Tutorial Dinosaurs in the Desert, a Lizardmen vs Tomb Kings Tactica

[Acorn Lord]

I would rate the stalkers at XXXX. In the last week I have played 8 games against tomb kings and my opponent took them all but one time. Even though math says stalkers shouldn't do that great, they do great. Even though our monsters are protected by skinks, they die easily. The stalkers seem to work just like sallies, they either misfire or hit just right (and by just right I mean 20-30 hits). And with 20-30 hits it's easy to roll 5 sixes. They are also good at sniping solo slanns. The shooting is magic attacks and they are quite good at hitting just right. The only ways I have found of dealing with them is magic and a unit of skirmishers.

 

[airjamy]

I would rate the stalkers at XXXX. In the last week I have played 8 games against tomb kings and my opponent took them all but one time. Even though math says stalkers shouldn't do that great, they do great. Even though our monsters are protected by skinks, they die easily. The stalkers seem to work just like sallies, they either misfire or hit just right (and by just right I mean 20-30 hits). And with 20-30 hits it's easy to roll 5 sixes. They are also good at sniping solo slanns. The shooting is magic attacks and they are quite good at hitting just right. The only ways I have found of dealing with them is magic and a unit of skirmishers.

How many of them did they run in a unit? 20-30 hits seems like a lot, i would like to see averages on that. I guess you could run 6, but that makes It Came From Below even more precarious for them. Or do they just deploy them and shuffle them forwards? Once again, this is the only unit in the book i have never played with or against, so this is the hardest one for me to review. I did do a lot of math on them, and i cannot really see how they can that dangerous.

 

[Acorn Lord]

How many of them did they run in a unit? 20-30 hits seems like a lot, i would like to see averages on that. I guess you could run 6, but that makes It Came From Below even more precarious for them. Or do they just deploy them and shuffle them forwards? Once again, this is the only unit in the book i have never played with or against, so this is the hardest one for me to review. I did do a lot of math on them, and i cannot really see how they can that dangerous.

I may have been over exaggerating on the 20-30. It was probably more like 12-18. My opponent usually had 2-3 units of 3. But even with just 12-18 hits it is easy to roll lots of 6s.

 

[airjamy]

I may have been over exaggerating on the 20-30. It was probably more like 12-18. My opponent usually had 2-3 units of 3. But even with just 12-18 hits it is easy to roll lots of 6s.

Hm yeah ok, sounded like that as well. If you have a unit of 3, you average on 5.5x3=16.5 hits. That equals 16.5/6= 2.75 wounds. It is pretty annoying, and only really strong against the solo scarvet and the solo slann. If they start shooting at TG or other Sauri, you just kinda laugh it off and are ok with it. Let's get back the ratings i made for units:

XXX: Moderate. These are the mainstay units in a TK list that will have to do at least some damage to mitigate their points cost, and often enough they are more than ready to do just that in a battle against LM. From this threat level onwards you should note where your opponent deploys these units and react accordingly.

XXXX: Strong. Expensive, or crucial units in a TK list that are either really good at what they do or that are often part of the core of the enemy strategy.

With these calculations in mind i still think they belong in the XXX category. They are not really good at what they do ( i mean, there are other units in the game such as cannons or bolt throwers that are a lot better at character sniping, i would consider those really good at what they do) and they are not core of the enemy strategy in most armies. I do not see lists build around them like i do with the Sphinxes or Snake Surfers, and losing them is never that big a deal for the enemy. They in my eyes still belong in the XXX category as they can do some damage to mitigate their points cost and that you should keep not where your opponent deploys these guys (or more like, look at where they could pop up with It Came From Below) and react accordingly, ie, i would put my Scarvet in a unit against these guys in some cases. You could get that crazy RNG rolling 6 6s to wound killing something like a Carnosaur, but on the other end of the spectrum your opponent could also roll a lot of Missfires kiling his own dudes in the process, so i think that these extremes cancell eachother out pretty well .

Also, i am really glad that i put explanations with my ratings, ratings are pretty pointless unless they specifically mean something i guess!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

XX 2, Neru’s incantation of Protection: Augment spell that gives a unit a 5+ ward save. The boosted version of the spell gives this effect to every unit within 12’’. Fine spell for the TK for that extra cannon protection for the larger Undead Constructs and for a nice boost in combat, but as we do not have any warmachines to speak of and because there are worse spells in this lore, it might be one to ignore. Dangerous when cast on multiple combats at the same time, but that is true for every TK augment spell.

To be honest I think this spell is deserving of a XXX. It effectively negates 33% of wounds taken and that can really swing a battle. Also, as you mention, it can be bubble cast, thereby potentially swinging multiple combats. Additionally, it triggers the lore attribute. Drop in a King/Prince for WS bonus, cast this spell and all of a sudden that squishy skeleton unit isn't all that squishy.

XX 4, Usiran’s incantation of Vengeance: A hex that makes the target suffer a minus D3 to M and it treats all terrain as dangerous terrain, and it must test it every time it moves. The boosted version increases the range. A spell that is good against hordes and hordes of Skaven, and it is good to stop units from moving. It does not really stop a unit though, as it only chews of a few inches of your charge range. Often easy to ignore, is only hard to ignore when it targets very expensive units that really need to get a charge of. Has no synergy with the lore attribute.

This spell may also be a worthy candidate for a XXX rating. Spells that mess with enemy movement can be game changers. Casting this spell on large units of slow infantry (Saurus or Temple Guard) can have a huge effect. Taking D3 off of movement 4 is pretty big. While it can be ignored, I wouldn't say that it can be easily ignored. Remember that every member of the moving unit must take a dangerous terrain. Losing 1/6th of a large unit can have a pretty big effect.

XXX Sepulchral Stalkers:

With these calculations in mind i still think they belong in the XXX category. They are not really good at what they do ( i mean, there are other units in the game such as cannons or bolt throwers that are a lot better at character sniping, i would consider those really good at what they do) and they are not core of the enemy strategy in most armies.

I think you are correct in this rating. Sepulchral Stalkers can be very good, but they are also very unreliable. Some games they can be MVPs but in other games they won't even show up and give free victory points to the opposition. They are great against certain units (low initiative, high armour, expensive) but not so good against others. I don't think they are quite as dangerous as the units you listed as XXXX.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Killer Angel : I am wondering, what are your thoughts on this tactica thread? What do you agree with and what do you disagree with?

 

[Killer Angel]

Night-doubleSlann-Bringer wants my advice!

As you can easily guess, I've always looked at this tactica with attention.
The thing i like is that is well developed and supported by reasonings.

All in all, I feel almost all the evaluations are spot on...

LORDS
No doubt that LHP is ranked above TK: we are so magic dependant that a 4 lev caster is the staple of TK armies

HEROES:
the prince is golden, but he can't be equipped as a king, and a well geared king can be really hard to take. Nonetheless, I agree on xxxx
LP is spot on
the herald could well be X, but I don't want to blame the poor guy.
Necrotect on paper is nice, but tends to be killed too much quickly to give the boosts you want.

MAGIC
Yeah, I was convinced that neru's incantation rated xx wasn't doing justice to the spell. xxx without doubt. I love it.
Almost the same for Usirian's, but in a slightly lesser way.


OTHER UNITS: (core, rare, specials)

it's always difficult to rate exactly TK units: this army lacks "stand alone units".... to work properly, needs to make good use of his synergies, so also the value of the various units, depend a lot on what you are fielding.
basic example: large block of 40 archers and the ability to cast righteous smiting.
The main target for your opponent, won't necessarily be the hierophant, BUT the priest with RS.

So, to judge the effective value of units, you must always keep in mind the synergies that TKs rely upon:
light council: HLP + 3 LP and Hierotitan ('titan wins the title "kill at all costs")
Necroknights with Rahmotep: kill the master of necrotects asap.

and so on.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Night-doubleSlann-Bringer wants my advice!

My powers and affluence reside within the realms (not the AoS type of realms) of Lustria and the Chaos wastes. In the lands of Nehekhara, I am but "A bug in the swarm" while you are a mighty Sphinx Captain!

As you can easily guess, I've always looked at this tactica with attention.

I'm surprised you haven't helped lead the conversation. Or perhaps your loyalties are to the undead and you didn't want to give away their secrets to the cold-blooded hoard.

the prince is golden, but he can't be equipped as a king, and a well geared king can be really hard to take.

I've been taking a look at viable King options. From what I have gathered, the Prince is the way to go, but I can really see that WS 6 "My Will Be Done" going a long way against Elves and other WS5 elites. Plus the defensive capabilities of the King (via 100pts of magic items) is quite alluring.

I'm also keen to experiment with the Destroyer of Eternities or the Golden Death Mask of Kharnut.

the herald could well be X, but I don't want to blame the poor guy.

That poor unfortunate soul really does seem like a waste of points

Yeah, I was convinced that neru's incantation rated xx wasn't doing justice to the spell. xxx without doubt. I love it.

I actually think that it is one of the very best spells in the lore and one that is effective against all types of opponents. Depending on the gaming situation, I can see it being the best spell in the lore at certain times. An excellent defensive spell that also heals your unit and has the option to be bubbled.

Almost the same for Usirian's, but in a slightly lesser way.

Agreed!

light council: HLP + 3 LP and Hierotitan ('titan wins the title "kill at all costs")

I love the rules of the titan, but to me it seems like he would usually carry a very large bulls-eye on his back. Have you found this to be the case?

Necroknights with Rahmotep: kill the master of necrotects asap.

Do you mean running Rahmotep within a unit of Necroknights?? Wouldn't his movement completely neuter the unit... plus he wouldn't benefit from a "Look out sir" roll. I'm confused by this last point you made.


Thanks for the awesome input!

 

[Killer Angel]

I've been taking a look at viable King options. From what I have gathered, the Prince is the way to go, but I can really see that WS 6 "My Will Be Done" going a long way against Elves and other WS5 elites. Plus the defensive capabilities of the King (via 100pts of magic items) is quite alluring.

yeah, Blade of Antarhak, Glittering Scales and Dragonbane Gem work nicely, but there are really many possible options

I'm also keen to experiment with the Destroyer of Eternities or the Golden Death Mask of Kharnut.

it's risky and situational, but when it works it's a lot of fun!

I love the rules of the titan, but to me it seems like he would usually carry a very large bulls-eye on his back. Have you found this to be the case?

There's no point denying that it's a top target. However, i feel it's a very solid unit, I was used to take it AND the casket.

Do you mean running Rahmotep within a unit of Necroknights?? Wouldn't his movement completely neuter the unit... plus he wouldn't benefit from a "Look out sir" roll. I'm confused by this last point you made.

Yeah, this was my mistake. I was thinking about the fact that R. gives re-rolls to all armor saves to a construct unit... but the re-roll doesn't go away if you kill Ramhotep.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

yeah, Blade of Antarhak, Glittering Scales and Dragonbane Gem work nicely, but there are really many possible options

That does sound like an intriguing combo. I was reading about it over on the Tomb Kings of Khemri forum. No protection from death sniping though. Lots of great options though!

I'm also keen to experiment with the Destroyer of Eternities or the Golden Death Mask of Kharnut.

it's risky and situational, but when it works it's a lot of fun!

That's definitely what it looks like. Not much room left for defense... especially in the case of the DoE. Do you have any experience with the Golden Death Mask? How has it worked out for you?

There's no point denying that it's a top target. However, i feel it's a very solid unit, I was used to take it AND the casket.

Agreed. I see many instances of the Titan's use over in the TK forum. The casket of course is an absolute auto include. If I had to choose between one or the other, I'd go with the casket every time. Together however, they are even better.

Yeah, this was my mistake. I was thinking about the fact that R. gives re-rolls to all armor saves to a construct unit... but the re-roll doesn't go away if you kill Ramhotep.

That's what I love about Ramhotep... that bonus is permanent. If you can land it on a large enough Necro-knight unit I think it pretty much justifies Ramhotep's inclusion in the army, regardless if he does anything else for the remainder of the game.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lord-Marcus : any thoughts on the topic?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lord-Marcus : any thoughts on the topic?

@Lord-Marcus , friend of the Tomb Kings. You have been summoned to share your wisdom and battle experience. Let your voice be heard.

 

[Lord-Marcus]

Friend? FRIEND? I AM A TOMB KING! I've been meaning to get to this thread, I have been wailaid

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Friend? FRIEND? I AM A TOMB KING!

Then by all means, share your wisdom oh mighty one.

 

[Killer Angel]

Friend? FRIEND? I AM A TOMB KING!

Well, me and @NIGHTBRINGER are both also on Khemri Forum. Care to join there too?

 

[Killer Angel]

@NIGHTBRINGER , I suppose you are aware that the current artistic competitin on Khemri has entered the voting phase...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@NIGHTBRINGER , I suppose you are aware that the current artistic competitin on Khemri has entered the voting phase...

I was not aware. I just cast my vote (I thought yours was the best, so you got my vote! ). Looks like you are running away with it!

 

[airjamy]

I was not aware. I just cast my vote (I thought yours was the best, so you got my vote! ). Looks like you are running away with it!

Gotta love NIGHTBRINGER keeping the necromancy going. Now let me respond to some interesting feedback. It has been multiple years since i last played TK, so forgive me if i am a bit rusty, but i did play a lot of competitive 8th back in the day, so i think i will be allright.

Night-doubleSlann-Bringer wants my advice!

As you can easily guess, I've always looked at this tactica with attention.
The thing i like is that is well developed and supported by reasonings.

All in all, I feel almost all the evaluations are spot on...

LORDS
No doubt that LHP is ranked above TK: we are so magic dependant that a 4 lev caster is the staple of TK armies

HEROES:
the prince is golden, but he can't be equipped as a king, and a well geared king can be really hard to take. Nonetheless, I agree on xxxx
LP is spot on
the herald could well be X, but I don't want to blame the poor guy.
Necrotect on paper is nice, but tends to be killed too much quickly to give the boosts you want.

MAGIC
Yeah, I was convinced that neru's incantation rated xx wasn't doing justice to the spell. xxx without doubt. I love it.
Almost the same for Usirian's, but in a slightly lesser way.


OTHER UNITS: (core, rare, specials)

it's always difficult to rate exactly TK units: this army lacks "stand alone units".... to work properly, needs to make good use of his synergies, so also the value of the various units, depend a lot on what you are fielding.
basic example: large block of 40 archers and the ability to cast righteous smiting.
The main target for your opponent, won't necessarily be the hierophant, BUT the priest with RS.

So, to judge the effective value of units, you must always keep in mind the synergies that TKs rely upon:
light council: HLP + 3 LP and Hierotitan ('titan wins the title "kill at all costs")
Necroknights with Rahmotep: kill the master of necrotects asap.

and so on.

First off, nice to hear that you agree on most of the points.

On the heroes section, an X rating meant that the unit is dead, as i think it is possible to at least play around with the banner that gives a unit It Came From Below it does not completely qualify as a dead unit,, but it comes very close i suppose. Also on the XXX rating on the Necrotect, i agree with you that the model is simply to fragile to make use in. It is however important to see the combo with something like Tomb Guard. From the XXX rating onwards, i advice people to take note of where these units are deployed. Experienced players might never actually field Necrotects, but for newer players not sure of what they should look out for it playing against other less experienced players it is important to actually know that you do want to kill that Necrotect hiding in that blob of Tomb Guard. I know i got quite a few Necrotects just staying alive in my TG blobs, giving Hatred to the unit as they went, for no really good reason, so i felt it was important to point him out as an important character in some builds, even though he is not the strongest in real competitive settings.

In the magic section, yeah perhaps i rated those spell a bit to low. For me, getting of Righteous Smiting and Desiccation was always the main attraction. I found that the spells did just to little, and you were so dependent on a strong magic phase that i always felt it was important to emphasize impact-full spells. Perhaps a playstyle with even more casters and Caskets and a focus on getting just a load of spells of might have shown me more reasons why that spell was actually pretty good. It is at least something you should not ignore in the magic phase, this might be something i could change in the tactica to improve it, so thanks for your input!

Talking about this in a revisit to the olde forum really made me feel like dusting of some dinosaurs to play a game of Oldhammer, lets see if someone in my area is up for that. In my experience, the heavily nerfed nature of so many 9th Age units (skinks) made it less fun to play, it also doesn't help that fantasy basically died in my local store after AoS due to everyone having a different preference of the game they play (AoS, 8th or 9th, some went to 40K). It just decimated the play group basically, we weren't that massive to begin with. That i don't like AoS should speak for itself , even though i ofcourse totally want anyone who does like that system to have their fun with it, it is just totally not for me.

Well, so far for my musings, perhaps in the coming days i will improve the spell section of the tactica, if i find the time for it.

 

[Killer Angel]

On the heroes section, an X rating meant that the unit is dead, as i think it is possible to at least play around with the banner that gives a unit It Came From Below it does not completely qualify as a dead unit,, but it comes very close i suppose. Also on the XXX rating on the Necrotect, i agree with you that the model is simply to fragile to make use in. It is however important to see the combo with something like Tomb Guard. From the XXX rating onwards, i advice people to take note of where these units are deployed. Experienced players might never actually field Necrotects, but for newer players not sure of what they should look out for it playing against other less experienced players it is important to actually know that you do want to kill that Necrotect hiding in that blob of Tomb Guard. I know i got quite a few Necrotects just staying alive in my TG blobs, giving Hatred to the unit as they went, for no really good reason, so i felt it was important to point him out as an important character in some builds, even though he is not the strongest in real competitive settings.

Yeah, all in all I cannot disagree on Necrotect. To make a distinction between usefulness of units, based on a friendly / competitive approach, would be decisely too much.

Well, so far for my musings, perhaps in the coming days i will improve the spell section of the tactica, if i find the time for it.

That would be nice, but there's no hurry.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Gotta love NIGHTBRINGER keeping the necromancy going

This thread was definitely worth resurrecting. You've done some mighty fine work on the tactica!

i agree with you that the model is simply to fragile to make use in.

Yeah, all in all I cannot disagree on Necrotect.

What do you guys think of the Armour of Silvered Steel for the Necrotect? It makes him considerably more durable but is he too costly at that point? When you have run Necrotects in the past, what setup did you employ?