Fantasy vs AoS

[Lord-Marcus]

Meaning?

There are pdf's out there, as well as ebay

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Considering T9A is in flux and was dropped from the GT circut because of it, yeah.

Are the guys at T9A doing another edition change? I'd imagine that being dropped from the GT circuit would be quite a big deal for a game like T9A.

Doesn't mean I'm not creating lists in all systems and using dice to represent killed models in ICR systems

Be careful.... you know what they say... jack of all trades, but a master of none

There are pdf's out there

There are indeed if one is so inclined.

 

[Crowsfoot]

That could be true and accounts for the lack of KoW activity on this forum. I believe that @Crowsfoot dabbled in it for a time.


I wonder how Kings of War fares against T9A in terms of popularity... or even against WFB 8th edition as it stands today (it obviously has no chance of matching it in its prime).

I did yes but we gave up and tbh we rarely play AOS but I am trying to get Archie into it.

We are yet to play 40k again this is one I think I'm better letting go.

 

[Killer Angel]

As to kings of war: yes it is very good. Do you have any questions?

I could out of curiosity, but it would be wasted time.
Literally no one in my area is into KoW... we play AoS and, even if I wanted to move to nearby gaming groups, at most I would find 9th age.

 

[Lord-Marcus]

I could out of curiosity, but it would be wasted time.
Literally no one in my area is into KoW... we play AoS and, even if I wanted to move to nearby gaming groups, at most I would find 9th age.

And what area would that be?

 

[Killer Angel]

And what area would that be?

I live in the red part. To find KoW means to lose 2 hours and an half (to go and come back).
9th age is half an hour.
AoS it's 5 minutes afoot.

 

[Lord-Marcus]

Gotcha

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

to be honest that seems to be the main issue with warhammer, be it AoS, 40K or fantasy, is that GW seems to prefer chaos over any other faction. And I don't just mean that they regularly get some OP unit, with 4 completly fleshed out sub-factions it's no wonder at least one of em is a top-tier army with some OP nonsense at any point in time. But also in terms of fluff. Chaos Always wins. The imperium of men in 40K only has the most phyrric of victories, if any at all. Idem with fantasy, the entirity of fantasy fluff can be summerized as "The polar gates exploded and it was one long drawn out war untill finally the last Slann kroaks (get it? get it? I'm hilarious! ) and the planet got consumed by chaos as the other races are incapable and/or traitorous twats...".

What makes it worse is that there's also rarely any real victory over chaos. Grimdark is fine, but if the outcome is set in stone and there is absolutly no light in the dark it just gets boring and predictable.. There's no hope, no redemption, just a slow inevitable fall into chaos.. It doesn't help that every aspect of chaos is completly and utterly corrupted beyond insanity. Which means there's no hope for redemption. But more importantly, with how insane they are there's no hope of them ever being able to cooperated with anyone uncorrupted.

It'd be much more interesting if say Magnus after being corrupted would've said "screw this, i'm not joining freaking horus" and instead had build his own little empire in a corner of the universe. Then after the heresy he and whatever remained of the imperium come together they agree on an uneasy truce and from then on they occasionally fight some wars occasionally join hands to stop Abbadon on one of his crusades etc. But instead we just get him corrupted, the end (although ahriman was/is? still trying to free his marines I think?).

anyways tl;dr: GW likes chaos too much...

Agreed, although Tyranids did win a notable victory against Daemons of Chaos - it was called the Fall of Shadowbrink.

 

[Canas]

It would be interesting to know how closely related the cancellation of WFB (+ the introduction of the End Times) and the creation of AoS actually was. By which I mean what took place behind the scenes. When did they decide to cancel WFB (because they would have known about it years in advance) and when was the decision to create AoS made? Was AoS made to fill the void left by the departure of WFB or was WFB scraped to make way for AoS? (a what came first, the chicken or the egg scenario)

I'd suspect someone decided WFB wasn't selling enough and decided to cancel it. Then someone decided it might be a good idea to write an "end" to WFB as they can make one last sell with books and what have you and/or give it a worthy send-off depending on if you ask sales or someone who gave a shit about the franchise. They started writing, halfway through someone decided that they did want to save some of the fantasy stuff and designs so they had to rewrite stuff to Ensure something "survives". End-times happen. AoS is released. They realize that they should've put more resources on AoS, and probably less on the end-times, GHB and such start arriving to fix some of the flaws. Or at least, that sounds plausible.

Surely you mean other than Space Marines and Fantasy Space Marines (Stormcast)? There is nothing that GW likes more than them.

Space marines and sigmarines are a close second. But I think in their case it's more that those designs just sell well and not so much that anyone at GW reaaaaally likes em. I mean, just look at the amount of available factions that have space marines; there's what, 8 space marine chapters + 4 chaos marines + the sigmarines. And that's just the factions that they sell. I haven't even looked at all the chapters you can say your marine is from, and frequently even has some minor rules added to it...

That's an interesting point, but I can see where GW is coming from. Warhammer/40k is an open-ended unfinished book. During any story, your heroes must be constantly under threat. Where loss seems all but inevitable and where any strides you make only seems to result in further disaster. It is only at the end of a story that the hero prevails and thwarts the bad guy(s).

That said, I can see your point as well. In such a large story universe, surely you can give the good guys some legitimate victories to maintain some nuance and balance. I think the best tactic would be to let the good guys win some important victories but keep them constantly under the ever present threat of annihilation.

A story also has highs and lows. Take the lord of the rings, they win at helm's deep to give a random example. The big bad evil isn't defeated but it's a significant step towards it. Still plenty of danger left and the overall war is still pretty hopeless. But at least they're making some progress.

And anyway, just imagine 40K without chaos, or at least without black crusades. There's still plenty of evils left in the word to attack the good guys. Plus, without an essentially all-powerfull faction like chaos in play you can actually have some flux and story progression. The dark eldar rape some tau worlds, the tau somehow convert an ork waagh to the greater good, an Ork empire beats a tyranid hivefleet into submission and manage to capture the queen and use her to produce and endless supply of ever more dangerous toys to fight, another hivefleet eats some eldar, the eldar steal some artifact from the necrons that allows em to save more souls from slaanesh, the necrons conquer some imperial worlds, the imperium steal an artifact from the dark eldar that helps em ressurect vulkan. Tada, they all achieved meaningfull goals (for their respective faction) while the overall balance of power didn't really shift.. However, since we have chaos hanging around in the eye of terror this'd all be meaningless as there's still infinite demons sitting around waiting for judgement day, and it's been firmly established that nothing can stop judgement day as nothing can be done to close the eye... A similar point can be made for WFB without storms of chaos, noone can remove the warp-nonsens on the poles. Not even the slann managed that... AoS is so far the best in this aspect, but that's mostly due to the small amount of fluff. ÁoS is basicly at the 1 victory that gets achieved over chaos in all versions, in 40K it's the defeat of the heresy, in WFB the creation of the vortex, in AoS it's the sigmarines showing up and freeing some bits and pieces of the realms.

Anyway, tl;dr: they have plenty of factions that are a threat towards the "good" guys (regardless of who you want to be the "good" guys) and plenty of goals for the "good" guys to achieve, so they could easily rotate the factions that are in the ascendend at any given time. The only real issue is chaos being essentially all-powerfull, with infinite manpower and an unasailable stronghold while also being utterly corrupted as a faction and hellbend on the destruction of everything.. There's no reasoning with chaos, no bargaining, no stopping. There's just a slow inevitable crawl until you finally get overwhelmed by whatever nonsense it spits out next...

 

[Canas]

Agreed, although Tyranids did win a notable victory against Daemons of Chaos - it was called the Fall of Shadowbrink.

Did they actually achieve something with it? Or they just eat a random chaos world/system which chaos as whole will barely notice as the eye of terror is still spitting out black crusades and other nonsense at the exact same rate as it Always has?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Did they actually achieve something with it? Or they just eat a random chaos world/system which chaos as whole will barely notice as the eye of terror is still spitting out black crusades and other nonsense at the exact same rate as it Always has?

Well they destroyed a Great Unclean One and a Keeper of Secrets completely and killed thousands of lesser Daemons. The story revolves around the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights are on Shadowbrink and having daily services and prayers to stop a chaos-tainted device called the Maelstrom Cradle from opening and releasing thousands of Daemons into the world. Then the Tyranids show up and eat all the Grey Knights and ignore the chaos-tainted device, which now opens up and releases a load of Daemons because there are no more Grey Knights around to stop it from opening. The Daemons at first start slaughtering Tyranids because the Tyranids are unprepared for their assault. They then attempt to devour the Daemons in the same way as they devoured the Grey Knights using feeder organisms, seeing them as prey, but the Daemons have no trouble killing off the feeder beasts. The Hive Mind then starts to view the Daemons not as prey but as rival predators endangering the food source, so it changes tactic and produces gunbeasts and fast moving melee beasts like Trygons and this works much better and the Daemons start getting slaughtered, the rate at which they weaken increasing due to the fact that alien ichor rather than blood flowed for Khorne, the Hive Mind adapted to Nurgle's diseases, no real souls were being fed to Slaanesh and they were too difficult for Tzeentch to predict. The remaining Daemons start to flee back into the Warp, but the Great Unclean One is Warp-blasted apart by Zoanthropes and the Keeper of Secrets is overwhelmed by Tyranids. The Lord of Change ran away ages ago when he saw things were not going as his master predicted and the Bloodthirster is last seen fighting several Trygons as he is dragged back into the infernal device, where I believe he also died, but then I'm a Tyranid player so I would naturally want the Trygons to win. Have a look at it on Lexicanum or another 40K wiki. It was first introduced in the 6th Edition Tyranid book and probably my favourite of the lore sections because it is one the Tyranids actually win.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I agree that the white dwarf rules update was not needed, especially when considering how quickly it was supplanted by their 8th edition hardcover army book. I could be mistaken, but I thought that the time between the white dwarf and the army book was only a few months. I think the WoC only needed the army book update, and if that freed up the time to update Bretonnia or Beastmen that would have been awesome. My biggest regret in 8th edition was that Bretonnia, Beastmen and Skaven never got their books and that a final round of FAQs were not released. (oh and the poor balance between cannons and monsters, but that is a different matter)

This is true - The White dwarf rules update was in November 2012, and the new army book was in February 2013. GW could easily have either given WoC their book in November and then updated Bretonnia, Beastmen or Skaven in February or vice versa. They did the same with VC and Daemons of Chaos - VC got a White Dwarf update in August 2011 and their army book in January 2012, while Daemons got an update in August 2012 and their book in March 2013.

First off, the Warshrine was introduced during 7th edition (it didn't have a model, but had rules) and was actually nerfed in 8th edition. Under its 7th edition rules you could set up a system where you could almost guarantee getting 3+ ward save Chosen.

As for the Slaughterbrute, it is pretty much the weakest unit in the entire army book. It is an EXTREMELY sub-par unit. No competitive list would ever feature them. The Slaughterbrute was literally the WoC version of the Troglodon. If you think that the Slaughterbrute made the WoC more OP, then I would argue you don't understand WoC or Warhammer as a whole. I have a massive WoC army but I don't even own a single Slaughterbrute.

Well I can think of other things that are more OP, such as Skullcrushers, Mutalith, Gorebeast Chariot, Chosen...

Firstly, I have no idea how powerful Chaos is in AoS. Secondly, I couldn't care less about the power level of Chaos in AoS. Lastly, I dislike the inclusion of a monster in a Dwarf army for fluff/thematic and army variation reasons. I like the fact that armies look, act and play differently. That's what makes Warhammer interesting to me. I don't want each and every army to have the same stock set of units, because in such a world, armies would only vary from one another in the most superficial of terms.

Well WoC seemed to have some of everything. Magic, Monsters, Chariots, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry, Artillery. Everything except ranged infantry. Dwarfs on the other hand had no cavalry, monsters or wizards. Even in AoS they still have no Cavalry or Wizards, and Fyreslayers have no artillery. They can ally with Ironweld Arsenal to give them artillery I imagine, but otherwise don't have artillery.

 

[Killer Angel]

Agreed, although Tyranids did win a notable victory against Daemons of Chaos - it was called the Fall of Shadowbrink.

Well, THIS seems fitting. And epic.

 

[HeirofCarnage]

Well they destroyed a Great Unclean One and a Keeper of Secrets completely and killed thousands of lesser Daemons. The story revolves around the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights are on Shadowbrink and having daily services and prayers to stop a chaos-tainted device called the Maelstrom Cradle from opening and releasing thousands of Daemons into the world. Then the Tyranids show up and eat all the Grey Knights and ignore the chaos-tainted device, which now opens up and releases a load of Daemons because there are no more Grey Knights around to stop it from opening. The Daemons at first start slaughtering Tyranids because the Tyranids are unprepared for their assault. They then attempt to devour the Daemons in the same way as they devoured the Grey Knights using feeder organisms, seeing them as prey, but the Daemons have no trouble killing off the feeder beasts. The Hive Mind then starts to view the Daemons not as prey but as rival predators endangering the food source, so it changes tactic and produces gunbeasts and fast moving melee beasts like Trygons and this works much better and the Daemons start getting slaughtered, the rate at which they weaken increasing due to the fact that alien ichor rather than blood flowed for Khorne, the Hive Mind adapted to Nurgle's diseases, no real souls were being fed to Slaanesh and they were too difficult for Tzeentch to predict. The remaining Daemons start to flee back into the Warp, but the Great Unclean One is Warp-blasted apart by Zoanthropes and the Keeper of Secrets is overwhelmed by Tyranids. The Lord of Change ran away ages ago when he saw things were not going as his master predicted and the Bloodthirster is last seen fighting several Trygons as he is dragged back into the infernal device, where I believe he also died, but then I'm a Tyranid player so I would naturally want the Trygons to win. Have a look at it on Lexicanum or another 40K wiki. It was first introduced in the 6th Edition Tyranid book and probably my favourite of the lore sections because it is one the Tyranids actually win.

The problem is, all these demons are not dead. (At least by AoS lore they aren't) They just "returned" if you will, to the warp. They will be back. That is why I don't really like the lore behind the demons. It seems so pointless to fight them.

 

[Killer Angel]

The problem is, all these demons are not dead. (At least by AoS lore they aren't) They just "returned" if you will, to the warp. They will be back. That is why I don't really like the lore behind the demons. It seems so pointless to fight them.

Basically this.
It would be nearly pointless against an "infinite" enemy, but with a returning one it's even worse

 

[Aginor]

I wouldn't say it is pointless to fight them. If you don't fight them they'll kill you. If you defend yourself, fighting them over and over, it is far from perfect, but you will live.
Also: I don't know how fast they respawn in the realm of chaos. Maybe if you kill a Great Unclean One it takes them years to resapwn. Might be worth it to snipe them out so you can more easily kill their army that is now without leadership.

 

[Crowsfoot]

I wouldn't say it is pointless to fight them. If you don't fight them they'll kill you. If you defend yourself, fighting them over and over, it is far from perfect, but you will live.
Also: I don't know how fast they respawn in the realm of chaos. Maybe if you kill a Great Unclean One it takes them years to resapwn. Might be worth it to snipe them out so you can more easily kill their army that is now without leadership.

WHAT??

KILL A GUO are you mad, love Papa Nurgle......

 

[Lord-Marcus]

I wouldn't say it is pointless to fight them. If you don't fight them they'll kill you. If you defend yourself, fighting them over and over, it is far from perfect, but you will live.
Also: I don't know how fast they respawn in the realm of chaos. Maybe if you kill a Great Unclean One it takes them years to resapwn. Might be worth it to snipe them out so you can more easily kill their army that is now without leadership.

To be fair, this is the point of chaos. It is an ever present threat. Without it, the stormcast would win, the realms unified, and noblebright would be a thing.

With chaos, there is conflict everywhere

 

[Aginor]

WHAT??

KILL A GUO are you mad, love Papa Nurgle......

Wouldn't Papa Nurgle love that circle of decay and death and rebirth (the GUO is going to come back!)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well I can think of other things that are more OP, such as Skullcrushers, Mutalith, Gorebeast Chariot, Chosen...

• the Mutalith is not OP, there are many other monsters that are far better from several different armies and monsters themselves are not OP in the 8th edition meta (outside of a few exceptions)
• Chosen are not OP, you're better off taking Warriors out of core
• Gorebeast Chariot is definitely OP
• Skullcrushers are OP AS HELL