacks with a Scar Vet on Cold One. Add in a Serpent Staff and maybe an Astrolith Bearer (but they are re-rolling 1's already so that may be just garnish) for a really substantial number of attacks that mostly hit.

15 Knights would then have 16 Spear attacks, 15 bite and shield attacks and 75 cold one bite attacks with 3 CP. The unit itself is 270 points (cheaper than 6 rippers) and the Scar Vet is another 100 but could be usefully adding another 9 attacks so they are not lost points. At that number of attacks pretty much anything vulnerable to non-rending damage will go away quite fast.

By its nature I think this only works as a turn 1 attack in a Firelance Starhost but I think it might also work pretty well as a second wave of attack behind a Shadowstrike set of Rippers. Knights reliably move 14" if they are not attacking so they can position quite well for a turn 2 charge, if you take the Cogs (as I probably would) they move 18" on turn 1 and then 9" plus a charge with extra 2" on turn 2.

Compared with Ripperdactyls they are less compact and less hard hitting on that location with the toad but they are also less limited by the toad positioning and they are a lot more durable with 30 wounds vs 18. They lose a lot less offensive output on the opponents turn which combined with their greater durability makes them a lot less appealing to counter-charge.

 

[Aginor]

I am still on a quest to make Saurus Knights good and I wondered if the ability to stack command abilities with CP might give them enough punch to be good.

So the basic idea would be to take a large unit of them and on a turn when they are in a position to charge use 3 (or possibly more) CP to really beef up their number of attacks with a Scar Vet on Cold One. Add in a Serpent Staff and maybe an Astrolith Bearer (but they are re-rolling 1's already so that may be just garnish) for a really substantial number of attacks that mostly hit.

15 Knights would then have 16 Spear attacks, 15 bite and shield attacks and 75 cold one bite attacks with 3 CP. The unit itself is 270 points (cheaper than 6 rippers) and the Scar Vet is another 100 but could be usefully adding another 9 attacks so they are not lost points. At that number of attacks pretty much anything vulnerable to non-rending damage will go away quite fast.

By its nature I think this only works as a turn 1 attack in a Firelance Starhost but I think it might also work pretty well as a second wave of attack behind a Shadowstrike set of Rippers. Knights reliably move 14" if they are not attacking so they can position quite well for a turn 2 charge, if you take the Cogs (as I probably would) they move 18" on turn 1 and then 9" plus a charge with extra 2" on turn 2.

Compared with Ripperdactyls they are less compact and less hard hitting on that location with the toad but they are also less limited by the toad positioning and they are a lot more durable with 30 wounds vs 18. They lose a lot less offensive output on the opponents turn which combined with their greater durability makes them a lot less appealing to counter-charge.

I like the idea as I am a fan of Cavalry myself, so I really want to like Knights.

In the last edition I had the idea for a list I called Draco-Shadowlance (Draco with Firelance + Shadowstrike) for exactly 2k but that one is now 80 points more expensive so it doesn't work anymore.

My current idea is based on getting all the possible buffs, it looks like this:
Dracothions Tail
Slann
Firelance with ScarVet on Cold One and 15+5+5 Knights.
Starpriest for Serpent Staff
Skink Priest for save rerolls
Oldblood on foot for pushing a unit 3"
Cogs
Some Skinks or so to bubble wrap the Slann.


With the push from the Oldblood and buffs from the Priest and the ScarVet, the Cogs and the Slann's Constellation (hopefully) the
Knights should be able to move 12" and have +6 on charge (rerollable).

Starlight, mystic shield and the Priest buff means the enemy has -2 to hit on them and they reroll saves.
You could also cast curse of fates on them to get another +1 on one roll per phase.

Edit: (since you get three Command points in round one you can use them to have the Slann, the ScarVet and the Oldblood all use their command abilities on that big Knight unit)

 

[Erdrick]

Slann
Firelance with ScarVet on Cold One and 15+5+5 Knights.
Starpriest for Serpent Staff
Skink Priest for save rerolls

I'm also looking at building a list like this. Question about the SVonCO - does his ability reroll _all_ charge rolls or just charge rolls of 1? It's not clear to me from the text.

 

[Nart]

COScarVet gives reroll of 1's for hit and charge. I find him a better hero for Firelance, because of Knights poor to-hit value. His CA buffs all saurus in 8" not just Kningts or just 1 unit. With new way of how command abilities work, he is auto-include in any saurus list. Firelance, IMO, didn't become better, while Knights on themselves did. It gives +3 run and charge, but marching\new spells can give the same bonus. +1 mortal wound on 6's to wound is still good, yet still random. I doubt it worth 150 points. It gives +1 CP and artefact, from the other hand, and one of the cheaper and easier starhosts, if taken for this purpose. I player 3x5 knights last friday against SCE, and it didn't go well - SCE made all saves against "venom" bites and despite triple Carno Vet command abilities stack, they missed a lot of attacks. And not a single mortal wound from lances. Their double move, however, allowed me to take midfield points turn 1 and score them for 2 turns, which made the game.

I want to try 15x Knights next time, without starhost, but with both scarvets and priest nearby.

I see Knight-heavy list like this:

Allegiance: Seraphon
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Trait: Vast Intellect
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (240)
- War Spear
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One (100)
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
Skink Starpriest (80)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Saurus Oldblood (120)
- Suntooth Maul
15 x Saurus Knights (270)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (90)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (90)
- Lances
Bastiladon (280)
Firelance Starhost (150)
Dracothion's Tail (80)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101


With Dracotion's tail 15 knights, scarvets and old blood are in safety in reserve and appear when needed. Thanks too formation rule and cogs, knights will get +5 for their charge (+6 with right constellation). So you need 4+ rerolling 1's to make a successful charge. Oldblood can use his CA to reform them and gives even more chances to charge. He can give reroll 1's to wound, if you leave a couple of knights behind, or if he charges too. Slann casts all needed spells depending on the realm (Aqshi is the best) and scarvets use command abilities, Starpriest gives Venom. If you teleport Slann closer to enemy lines first. it even can be used as alpha-strike, but more risky.

Aetherquartz Brooch gives more CP to use for Knights, other artefacts can be changed. I took Rectrices on COVet because he is most important of three heroes. Lens gives protection from magic MW and Carno has the largest base which is good for aura abilities.

 

[Boshea]

My problem with the ColdVet is that most of his bonuses can be gotten other ways. Slann gives army wide reroll to hit on 1s, and an Astrolith or Sunblood give straight rerolls. His only unique ability is giving the mounts more bites which also benefots from serpent staff

 

[skipperyoss]

Seeing as we could do this with the Bloodclaw starhost already no. I don't think this will make Knights good, knights need more then synergy buffs. They need tweaks to their warscrolls along with most Saurus units. Otherwise you just have a road bump that takes 4 turns to die and is "calvary"

 

[Nart]

My problem with the ColdVet is that most of his bonuses can be gotten other ways. Slann gives army wide reroll to hit on 1s, and an Astrolith or Sunblood give straight rerolls. His only unique ability is giving the mounts more bites which also benefots from serpent staff

Actually, reroll 1's to-hit is the only bonus that can be replicated. Slann can use another constellation - +1 to charges or casting rolls, so bonuses don't overlap. Yes, it can be better for skinks and monsters, but in saurus-heavy lists ScarVet can do this on his own. Astro has limited range and Sunblood is better only when all saurus attack the same unit.

But I find other bonuses more important. Rerolling 1's for charges combined with Starhost bonus, Cogs and +1 to-charge constellation gives almost autocharge from 9-10". And my favorite - +1 bite for Cold Ones. With two battalions one scarvet can give up to +3 attacks turn 1 to ALL Knight units (even more if Brooch works).

Seeing as we could do this with the Bloodclaw starhost already no. I don't think this will make Knights good, knights need more then synergy buffs. They need tweaks to their warscrolls along with most Saurus units. Otherwise you just have a road bump that takes 4 turns to die and is "calvary"

Not exactly - Bloodclaw gives only one Command Abilitiy from a Hero, while now the same hero can use one CA any number of times. What is more important - new spells can buff or protect knights.

I still don't think, that they are top tier unit, but with new spells and CA stacking they got better. Not anti-everything steamroller, but can be dedicated horde killer (50 bite attacks from 10 knights turn 1 - yes, please!).

 

[skipperyoss]

Not exactly - Bloodclaw gives only one Command Abilitiy from a Hero, while now the same hero can use one CA any number of times. What is more important - new spells can buff or protect knights.

I still don't think, that they are top tier unit, but with new spells and CA stacking they got better. Not anti-everything steamroller, but can be dedicated horde killer (50 bite attacks from 10 knights turn 1 - yes, please!).

You could take 3 Scar Vet Cold ones and do what you are all attempting to say. You also won't get 50 bites, it has a 1" range and they have a big base.

 

[Tokek]

You could take 3 Scar Vet Cold ones and do what you are all attempting to say. You also won't get 50 bites, it has a 1" range and they have a big base.

I find getting 10 Knights into 1" is a lot easier than getting big blocks of Saurus Warriors but YMMV.

I am quite content if Knights are not top-tier so long as they are not awful and I think my summary of the responses here is that they are not awful. If we get a FAQ that restricts command ability stacking then they drop down in utility again but we will have to wait and see what GW do with that.

 

[Nart]

3 scarvet are 300 points, while 1 scarvet is 100 points + no points for starhost itself. These means more knights and support units.
Yes, its hard to get all knights in 1'' at once, but as a line they can strike several units.

 

[Slann Master Flash]

Scar vet on carno and a unit of knights I'm finding fearsome. Extra attacks on 6s lances then doing mortals on 6s and serpent staff gives dbl damage on bites on 6s. All this with rerolling hits for astrolithAttack with the knights first. They then attack the carno which can soak the damage better. Then the carno mops up. Just need good positioning which can be done by teleporting (give slann great remembered) or holding back for a turn 2 charge. You then also get the added battle shock bomb from the carno. Giving him retorcise also adds survivability. If it dies it dies you can summon another attack wave of something strong by turn 2. I'm also using shadow strike with rippers for that kill something turn 1 alpha.