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Last person to make a post wins

Aginor said:
Well the first time was against a severely wounded Kylo (emotionally and physically, he had killed his father and had been shot by Chewie) and he still had the upper hand during most of that fight. He also got stronger in the meantime
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I understand the justifications and even agree with them to a degree, but he still lost to someone with no training (as far as we know). If it happened this one time, it could be more easily justified, but now it has happened twice.

Aginor said:
The second fight was also pretty even and he didn't really want to kill her for parts of that fight IIRC. They seemed pretty evenly strong to me. I also think that's what the movie wanted to imply, based on Luke's assessment of their powers and them ripping the Lightsaber in half.
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The problem is that even being evenly strong isn't justified. Kylo is trained, and Rey is not. She hasn't had to train, endure and grow to overcome him. The reason why I say that she won that one is that when Kylo wakes up Rey is already long gone. That means that she could have easily killed him if she wished to do so. That puts Rey up 2-0.

Personalty-wise I really like Rey, she is probably my favourite new character. However, I heard a description of her that completely illustrates my criticisms of her, she is like starting a new video game character with all the cheat codes activated. She feels too powerful, and never has to learn or grow to earn her powers. Contrast that to Luke in the original trilogy who essentially rose up from nothing; learning and suffering along the way.
 
"she is like starting a new video game character with all the cheat codes activated. She feels too powerful, and never has to learn or grow to earn her powers. Contrast that to Luke in the original trilogy who essentially rose up from nothing; learning and suffering along the way."

To expound on your analogy, it's less cheat codes, and more grinding the first stage for like 18 years. :meh:
 
Maybe there is too much good in Kylo and it hampers him.
 
pendrake said:
Maybe there is too much good in Kylo and it hampers him.
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He is undoubtedly conflicted. I agree that it is weakening his connection to the dark side. That could be the primary source of his weakness, but unless he finds a fix to it quickly, he just doesn't stand up as an adequate antagonist to Rey.
 
Good point.
I think another factor is that Snoke proooobably didn't train him as much as he would have been able to, to make sure he doesn't become a threat to him. (and he still underestimated him. I liked the look on his face when he finally realized it. Hubris really is a huge weakness of the dark side, we see it all the time. Dooku, Ventress, the Inquisitors, Palpatine and now Snoke. And those are only the canon ones.)

....also I guess we should talk about it in the Star Wars thread. I kinda dislike that we have the Star Wars discussion spread over so many threads.
 
Aginor said:
Good point.
I think another factor is that Snoke proooobably didn't train him as much as he would have been able to, to make sure he doesn't become a threat to him. (and he still underestimated him. I liked the look on his face when he finally realized it. Hubris really is a huge weakness of the dark side, we see it all the time. Dooku, Ventress, the Inquisitors, Palpatine and now Snoke. And those are only the canon ones.)
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As master manipulator, I don't think Snoke could hold a candle to Palpatine.
 
Still he didn't see Vader turn on him and throw him down the shaft. He died approximately as quickly as Snoke did. He was SO sure about himself.
 
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Killer Angel said:
As master manipulator, I don't think Snoke could hold a candle to Palpatine.
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I agree, Palpatine played the whole galaxy for fools. Unless Snoke is somehow not dead and still has a major role to play, he is massively inferior to Palpatine.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
[
I agree, Palpatine played the whole galaxy for fools. Unless Snoke is somehow not dead and still has a major role to play, he is massively inferior to Palpatine.
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True. But the reasons for both of their downfalls (in Palpatine's case that's even literally! :D ) are the same IMO (or at least very similar).
 
Aginor said:
Hubris really is a huge weakness of the dark side
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Which is why you should read the Darth Bane trilogy. He has a very different viewpoint on the Sith. Canonically though, you are correct.

Aginor said:
True. But the reasons for both of their downfalls (in Palpatine's case that's even literally! :D ) are the same IMO (or at least very similar).
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I'd agree with that.
 
T minus 1 hour till I go flailing like a madman through 5 different errands
 
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