AoS I just had my first real match as Seraphon, against Chaos. I destroyed him, and then we had a talk

[Bowser]

New players and casual players should always feel welcome, and that they can just have fun with what they have. If you want to destroy people save it for tournaments. At the same time if they are getting destroyed try to help yhem build a better army around what they do have. It's not a cheap game to get into, which is why I always advise people to mod their extra Knights from the get started box into scar vets. It gives them something unique, a conversion that is all their own and adds to the options for the build.
More players generate more ideas and moee fun. So best to keep the new guys coming back!

 

[Freddy25]

Hold on, about the Bloodclaw starhost. When they mention "scar-veteran" here: http://www.lustria-online.com/attachments/screenshot_20160404-152824-png.20282/ (they already mentioned scar veteran on cold one and carnosaur) were they refering to the Scar veteran with battle standard? https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-lizardmen-en.pdf

If so then that would really help out, as I could change my army into the following:

Bloodclaw starhost= 100
Oldblood on carnosaur= 320
Scar veteran on carnosaur= 260
Scar veteran on cold one= 100
Scar Veteran with battle standard= 160
Unit of 40 Saurus Warriors= 400
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120

Hurricanum= 320
Skink starpriest= 100

Totaal= 2000

And create a strong army that is still consisting of many units

Sorry, but now I'm from my smartphone and have some difficulty to see all the posts without making confusion!

Well, let's begin saying I have no idea what does that "Scar-veteran" means!!! Probably someone already asked this, but I don't know the answer...
And regarding the army list, you sure you wanna drop the Sunblood? I mean, you have a blob of 40 Saurus, I don't think the BSB would be a smart choice!

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

New players and casual players should always feel welcome, and that they can just have fun with what they have. If you want to destroy people save it for tournaments. At the same time if they are getting destroyed try to help yhem build a better army around what they do have. It's not a cheap game to get into, which is why I always advise people to mod their extra Knights from the get started box into scar vets. It gives them something unique, a conversion that is all their own and adds to the options for the build.
More players generate more ideas and moee fun. So best to keep the new guys coming back!

Yup, I fully agree! I am working on making a more bigger army so that I will get casualties of my own, and it will be more fun for my opponents. That was a good piece of advice from him. Though on the other hand I also expected that he wanted to try and use me to test his new super army with Hellcanon. And his excuse was to "ungreen the noob" if you would ;p Which made it all the more satisfying to win against him!

 

[Draconder]

And his excuse was to "ungreen the noob" if you would ;p Which made it all the more satisfying to win against him!

Reminds me of a time when I went to the Grand Tournament in Nottingham and while at a bed and breakfast I roasted someone at a game of chess who earlier said he was the very best and kept saying my moves were wrong ... right up to the point I said checkmate.

 

[Killer Angel]

And his excuse was to "ungreen the noob" if you would ;p Which made it all the more satisfying to win against him!

...I fail to see how, to knowingly adopt a petty behavior should be a valid excuse to act like a jerk.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

...I fail to see how, to knowingly adopt a petty behavior should be a valid excuse to act like a jerk.

Who me? I'm sorry, I'm not sure which one you meant.

Well I was actually pretty modest. And the reason I took the Thunderquake starhost is because those were the models I already had. It was basically quality vs quantity. And I had the advantage after I destroyed his Hellcanon (as he had no rend or hard hitters aside from his swarm).

And it was satisfying because it was my first match, and he went full out against me with a 150+ buffed swarm army and a hellcanon with range 40 inch. And because he afterwards made a point about taking it casual to other players, and pretending like that was exactly what he was doing to me.

I just used 2 starhosts with a very small army, and with a combo which could easily been countered by his hellcanon, if he had not been too arrogant (I had explained what my skink priest did twice), and focussed down my Slann (saying "bye bye froggie" afterwards. Playfull though, but it was still very satisfying to destroy him in return).

I guess the win just made me hungry for more. And I've started working on a casual army that looks like this:

2000 points Saurus hunting party:

Bloodclaw Starhost= 100
Oldblood on Carnosaur= 320
Scar Veteran on Carnosaur= 260
Scar veteran on Cold one= 100
Oldblood= 100 (for the command that allows them better charges, and the reroll on 1 wound passive)
Unit of 40 Saurus warriors= 400
Unit of 10 Saurus knights= 240
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120

Skink Priest= 100 (or Starpriest if more casual)
Slann Starmaster = 260 (for both the 1 reroll on hit/+1 spell/Charge, as well as the save rerolls in the shooting phase. All the other heroes can also use their command abilities due to the Bloodclaw starhost)

This army has units with low armor, and many and cool looking ones as well. By using this, even if I win, the opponent will still feel like he accomplshed something as he most likely took down some of my units as well. Plus it will be more challenging for me as I will have to move from terrain to terran and hope I can attack first. The Skink priest has a 50% chance to give the reroll on saves buff, so it's also either a hit or a miss.

I will use this army against more casual players, so that it will be longer and more fun to both of us. How does this sound?

 

[Killer Angel]

Who me? I'm sorry, I'm not sure which one you meant.

uh? nope! did you have the impression i was pointing at you?

NO, the jerk with a petty behavior is the guy that used a (what he believed to be) broken army, to teach some lesson to newbies, and when he losed he has also complained.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

uh? nope! did you have the impression i was pointing at you?

NO, the jerk with a petty behavior is the guy that used a (what he believed to be) broken army, to teach some lesson to newbies, and when he losed he has also complained.

No problem I'm afraid my english isn't my best, so I got things confused.

But yeah, that irked me as well. It did make beating him all the more satisfying!

But what do you think about my more casual saurus army? I at least agree with him that it might be more fun to have a more casual army on hand as well. Hence why I made one with high offensive units that require good control and environment management. Hopefully this one will be a bit more tame for the casual players.

 

[Killer Angel]

But what do you think about my more casual saurus army?

I am a fan of "use all the command abilities of your hero".
With dwarfs I tend to use longbeards, with TK there's Settra... so yeah, the Bloodclaw starhorst get a "thumb up" from me!

That said... the list is nice, a pity no saurus guards and warden, but I suppose you cannot have all!

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

I am a fan of "use all the command abilities of your hero".
With dwarfs I tend to use longbeards, with TK there's Settra... so yeah, the Bloodclaw starhorst get a "thumb up" from me!

That said... the list is nice, a pity no saurus guards and warden, but I suppose you cannot have all!

Well instead of the 15 knights and scar vet. on cold one I could get a eternity warden and 15 guards It would be better I think, but I don't want my army to be too powerfull ^^;

What do you think? With the knights I use my knights to charge in and deal nice damage, and warriors take some hits. With guards, my guards take the hits for my warriors, so they can deal more damage (40 unit stack, 80 attacks with clubs, 80 bite attacks. With a hit roll of 6 have an additional attack!).

What do you think? Should I keep knights and keep it more casual to have a more offensive army? Or switch to guards just to be sure?

 

[Killer Angel]

Guards will give you a powerful block that will stay upon some key point (objective), but you will lose the mobility granted by the knights.
Usually guards are more powerful than knights, but it depends if your opponents play with armies that deliver lots of mortal wounds, or lots of mobile units.
I'd say to do some test with the 2 versions, and then see what suits you better.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Guards will give you a powerful block that will stay upon some key point (objective), but you will lose the mobility granted by the knights.
Usually guards are more powerful than knights, but it depends if your opponents play with armies that deliver lots of mortal wounds, or lots of mobile units.
I'd say to do some test with the 2 versions, and then see what suits you better.

Well I'm trying to find the right balance between strong and efficient, but also casual You might be right that it's best to try different versions.

Btw, what do you think is the best skink hero for either of them? Skink priest who has a 50% chance to give rerolls on melee saves (Slann already gives rerolls on save rolls in the shooting phase), or the Skink Starpriest who can buff my warriors with a increased bite damage attack and give my warrior (or guards) unit a -1 on all attacks against them?

 

[Killer Angel]

Btw, what do you think is the best skink hero for either of them? Skink priest who has a 50% chance to give rerolls on melee saves (Slann already gives rerolls on save rolls in the shooting phase), or the Skink Starpriest who can buff my warriors with a increased bite damage attack and give my warrior (or guards) unit a -1 on all attacks against them?

not so easy question.
the priest grants re-rolls save, which is HUGE if you field things ala Bastiladon or Temple Guards. Sadly, it's an unreliable ability and usually you won't have the re-rolls in the moment when you need them the most.
the buff of the starpriest on the damage of the carnosaur is stellar, you field 2 dinos and the double dam on sixies is undeniably good. But you need to keep the priest near the carnosaur, and when they start to run and charge he will be left behind. But the spell still remains.

All in all, I'd say Starpriest.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

not so easy question.
the priest grants re-rolls save, which is HUGE if you field things ala Bastiladon or Temple Guards. Sadly, it's an unreliable ability and usually you won't have the re-rolls in the moment when you need them the most.
the buff of the starpriest on the damage of the carnosaur is stellar, you field 2 dinos and the double dam on sixies is undeniably good. But you need to keep the priest near the carnosaur, and when they start to run and charge he will be left behind. But the spell still remains.

All in all, I'd say Starpriest.

I was actually thinking of giving the Starpriest buff to my 40 Saurus unit. You get two bites due to the bloodclaw starhost. So 80 attacks, and each 6 on wound is double damage. Plus thanks to the buff of the scar vet on carno, I can give them a extra attack on a hit of 6.

Basically I really buff up my warriors like a wrecking ball, and then make them destroy the enemy.

For this I'm thinking about guards instead of the knights, so they can take the hits so my warrior unit can wreck them.

However, Alongside the oldblood on carno, scar vet on carno, and eternity warden, what should I take as my last hero?
The oldblood for the rerolls of wound rolls of 1 to units within 5 inch of him? Along with the reformatting (you can technically move 3 inch per hero fase? For all your units? With one standing still?)
Or the Sunblood for more damage, and rerolls on all failed hit saves (not just the 1's that the Slann gives you).

What do you think about those options?

 

[Bradifer]

Honestly if you're going for a more casual and fun list, just don't bring the guard.

Your list is very aggressive and wants to really pin down the enemy and force them to react.

Knights help a proactive strategy and even if they're not the best, they sure do look cool and honestly we don't get a chance to use them often.
You can have a hundred opportunities to throw guard in the list and they will perform well, take a different approach and go full aggressive.

Also, the warriors are muchh better with spears in such a large block. Theorizing "40 attacks" from 40 club wielders means 40 of your guys in base contact.
Never happens.

Spears are better in larger blocks when the # of attacks starts to outweigh the +~16% accuracy of clubs. Especially when you are getting rerolls from Slann.

Also think Starpriest is more fun here. Remember he can starlight an enemy and give it -1 to hit, regardless of w/e it attacks. Great for knocking down big enemy blob or monster.

 

[Killer Angel]

I was actually thinking of giving the Starpriest buff to my 40 Saurus unit. You get two bites due to the bloodclaw starhost. So 80 attacks, and each 6 on wound is double damage. Plus thanks to the buff of the scar vet on carno, I can give them a extra attack on a hit of 6.

However, Alongside the oldblood on carno, scar vet on carno, and eternity warden, what should I take as my last hero?
The oldblood for the rerolls of wound rolls of 1 to units within 5 inch of him? Along with the reformatting (you can technically move 3 inch per hero fase? For all your units? With one standing still?)
Or the Sunblood for more damage, and rerolls on all failed hit saves (not just the 1's that the Slann gives you).

What do you think about those options?

As already said, those 40 saurus will never mede all those 80 bites Attacks. But surely it's another reason to take the starpriest.
The Oldblood is surely strong for piling in more models. The Sunblood will definitely help you in wiping away enemy's units (one at a time).
Different utilities, I'd say.

If you don't bring the guards (as suggested by Bradifer), you won't take the warden... so, Oldblood AND Sunblood.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

As already said, those 40 saurus will never mede all those 80 bites Attacks. But surely it's another reason to take the starpriest.
The Oldblood is surely strong for piling in more models. The Sunblood will definitely help you in wiping away enemy's units (one at a time).
Different utilities, I'd say.

If you don't bring the guards (as suggested by Bradifer), you won't take the warden... so, Oldblood AND Sunblood.

What do you mean? As long as the Guards make a defensive ring around them, the guards will take the brunt of the charge if he manages to charge first. Then I can send my warriors in my following turn as a charge attack, and attack multiple of his units in one go.

Honestly if you're going for a more casual and fun list, just don't bring the guard.

Your list is very aggressive and wants to really pin down the enemy and force them to react.

Knights help a proactive strategy and even if they're not the best, they sure do look cool and honestly we don't get a chance to use them often.
You can have a hundred opportunities to throw guard in the list and they will perform well, take a different approach and go full aggressive.

Also, the warriors are muchh better with spears in such a large block. Theorizing "40 attacks" from 40 club wielders means 40 of your guys in base contact.
Never happens.

Spears are better in larger blocks when the # of attacks starts to outweigh the +~16% accuracy of clubs. Especially when you are getting rerolls from Slann.

Also think Starpriest is more fun here. Remember he can starlight an enemy and give it -1 to hit, regardless of w/e it attacks. Great for knocking down big enemy blob or monster.

But can't I pile my single unit of 40 guards across multiple enemy units? so say I charge, and divide them across 4 enemy units to maximum effect?

But even then the spear is better for the better pile up right? Even though the club has a wound success of 4+ compared to the 3+ of the club, you can get more attacks off?

Also, shouldn't I take at least the Scar veteran on cold one? For the extra attacks on knights? As opposed to taking both the Sunblood and oldblood?

I love how this is coming along though!

 

[Bradifer]

The be honest the whole point was to be more casual.
The easiest way to play like a casual is to just throw units in until your points full ip, and not worry about tactics.

I personally can't stand that style of play. Basically we're designing a highly synergistic super aggressive sauras list with a plethora of targets instead of a defensive unkillable blob.

Anyways with that in mind, here is a 'more casual' version of a sauras list, but it's clearly been drawn up by a bunch of Seraphon tacticians, rather than just some dude who just got done painting i.e. a casual player.
-------------
Can try something like this:

Leaders
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (320)
- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (260)
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One (100)
Saurus Sunblood (120)
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Trait: Reckless
- Artefact: Talisman of Blinding Light

Units
Saurus Warriors x 40 (400)
- Spear
Saurus Knights x 5 (120)
- Lance
Saurus Knights x 5 (120)
- Lance

Behemoths
Troglodon (200)

Batallions
Bloodclaw Starhost (100)

Total: 2000/2000

Carnosaur, Carnosaur, Troglodon all charge up left flank. Troglodon+OldBlood shoots at enemy wizards. (Slann Arcane Bolts same target via: Channeling through Trog.

Knights, Knights, Scarvet on Knight charges up right flank.

Saurus warriors, Sauras Warriors, Sunblood, Slann MARCH up middle. Flying over terrain.
(Reposition this slightly if you need. Knights/Monsters can't fly most likely cuz they're faster than Slann most of the game. Sauruas warriors can take the "WORST" path terrain wise, cuz they just fly over it and ignore it.

Position warriors something like this:
12345678901
12345678901
123SlannSunblood4567
12345678901

Knights probably like this:
__1234ScarVet56
7890__
Let the ScarVet get his hits in, but don't sacrifice him. Only let 1-3 models touch his base. Hopefully less.
Dont stick him on the side though or they will pile in around him.
Your pile ins look like this
1_X_X_X_X_X_6
7_2_3_4_SV_5_0
_8__________9

Carno/Carno/Trog
That's super dependent. But make it so when enemy piles in it looks something like this:

X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X_X
X_[Scar]_[Old]_[Trog]_X

Angle slightly if you need. Trog/Old get ranged attacks, so make sure they're in a range to do that. Once they're stuck fighting they'll be there a while.

Sunblood and Slann are unchargeable. Enemy has to choose what to shoot at.
Groups of fast Knights? Their leader?
Fast Carno/Carno/Trog?
Giant very killy warrior squad?
Force Multiplier Slann?
Force Multiplier Sunblood?

Another minor tactic, is to use melee units' 1" attacks first. If you use your 2" attacks first and kill a significant amount (say like 30% of enemy squad) then if they're smart, they'll just pull all the units within 1" and leave you with nothing to hit. They get to pile in regardless so no loss for them. (This can backfire if you actually do well with jaws (UNLIKELY) and kill too much making your spears worse, if your opponent does the same tactic removing the models in base-to-base.) It would stop your 2nd rank of spear soldiers from hitting.

Starpriest is wonderful and has fun abilities, but you're sortof looking at a more casual list. Trog is fun and not our best unit, so have some fun with him
Plus Trog finally has the use of letting Slann channel through him to cast long range Mystic Shields and Arcane bolts at enemy wizard.

Wow guys did we do it? Did we tactics right?

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

I actually love your list I'm off to bed but I'll take a better look tomorrow.
I love how your Trog can channel the Slann's spells! But shouldn't you take warriors with spears, like you said earlier?

In the meantime, what do you think of this deathball build? It trades the oldone on carnosaur for a oldone on foot. With both skink priest and starpriest buffing them, and the scar vet on cold one and 15 knight unit ready to charge in over the front enemy and at their weak backline units, and divide over them. The oldone on foot can move all units 3 inch forward around another unit. And he will allow his warriors to reroll wound rolls of 1. With their spears they can pile up better. And with the Starpriest's staff buff and the scar ver on carnosaur's buff on them their bite attacks will work amazingly well, and they can generate more attacks.

Also wait, if your warriors attack with 2" spears a 1" enemy can't retaliate?

 

[Bradifer]

Oops. Changed to spears + lances.

Also your build doesn't work.
Bloodclaw = 4 leaders.
Slann + Skink priest + Starpriest = 7/6 leaders.

Yes the enemies can retaliate vs. your spears.
Your rank 1 gets to attack (1").
Your rank 2 gets to attack (2").
Your rank 1 then gets to Jaws & Starshield (1").

Enemies take a turn, let's say it's the opposing group:
They do all their attacks within range (Maybe 1").