AoS I just had my first real match as Seraphon, against Chaos. I destroyed him, and then we had a talk

[Nielspeterdejong]

So people have been asking me how my very first match was as Seraphon. This is my first real match as Age of Sigmar, and I just finished it about half an hour ago as I'm home now and typing this. He was a veteran player, and according to him estimated around the top 3 players of the Netherlands. He brought a army of over 150 units, among them:

A hell canon, which deals 2D6 damage if he hits his hits, which is boosted for hit by his general.
Over a hundred small units with no saves (10 for 60 points) but who were boosted by a gigantic mamoth and by other units. His units were also boosted by standards, and basically he had a ton of weak units which were turned into strong ones.
A giant ape thing that wanted to charge in, and other heroes.
The Hellcanon scared me, and felt a bit overpowered to me. Mostly because mortal wounds were my weakness. I had: Slann mage priest, 15 guards, eternity warden, eternal starhost, skink priest, skink chief, thunder quake starhost, salamander, engine of the gods, bastiladon with snakes, bastiladon with lazers. So basically I had a very small army compared to his endless units.

To sum it up, his hell canon destroyed my Slann, even when his eternity warden took some hits for him, in the second round, where he was first (so he had two turns after each other). With glee he said how his turret costed a wopping 300 points (still a bit cheap if you ask me ^^; ), and he then charged in with his units with one of the unit attacking my 5 guards unit for 60 attacks or so at one points, saying how the unit was about to get raped. He was able to get 1 of my guards to his surprise. After which in the following turn I took down 16 of his warriors, then more and more. With my priest allowing me to reroll saves When it was my turn, I rolled crappy for my bastiladon lazer and only did 3 wounds to him, but then with my engine of the gods I hit with the D6 mortal wound ray, and I destroyed his canon with 4 wounds. After that my units mopped up, and in the end I lost my Slann and 1 guard, while he lost over a hundred units. After that he gave up, and shaked my hand.

But then they sat down, and said how frustrating my army was. How frustrating it was, and that it was better that I didn't use it against other players who are just here to have fun. Though he was okay with me using it against him, with him then trying to look at my units, and talking about how he could take mine out. A friend of his then said that he would never let anyone play against my army in his shop, as it was too frustrating as I only lost 2 units, and he lost over a hundred. The other members of the club chimmed in, stating how they would not want to fight against my army as it's much to hard to get kills. But they would love to fight against his army since they would still feel like they participated by making klls. Ofcourse, they were all mostly chaos players. Thing is, his units were all crappy ones he buffed, and I had only very few units which were worth more. And also he admitted later that Hell canons were no longer being made, and only very few people had them. He also placed them behind a wall, so that he could make most of it. Along the talk he did mention how I was "talking how overpowered his canon was, and bascially that I was "whining" while only losing 2 units".

But in my first match he, as a high level player, played a very huge and very powerfull army, backed by a Hellcanon to which he said when I asked him what counters Hell canons: "Nothing, find another Hellcanon to counter it if you have it". So bastically he admitted that nothing really counters his Hell canon, and yet he took it to my first match knowing that it was really powerfull, and then had a chat with me how frustrating my own army was and that it was better not to use it against new or casuall players ^^;

Well, on the ride back I was smiling with glee. I know my army was powerfull and almost unkillable. But he had the perfect counter to it, and still I beat him Sure, he should have known to focus my skink priest first, as the rerolls saved me time and time again. But I also didn't know about his Hell canon and how crazy powerfull it was (and yes, I feel it was overpowered, especially as it isn't made anymore for apparent good reason). And now he asked for a rematch to try and find ways to explicitly destroy my army ;p I might lose to him in the future, but as a novice player who never had a real match as Seraphon or Warhammer, it felt really good to destroy a top tier player who went all out on me

Sure, I'll build a Saurus warrior army against Casual players, but I will still take the starhost (now with 9 Kroxigor instead of the guards) with more ranged against players like him. Since he did went all out with a very powerfull army against me as a novice as well after all But again, I'll take his advice to heart at least, and make a more offensive warrior army to fight with against others as I play it for the fun.

Well that's basically my first real Seraphon match What do you guys think?

 

[InfamousBeany]

Interesting stuff. To be honest, your opponent seemed pretty salty, and a poor loser. Part of every competitive game is recognising opposing threats and learning how to overcome them. You could have turned up with 3 Hurricanums and tabled him by turn 2, but you didn't: you took an army that had a theme, and had units you thought were cool. That was not bad decorum, it was not power gaming, it was simply a decent army list.

Now, his first failing was not to use his mortal wounds against the right targets. The Slann does not warrant shooting first. Saurus Guard however, do. His second failing was taking simply atrocious units. Judging by your description, he took Scyla and a metric ton of the Khorne marauder chaps, and not much else (bar a mammoth? Could have been a warshrine?), so he gave himself an unnecessary handicap from the get go.

Congrats on your first win, but don't let that get to your head- stay hungry! I think its wise to have several different lists available to use, as even though I kinda called your opponent on being a bit of a sore loser, one of the big parts of the game is working and communicating with your opponent to have the most fun game you can.

Best of luck with the rest of your games, I shall end on this:

Snake Bastiladon is a nerd, Laser Bastiladon 4 lyfe

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Thanks! And yeah, I'm still definately hungry! I already have another fun team in mind

Honestly, during their chat (them as chaos players, against me as a newby) I felt a bit flustered, like I was thinking "crap, did I power game?" while in truth I just picked what I thought was a good army, and you're right that on one hand he is right that it should be fun to others. But on the other hand it did really feel like he thought his army (which he spend a lot of time working on) "should have won". Even though he knows he basically swarmed me with crappy units which he then buffed in really good units, and even added a chaos canon. For our future match I'll probably use this:

Slann Starmage (give him the hero item, maybe the item that increases his damage to 2. He'll have 6 attacks with -1 rend and 2 damage each)
Astrolith bearer (rerolls on failed hits)
Skink chief (general, for the +1 buff)
Starpriest (who with the astrolith bearer can dish out some mean mortal wound damage)
Thunderquake starhost:
9 Kroxigor (can buff with mythic shield and starlight)
Bastiladon Lazer
Stegadon with bow
Troglodon.

So that he can't target my skink priest to remove rerolls on saves, as my Kroxigor will have that thanks to the Thunderquake Plus with the increased range I can try and take down his chaos canon first. That thing is really overpowered, no matter how you look at it. I did whine a bit about the Chaos canon, which I regretted, but I just shut up about it then, and I was really happy when I took down his canon and found out that his many units were no match for my few Guards.

Against more casuall players though, I'll make a bloodclaw starhost (oldblood on carny, scar veteran on carny, sunblood, scar veteran on cold one, 10 cavalry, 40 warriors, and skink starpriest and Slann Starmaster for the Buffs.) to go all offense and have a fun and challenging match.

 

[Bowser]

I always like it when the new guys beat the "Veterans". He makes a point not to destroy the newbies, but then acts like that's exactly what he was trying to do. So good job, keep stomping!

 

[Killer Croc]

poor loser, nothing left to say. And a "top tier plyer" would never talk like this.

Next time play double laser Bastiladon supportet by hurricanum

For stupid cannons etc behind walls, ill try a shadowstrike starhost

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

poor loser, nothing left to say. And a "top tier plyer" would never talk like this.

Next time play double laser Bastiladon supportet by hurricanum

For stupid cannons etc behind walls, ill try a shadowstrike starhost

Yeah, it did feel odd to me. Especially as afterwards he talked with glee about having chaos canons and another chaos player didn't while talking to him. And even stated there was no counter according to him ^^; He was right that having a more offensive army might be more fun to new players/casuals. But I felt like he really wanted to "give the noob a un-greening match". But got destroyed instead.

But won't you sacrifice your Ripperdactyl then? As they are in the middle of the enemy lines?

And tell me more about the hurricanum, what does it do?

 

[Killer Croc]

Hurricanum:

a +1 to hit bubble for all order units, a shooting attack with 18" range , 3 shots which makes d3 or d6 mortal wounds (depending on your roll) each. And a comet spell which makes d6 mortal wounds too. But just check out the warcroll the hurricanum is so cheesy with the starseer rerolls and cause of fate.

i play a shadowstrike starhost with 3 ripperdactyls, 10 skinks and 5 chamo skinks. Together with a battleline of Stegadon, Bastiladon and a Hurricanum. In the ripperdactyls i hide an assassin (Dark elves) thats a pretty nice alphastrike to take out the synergie units/caster/Warlord whatever. You can wait until round 2 to release all the cool stuff. But i dont know i have my first game with the ripperdactyls (shadowstrike Star Host) on wednesday. Then i can say how they performed

 

[Draconder]

I would have been put a little off when everybody in the entire club started saying that they would not want to play against my army because it was too difficult to kill a unit. They would seriously dislike playing against a fair few players in my local club (especially one undead force who replenishes his losses so quickly). Still, it is nice of you to be considerate and take some units that do not have as high a save so that your opponents will feel like they achieved something.

No model is unbreakable though obviously some units are better than others in terms of points value. I would love to see their faces if they knew of the Thundertusk Beastriders are only 320pts and they have an 18" range missile attack that does a straight 6 mortal wounds on a 2+ when at full health.

Still, schadenfreude is very fun against opponents who brag or boast their worth too much.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Hurricanum:

a +1 to hit bubble for all order units, a shooting attack with 18" range , 3 shots which makes d3 or d6 mortal wounds (depending on your roll) each. And a comet spell which makes d6 mortal wounds too. But just check out the warcroll the hurricanum is so cheesy with the starseer rerolls and cause of fate.

i play a shadowstrike starhost with 3 ripperdactyls, 10 skinks and 5 chamo skinks. Together with a battleline of Stegadon, Bastiladon and a Hurricanum. In the ripperdactyls i hide an assassin (Dark elves) thats a pretty nice alphastrike to take out the synergie units/caster/Warlord whatever. You can wait until round 2 to release all the cool stuff. But i dont know i have my first game with the ripperdactyls (shadowstrike Star Host) on wednesday. Then i can say how they performed

Dark elf assassin? Can you play that with order? And do tell me more about him/her

And how does this sound as a Army around the Hurricanum?

Anti Hellcanon

Thunderquake starhost= 120
Lazer Bastiladons= 300
Stegadon= 260
Troglodon= 200
6 Kroxigor= 360

Astrolith bearer= 160
Starseer= 160
Celestial Hurricanum= 320
Starpriests= 100

Totaal= 1980

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

I would have been put a little off when everybody in the entire club started saying that they would not want to play against my army because it was too difficult to kill a unit. They would seriously dislike playing against a fair few players in my local club (especially one undead force who replenishes his losses so quickly). Still, it is nice of you to be considerate and take some units that do not have as high a save so that your opponents will feel like they achieved something.

No model is unbreakable though obviously some units are better than others in terms of points value. I would love to see their faces if they knew of the Thundertusk Beastriders are only 320pts and they have an 18" range missile attack that does a straight 6 mortal wounds on a 2+ when at full health.

Still, schadenfreude is very fun against opponents who brag or boast their worth too much.

Yeah that irked me a little bit as well. They said how they would love to play against his cool chaos army since they would be able to kill some low tier units with no save (10 for 60 points), and feel the contributed something. But in the end they almost admitted that they know they'd lose against all those normally low tier units who were buffed insanely by all the other units. While being backed by a very cheap (at least I felt it was) hell canon. I also buffed my units like him, but more on the offensive side. He should have brought more rend units or harder hitters.

But yes, I was smiling with glee while driving back last night, and also inside while they talked to me. I understood their points though, but at the same time he went with a very professional powerfull army, with again a Hell canon, against me while I was on my very first real match. The fact that I won against him with 2-150 units losses was really awesome! Especially since he personally didn't seem to think his hellcanon was too powerfull, but my 3 units of 5 guards which he could have taken out instantly with his Hellcanon were. He simply underestimated me, even while I mentioned that my skink priest gave the buff to the guards twice ;p

 

[Freddy25]

CAUTION! RANT INCOMING!
[This post is just my personal opinion: I don't want to offend anyone, and I'm trying to make a general discussion.
I don't have anything against Nielspeterdejong or others, on the contrary, congratulation for your victory!]
---

Despite the fact that @Nielspeterdejong 's opponent seems to me the worst kind of (semi) power gamer, the one who plays only to smash the others ignoring any kind of mutual fun, I have to say the I partially agree with him and all those who complain about how completely stupid and frustrating are Temple Guards and Bastiladons in Age of Sigmar.

A couple of days ago I was casually surfing the web and I found this thread:

Spoiler: Here's the link

https://www.reddit.com/r/ageofsigma...hon_players_how_do_you_feel_about_your_army/?

I 100% agree with this sentence in particular:
The thing about Seraphon is that many of their best attributes are so easy to achieve.
You don't have to do any thinking to get invincible tempel guard or bastiladons.
(Which in my opinion means there's not much merit in using them, and they often cause frustration to our opponents)

I don't know how good is the Hell Cannon, as far as I know it could be invincible, and I know that any army/race has its own "cheesy beasts", but it doesn't mean that those 2 units of ours are able to tear apart the fun of the match - in my opinion.
I deliberately choose not to use them as much as I can, even if the Bastiladon is my favourite model, cause it was making me feel bad towards my opponent(s)!
Not because Guards'n'Bastis can't be defeated, this is not true, but because they sound like a giant Easy Mode trigger.
Field them and any player, from the noob to the super-master expert, (seems to) have the certainty not to struggle in order to achieve victory.

It's frankly stupid how easy is for us to drop one of these units on the table in regard to how is hard for the others to defeat them!

Some players put a lot of effort in order to create a powerful and/or synergic army list with not-so-common units... then you look how Seraphon lovers actually play, and almost everyone field the exact same things.
(Obviously, ecceptions exist, but let's say I can see some sort of "trend", also here in L-O! )

Now, anyone is able to play as he prefers, field the units he likes most, etc. but let's be honest: people like to win, and if those two units weren't
this mindlessly overpowered there wouldn't be so many Seraphon players whose army lists gravitate around Ethernal Starhosts and one or more Bastiladons (rigorously with Solar Engine).

I don't know, guys, maybe it's me, but do you agree? Don't you think that lately [from General's Hanbook release onward] Seraphon army lists have started to become more and more similar?

---
If I'm off-topic, I'll post it in another section of the forum!

 

[Bowser]

CAUTION! RANT INCOMING!

I don't know, guys, maybe it's me, but do you agree? Don't you think that lately [from General's Hanbook release onward] Seraphon army lists have started to become more and more similar?

---
If I'm off-topic, I'll post it in another section of the forum!

I think we all agree that the game should be fun for all players. Bad losers or not. Sometimes though, you have to bully the bullies to remind them of that.
With the addition of the points systems you would see trends in lists, same as it was for 8th. A lot of people are however moving away from Seraphon only lists and mixing in new support units from other factions.

I tried to play an old open play list in a pitched battle, lord Kroak was pretty ineffective against fyreslayers who just shrug off mortal wounds.

The point is play an army that you like. The army that plays to your style. Some people do not think tactically, and will need more powerful units just to survive someone who can pull off clever tricks.

Absolutely pull your punches for new players with limited options. If they have a get started box and that's it, you should follow suit and give them a close game. Win or lose it is a far better experience than a slaughtering.

But the so called pros who come at new players with an army that they believe is unbeatable and will slaughter new players, deserve a beatdown from the new guy.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

CAUTION! RANT INCOMING!
[This post is just my personal opinion: I don't want to offend anyone, and I'm trying to make a general discussion.
I don't have anything against Nielspeterdejong or others, on the contrary, congratulation for your victory!]
---

Despite the fact that @Nielspeterdejong 's opponent seems to me the worst kind of (semi) power gamer, the one who plays only to smash the others ignoring any kind of mutual fun, I have to say the I partially agree with him and all those who complain about how completely stupid and frustrating are Temple Guards and Bastiladons in Age of Sigmar.

A couple of days ago I was casually surfing the web and I found this thread:

Spoiler: Here's the link

https://www.reddit.com/r/ageofsigma...hon_players_how_do_you_feel_about_your_army/?

I 100% agree with this sentence in particular:
The thing about Seraphon is that many of their best attributes are so easy to achieve.
You don't have to do any thinking to get invincible tempel guard or bastiladons.
(Which in my opinion means there's not much merit in using them, and they often cause frustration to our opponents)

I don't know how good is the Hell Cannon, as far as I know it could be invincible, and I know that any army/race has its own "cheesy beasts", but it doesn't mean that those 2 units of ours are able to tear apart the fun of the match - in my opinion.
I deliberately choose not to use them as much as I can, even if the Bastiladon is my favourite model, cause it was making me feel bad towards my opponent(s)!
Not because Guards'n'Bastis can't be defeated, this is not true, but because they sound like a giant Easy Mode trigger.
Field them and any player, from the noob to the super-master expert, (seems to) have the certainty not to struggle in order to achieve victory.

It's frankly stupid how easy is for us to drop one of these units on the table in regard to how is hard for the others to defeat them!

Some players put a lot of effort in order to create a powerful and/or synergic army list with not-so-common units... then you look how Seraphon lovers actually play, and almost everyone field the exact same things.
(Obviously, ecceptions exist, but let's say I can see some sort of "trend", also here in L-O! )

Now, anyone is able to play as he prefers, field the units he likes most, etc. but let's be honest: people like to win, and if those two units weren't
this mindlessly overpowered there wouldn't be so many Seraphon players whose army lists gravitate around Ethernal Starhosts and one or more Bastiladons (rigorously with Solar Engine).

I don't know, guys, maybe it's me, but do you agree? Don't you think that lately [from General's Hanbook release onward] Seraphon army lists have started to become more and more similar?

---
If I'm off-topic, I'll post it in another section of the forum!

Oh don't worry, I know exactly where you're coming from It is supposed to be fun for my opponents, and I can always remember my starhost and use it for a time when I have to play competetively. .

I'm also building a fun Saurus army, with plenty of units that will die, so it will be more fun for my opponent. This is how it will look like:
----
Saurus army

Bloodclaw starhost= 100
Oldblood on carnosaur= 320
Scar veteran on carnosaur= 260
Scar veteran on cold one= 100
Sunblood= 120
Unit of 40 Saurus warriors= 400
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120

Skink starpriest= 100
Skink priest= 100 (trappings)
Slann starmaster= 260 (uses his command as well for save rerolls in the shooting phase).

Total= 2000
----
However, against opponents like him who had no problem with going full power, I think I'll play against him again with with a variation:

Skink power!

Slann starmaster= 260 (hero)
Astrolith bearer= 160
Skink chief= 60 (general)
Starpriest= 100

Thunderquake starhost= 120
9 Kroxigor unit= 540
Bastiladon= 300
Stegadon= 260
Troglodon= 200

Totaal= 2000

Though I believe that Kroxigor don't count as battleline units? Should I remove some units and get some warriors/skinks to fill that out?

----
Alternatively, I could do a variation with my saurus army against them, while using the Hurricanum which I just bought: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/HURRICANUM-Empire-Warhammer-PRO-PAINTED-Games-Workshop-/172294943569?

Bloodclaw starhost= 100
Oldblood on carnosaur= 320
Scar veteran on carnosaur= 260
Scar veteran on cold one= 100
Sunblood= 120
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120

Hurricanum= 320
Starseer= 160
Astrolith bearer= 160
Skink starpriest= 100

Totaal= 2000

So that they feel like they did some damage to my army, but my Hurricanum was still able to destroy them (With Saurus knights being my 3 battleline units). How does this formation sound to you guys?
----
If you could give me your opinion on my previous ideas then that would be great!

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Hold on, about the Bloodclaw starhost. When they mention "scar-veteran" here: http://www.lustria-online.com/attachments/screenshot_20160404-152824-png.20282/ (they already mentioned scar veteran on cold one and carnosaur) were they refering to the Scar veteran with battle standard? https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-lizardmen-en.pdf

If so then that would really help out, as I could change my army into the following:

Bloodclaw starhost= 100
Oldblood on carnosaur= 320
Scar veteran on carnosaur= 260
Scar veteran on cold one= 100
Scar Veteran with battle standard= 160
Unit of 40 Saurus Warriors= 400
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120
Unit of 5 Saurus knights= 120

Hurricanum= 320
Skink starpriest= 100

Totaal= 2000

And create a strong army that is still consisting of many units

 

[Freddy25]

I think we all agree that the game should be fun for all players. Bad losers or not. Sometimes though, you have to bully the bullies to remind them of that.

Ahaha, well, I admit that guy behaved really poorly: maybe in the future he will no more understimate Seraphon players!

With the addition of the points systems you would see trends in lists, same as it was for 8th.

This is the most sad thing, in my opinion... I'm still not sure if the General's Handbook has made possible a welcome evolution of AoS, or has downsized the relaxing gamey atmosphere we was experimenting some months ago!

A lot of people are however moving away from Seraphon only lists and mixing in new support units from other factions.

Yeah, I like this thing! But I'm also waiting for Seraphon artifacts and/or magic... !!!

I'm also building a fun Saurus army, with plenty of units that will die, so it will be more fun for my opponent.

Ahaha: more blood (or glittering starlight) = more fun! In tabletop gaming, don't think of me as a psycho.

Saurus army

I really like it! I was thinking about an army list which is not much different from yours!

I believe that Kroxigor don't count as battleline units? Should I remove some units and get some warriors/skinks to fill that out?

Exactly: Kroxis aren't Battleline units... What about adding some regular Skinks? They could provide some shooting, also buffed by the Chief, and if you have enough points left, maybe there's place for Razors/Salamanders!

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Ahaha, well, I admit that guy behaved really poorly: maybe in the future he will no more understimate Seraphon players!

This is the most sad thing, in my opinion... I'm still not sure if the General's Handbook has made possible a welcome evolution of AoS, or has downsized the relaxing gamey atmosphere we was experimenting some months ago!

Yeah, I like this thing! But I'm also waiting for Seraphon artifacts and/or magic... !!!

Ahaha: more blood (or glittering starlight) = more fun! In tabletop gaming, don't think of me as a psycho.

I really like it! I was thinking about an army list which is not much different from yours!

Exactly: Kroxis aren't Battleline units... What about adding some regular Skinks? They could provide some shooting, also buffed by the Chief, and if you have enough points left, maybe there's place for Razors/Salamanders!

Thanks What did you think of my previous message? With the 40 saurus warriors, and the 2 units of 5 knights with the bloodclaw starhost, and adding that Hurricanum in?

 

[Bowser]

Your skink power list needs battleline, maybe skinks? Haha!
But the other two look pretty dangerous as well. You'll still suffer some losses but list one is downright killy if played right!

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Your skink power list needs battleline, maybe skinks? Haha!
But the other two look pretty dangerous as well. You'll still suffer some losses but list one is downright killy if played right!

You mean the Saurus army, or the Hurricanum one?

 

[Bowser]

Both, but specifically the Saurus one!

 

[Draconder]

While I do agree that there can be some really big cheese out there for Seraphon especially with what you can do with the Saurus Guard and Bastiladon I do feel the major weakness is how close together the army has to be in order for the majority of synergies to work and that makes many Seraphon formations quite defensive. With most match plays requiring you to go out and capture objects, that are spread out across the battlefield, to win they do have some major drawbacks (especially if the opponent knows who to aim their attacks at).

Still, I still love you guys for agreeing to take units that have a lower save to make it a more interesting match for your opponents. With so many different types of players, we are not all hyper competitive sorts.