8th Ed. HELP provide a points cost for my custom TK Slann, Ra'nubis!

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Hello friends! The "mighty" NIGHTBRINGER requires your assistance!

I've created a custom character and I need your help to give him a fair points cost. The goal is to points him in such a way that he is a strong and worthwhile choice (not broken like a Throgg but far from worthless like a Chakax). One should feel confident to put him in a list because he is a powerful addition, but not guilty for fear of him being broken.

In terms of Lizardmen characters: if Chakax is a "1" and Tetto'eko is a "10" in terms of the their power level to points ratio, I'm aiming for an "8".

The context: Ra'nubis is an undead Slann to be fielded in an 8th edition WFB Tomb Kings army. He is a LORD choice.

What I ask of you (and grant you the following top hat blessings):

vote in the poll to give me a ball park figure

vote in the poll and give me an exact points value

vote in the poll, give me an exact points value and justify/rationalize the value you provided.



POINTS: ???

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Ra'nubis 4 2 3 3 4 5 2 * 9

TROOP TYPE: Infantry (Special Character)

MAGIC: Ra'nubis is a level 4 wizard. He uses spells from the Lore of Nehekhara.

SPECIAL RULES: Nehekharan Undead, Flammable, BSB, Loremaster (Lore of Nehekhara)

Grand Hierophant of Sekep: If you take Ra'nubis, he must be your army's Hierophant.

Mage Lord of the Mortuary Cult: When activating the effect of The Restless Dead lore attribute, Ra'nubis recovers D6+1 worth of models as described in the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors on page 28 instead of the usual D3+1.
(for reference)


Shield of the Old Ones: This grants Ra'nubis a 4+ ward save.

Death's Gaze: Ra'nubis does not attack normally during close combat. Instead, during each round of close combat the controlling player may choose a single enemy model in base contact with Ra'nubis. The enemy model must pass a toughness test or be slain. Only ward saves are permitted against this attack. Additionally, each time a model is slain as a result of Death's Gaze, Ra'nubis (or another friendly model within 12") instantly recovers a single Wound lost earlier in battle.

MAGIC ITEMS:

The Golden Scarabs of Ra'nubis: With but a thought from their master, the golden forms of these ancient artifacts begin to glow with life and their jeweled carapaces shimmer with forgotten magics. Within the space of a single heartbeat they flutter effortlessly across the battlefield to duteously complete their tasks.

Each golden scarab is treated as an individual magic item and each may be used only once per battle.

• Golden Scarab of the Undying: This item activates the moment Ra'nubis is to be removed as a casualty (even in response to an effect that would normally allow no save of any kind). Roll a D6; on a 1 Ra'nubis is removed as a casualty. On a 2+ Ra'nubis remains on the battlefield with a single wound remaining. Furthermore, for the duration of the current phase, Ra'nubis is immune from any harm, regardless of the source.
• Golden Scarab of the Underworld: This item allows Ra'nubis to make a shooting attack with the Sniper special rule. This attack has a range of 18" and causes D3 strength 5 hits.
• Golden Scarab of the Unbroken: This item may be used at the start of any close combat phase (friend or foe). Nominate a single friendly unit within 24" of Ra'nubis. For the duration of this turn the selected unit is exempt from the Unstable special rule.
• Golden Scarab of the Unrelenting: This item may be used at the start of any friendly phase. Ra'nubis (or another friendly model within 24") instantly recovers D3 Wounds lost earlier in battle.

Thanks in advance to all who take part. May the blessings of the top hat guide you to glory!

Not sure how many 8th edition players we have left: @Chicken Lips @n810 @Killer Angel @Lord-Marcus @Killer Angel @Krox_v.2 @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @pendrake

 

[Killer Angel]

Not sure how many 8th edition players we have left: @Chicken Lips @n810 @Killer Angel @Lord-Marcus @Killer Angel @Krox_v.2 @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

The list is short... and I even appear twice!


OK, I'll think to it.
Will you post it also on Khemri?

 

[pendrake]

...duteously...

Dutifully?

How did the TK recruit a Slann?

 

[Killer Angel]

How did the TK recruit a Slann?

We already have a Lord Kroak. Undead status comes naturally.


But yeah, it would be interesting to read a background by @NIGHTBRINGER, to justify it.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The list is short... and I even appear twice!

That is so funny... I never noticed that I placed your name on there twice. As for the list length, I'm sure there are others that I am forgetting. I just took a quick scroll through the Fantasy section of the forum and picked out a few names. If you can think of anyone else, please tag them in the thread for me!

Will you post it also on Khemri?

I may, but I find there is very little to no activity over there. I poke my head in from time to time (I actually put up an updated version of my Khalida list yesterday) but there never seems to be any activity. You're one of the only active members... but luckily you're on here as well. I do plan to put it up on the EEFL forum.

You could say that it is quiet as a tomb! (pun intended)

duteously

Dutifully?

"Dutifully" was actually the original word I had used, I just switched it out. Either or could be used!


http://www.yourdictionary.com/duteous

We already have a Lord Kroak. Undead status comes naturally.

In my backstory Ra'nubis is not a relic priest like Kroak. He is actually slain in Nehekara and is brought back to unlife via Nagash's grand spell just like the rest of the TK.

How did the TK recruit a Slann?

But yeah, it would be interesting to read a background by @NIGHTBRINGER, to justify it.

I have a rather large background story rattling around in my head. I have so much content that I could literally write an entire full blown novel on it. The other day I just wrote myself a series of bullet points highlighting the key plot point (where each bullet point could easily take up a chapter or two or three) and I ended up with a page.

I'd like to write a 1-2 page summary on it in the same style as the character bios in the 8th edition army books (although I may utilize 2 pages instead of the normal 1). The tough part will be condensing that much content into such a limited amount of wordage.

The Ra'nubis story is one part of a series of background stories that make up my own 8th edition world. Ultimately I have a tale of four very different Slanns who eventually prevent the End Times...

• Tlama'tini - The Wise, a 2nd generation and most senior Slann of the lost city of Itchtaca
• Zwei'helix - The Time Slann (complete with his very own Lore of Time... which I have almost finished!), 4th generation Slann
• Vokul'nax - The Fallen Slann, The Kin Slayer, The Demi-God - Tzeentchian Slann (a conversion that I have half started!), 3rd generation Slann
• Ra'nubis - The Rogue Slann, 5th generation Slann

Taken together, it forms the basis of why the Old World persists in my own little gaming universe. There are supplementary characters as well... some for whom I have developed rules/backgrounds/conversions.

 

[Killer Angel]

Th
In my backstory Ra'nubis is not a relic priest like Kroak. He is actually slain in Nehekara and is brought back to unlife via Nagash's grand spell just like the rest of the TK.

Interesting. I like it!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Interesting. I like it!

Thank you!

 

[pendrake]

That is so funny... I never noticed that I placed your name on there twice. As for the list length, I'm sure there are others that I am forgetting. I just took a quick scroll through the Fantasy section of the forum and picked out a few names. If you can think of anyone else, please tag them in the thread for me!
...

You could put Pendrake on there...

The last game of Warhammer I played was 8th Edition. But they (I am not kidding!) folded up the gondolas, packed up the products, gathered up the terrain (that we weren't using) and shuttered the store around us. They closed for business forever on that very day. The game tables went last...


...not active anymore.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

You could put Pendrake on there...

You have been added good sir!

The last game of Warhammer I played was 8th Edition. But they (I am not kidding!) folded up the gondolas, packed up the products, gathered up the terrain (that we weren't using) and shuttered the store around us. They closed for business forever on that very day. The game tables went last...


...not active anymore.

That is sad. It really sucks that things folded up like that. Is there anyone in your neighborhood that might be interested? Any chance of reviving a small gaming group?



Any ideas for the points cost for Ra'nubis? It would be great to get 5-10 votes in!

 

[pendrake]

You have been added good sir!

Any ideas for the points cost for Ra'nubis? It would be great to get 5-10 votes in!

I am the one that went with 550.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I am the one that went with 550.

Awesome... it wouldn't let me see the votes until I voted because I originally had the poll set up that way. I edited it to allow for votes to be seen prior to voting, but I guess it didn't work. I just doubled up on your vote and I'll have to discount my vote at the end.


Thank you for your insight! As promised you are awarded a top hat in recognition of your contribution:

 

[pendrake]

I thought the author of a poll could see it by default. Weird.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I thought the author of a poll could see it by default. Weird.

That's what I thought too, but stranger still, even when I changed it back I still couldn't see it.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Hello all! I like the idea of doing custom characters too, so I thought I'd help my old friend @NIGHTBRINGER out and provide my own vote.

I chose 550 points because my own idea for a Slann-Mage Priest, the Spirit of Chotec, costs around 450 points and has the blessing of the Old Ones where he gets Ethereal but cannot join units, as he's an incarnation of the Sun God Chotec, but is otherwise similar to a normal Slann in terms of his powers - he doesn't have any special close combat rules, isn't a Loremaster, he isn't a BSB and doesn't have any amazing magic items or unique special rules, yet he also isn't Flammable so that's why I didn't choose a value above 600. 550 points is quite a large amount of points so will avoid Ra'Nubis being broken, but I also feel that above 600 would make him overpriced as he's still low toughness, low Initiative, low WS and Flammable.

Hope this helps!

Always willing and ready to assist another fantasy player in need...

 

[Killer Angel]

Let's try to give a review, putting Ra'nubis near a basic Slann.

A Slann is 300 pts

Ra'nubis got the same stats of a Slann

A Slann is a 4th wizard that uses one Lore, and so is Ra'nubis.

SPECIAL RULES: each one got the rules general rule of each own army, no modifier here. Ra'nubis is BSB, a Slann needs +25 pts, so Ra'nubis cost goes up to 325.

For a Slann, to be Lore master is +35 pts, we are at 360

Grand Hierophant: it's a small limitation, let's say -10 pts (Ra'nubis cost is now 350)

Mage Lord (Restless dead): it's a (much needed) boost... let's say +20 pts (370)

Shield of the Old Ones is the same for both.

Death Gaze: thye loss of the phisical attack is negligible, but how much strong is this special attack? Doing a comparison is vaguely similar to the Blade of Antarhak (50 pts), weaker for some points (multiple wounds heroes should have solid T), stronger for some other ones (just kill one troop and heal). (420)

MAGIC ITEMS:

Golden scarabs:
undying: a much stronger version of the shield that give one save 2+. +15 pts
underworld: what can be compared to this? a ruby ring of ruin? this one doesn't require power dices and got the sniper rule, but is usable only once. +30 pts
unbroken: it can save some loss to a unit. +25
unrelenting: similar to a healing potion, weaker but with range! +40
The sum of the magic items cost surpass the 100 limit, but the evaluation is not perfect.


With these reasonings, Ra'nubis cost should be 530 pts, with I'd say a 10-15 pts range, higher or lower.
For the poll i will select 550, but it should be "within 500 and 550",

Now, I'm curious to see your calculations, @NIGHTBRINGER

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Hope this helps!

It does indeed, thank you so much! Your breakdown is very helpful and very much appreciated.

In recognition of your efforts you are awarded 3 top hats:

With these reasonings, Ra'nubis cost should be 530 pts, with I'd say a 10-15 pts range, higher or lower.
For the poll i will select 550, but it should be "within 500 and 550",

Now, I'm curious to see your calculations, @NIGHTBRINGER

Thanks for such an in depth and accurate analysis. That is very useful.

In terms of my own calculations, to be honest I don't have any. I try to refrain from points costing my own characters in an attempt to eliminate bias. Since I already created every facet of the character, I think the best way to keep him fair is to have someone else (or better yet a group of people) assign his points value. Any character in Warhammer can be made to be a fair selection if he/she is points properly.

It's especially good to see that all of you are hitting pretty much the same mark. The very first time I had created a character and posted him on an old forum (The pyramid vault), I got points costs that ranged from around 600 points to about 2000 points. The numbers were absolutely all over the place. Luckily at the time I had a friend who was really into warhammer and had a great analytical mind, he broke down the character in the same fashion as you just did and I went with his value. My mighty lord ended up going for 750 pts (he did have a dragon after all!)

Thank you for such a great breakdown, as promised you receive the coveted blessing of 3 top hats:

 

[hardyworld]

Oh...there's more 8th Ed. holdouts lingering about than those you listed, but I've only played 2 games in the last 18 months, so I might have lost my 'veteran' status by now.

Quick rundown of how I came up with the cost:
Slann (with a few minor abilities not included) : 290 pts.
BSB: 25 pts.
Loremaster: 35 pts.
Mage Lord: 20 pts.
Death's Gaze: 45 pts.
Undying Scarab: 40 pts.
Underworld Scarab: 65 pts.
Unbroken Scarab: 35 pts.
Unrelenting Scarab: 45 pts.

Bonus for being in Tomb Kings army using Lore of Nehekhara: -20 pts.

Total: 580 pts.

Personally, I'd find it more interesting if his Mage Lord of the Mortuary Cult special rule was something different entirely....if it allowed him to cast Augmentation and Hex spells through other friendly mages with the Nehekharan Undead special rule.

EDIT 11/6/17: Due to Nightbringer re-defining the Underworld Scarab as an attack that automatically hits (post below this one). In short, a bunch of custom items that each break game's basic rules all on one character adds up to a very tough character for an opponent to face in battle.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@hardyworld Thank you very much for taking the time to write up such a great analysis of my character! Here are three top hats in your honor!

Oh...there's more 8th Ed. holdouts lingering about than those you listed

I hope so. 8th edition conversation is definitely at a bare minimum around these parts. There are quite a few more active 8th edition players over at EEFL.

Underworld Scarab: 5 pts. (with his low BS, this will hardly ever hit anything since it's a 1 use only item)

Keep in mind that his Ballistic Skill doesn't come into play because the scarab causes d3 hits.

Personally, I'd find it more interesting if his Mage Lord of the Mortuary Cult special rule was something different entirely....if it allowed him to cast Augmentation and Hex spells through other friendly mages with the Nehekharan Undead special rule.

Funny you should mention that, I did consider giving him a TK version of the "Arcane Vassal" special rule. I decided to go the route I did for a few reasons. Firstly, TK need a bit of a boost to healing/resurrection, they are a far cry from the Vampire Counts. Second, I thought a boosted version of an already existing TK attribute would demonstrate is mastery of their craft. Thirdly, fluffwise I didn't think that a Slann would have as close of a connection to a TK liche priest as a Slann might have to a Skink Priest.

It would be an interesting route to take however.

 

[Killer Angel]

Thank you for such a great breakdown, as promised you receive the coveted blessing of 3 top hats:
View attachment 36601 View attachment 36601 View attachment 36601

I will wear them with pride!

Will you post it also on Khemri?

I may, but I find there is very little to no activity over there.

Yeah, we're not exactly an active worldwide forum, but more a bunch of friends that sometime post things.

Now that we're on it, I've just opened the WIP phase for the november artistic comp.
You have a whole TK army that could be painted, and now an exquisite undead Slann that needs to be voted...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Now that we're on it, I've just opened the WIP phase for the november artistic comp.

I've been meaning to ask you about that. How can the entries be sent to you? I know you can't post pictures directly to the forum as you can over here. I used to have photobucket until they started charging money. Would it be possible to DM the pictures to you on this forum?

I am nearly finished with my Chaos Marauder unit filler (on a 75mm x 75mm base). I'd love to enter him into the contest.