Tutorial Dealing with threats

[Killer Angel]

We all know how it’s possible to hurt the enemy, assassinate heroes and kill monsters since turn one.

Units that pop from nowhere or that can simply move at once across the battlefield? Just to name someone: Chama skinks and shadowstrike formation; Bugman’s rangers; Stormcast’s lightning strike or Knight-Vessillor and Pennant of the Stormbringer; TK’s Scorpions or units buffed by Settra; Tzeentch changelings; wood elves’ Wanderer Host; long range summoning (Seraphon, Beastmen)…

We master the secrets of delivering tons of mortal wounds: Spiderfang Venom Mob; Eternal guards with shield of thorns; Skavens plague lists; Lord Kroak Nukecast…

Bury the enemy under heavy shooting or warmachines?: Sallies and Razordons; Tomb Kings, Tzeentch, Stormcast, Dwarfs… there are plenty of armies that can do it.

The lists are long.

The problem is: how do you deal with these threats, when you’re at the receiving end?


We’ll try to give an answer to this question, because here’s not a “perfect tactic” and there will always be some countermeasure. You only need to be prepared.

Generic defences against generic threats. Specific defences against specific threats. Different defences agains the same kind of threat. Single defences against different kind of threats. It’s only a matter of how many points / units do you have.

This thread will try to cover all of this (and I assure it won’t be an easy work), and, even if it will be centered upon Seraphon, it will also give useful indications to every army.

Questions and contributes are obviously welcome. If you want suggestions against some kind of attack, just ask. If you have any successful tactic that blocks a certain type of strategy, post it.

Just remember that I would like to keep this thread in a tutorial form, so try to be “game scientists”; pictures and images are welcome: we will teach the art of survival!

 

[Killer Angel]

How to protect yourself from:

Deep Strike Units – Close Combat in the first round​

General case

Many armies have single units or abilities for multiple units, that let them strike wherever they want, assassinating your precious key heroes, or slaying your costly monster.

Usually, suggestions to avoid your fate, are things like “kill the Knight Vessillor with chama skinks”.

Well, sadly this is not always possible: sometime, the enemy goes first, and you must survive… we will assume that this is the case.

The Enemy:

As said, there are really a plethora of units from different armies that can enter in melee during the first turn, delivering tons of damage.

Probably, one of the most dangerous is the Stormcast army.

Units that use the Lightning Strike ability can be transported to the battlefield, at 9” from the enemy; Knight-Azyros let you bypass this limitation, and a Knight-Vessillor with Storbringer Pennant let them arrive at 3” from you, dealing also mortal wounds in the process.

Dangerous Stormcast melee units in the role of assassin / monster hunters, are Paladins Retributors (2 attacks each, +3/+3, rend -1, dam 2) and Paladins Protectors (3 attacks each at range 3”!, 3+/3+, rend -1, dam 1… that can be a d6 if the target is a monster)

Your army:

Every army usually have some key units, be them the general, heroes, wizards, monsters, warmachines.

Key units may be different, but the principle is the same. Typical Seraphon will have a Slann, a Dinosaur and a Hero (or a Slann, a hero on dinosaur and a priest).Those “key units” will be, from now on, named “targets”.

Usually, you should avoid to concentrate the targets, 'cause if things go wrong, they would go wrong badly. So, divide the targets and exploit the terrains. Usually (9 on 10), near the corner of the battlefield there will be at least a terrain, so we’ll use it.

Create a nice triangle, dividing your targets in 3 different spots, using the terrain, the bord and the corner of the battlefield to reduce the room for the enemy, then surround you targets with disposable cheap units (hello skinks!).

Practical example:

Slann is in the corner with the warden, surrounded by skinks; hero on carnosaur is near the border, crowned by skinks; the little white platform is a piece of terrain, with a Starpriest encircled by kroxigor.

Each target is more or less at 12” from each other; every melee unit that wants to charge your targets, will impact on the screen units. Skinks may be killed, but heroes will survive, and in your turn you can decimate the attackers, because with the triangle the melee units can converge on any threatened group, and the Slann covers all of them with the range of spells.

now, on details:


The Slann with the warden (instead of a warden, you could have a BSB), are behind the skinks, at 3,5”: this means that even if the skinks are charged by protectors, the targets will be out of reach of the glaives.

In case of mortal wounds delivered by Vexillor or Azyros, kill the skinks behind to keep intact the screen.

Also the carnosaur is behind the skinks, at 3,5”, out of reach of the glaives; in case of mortal wounds delivered by Vexillor or Azyros, kill the skinks from the other side of the attackers.

The “screen” for the starpriest is not cheap at all: 6 kroxi are not a joke… however, they are in cover, so they have a save at 3+; even with rend, they’ll save at 4+ and to kill them all, the attacker must deal 24 wounds. As you can see, the less precious target is behind the most precious screen: if the attacker wants to kill the prest, he will be in CC with a full kroxi unit, while if he goes for the kroxi, probably he won’t kill ‘em all, and he’ll be attacked by the survived kroxies, backed up y the Slann, the Starpriest, the javelins of 20 skinks and the carnosaur.

If you don’t face protectors, things will be even easier, ‘cause you can reduce the distance between the skinks and the targets, avoiding the risk of a thin screen.


As you can see, this defensive set-up works basically for almost every kind of army.

Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings and Skaven will love it, ‘cause they are literally full of disposable, cheap units. Dwarfs units may be less cheap, but to save your cannons’ nest it’s priceless. The Empire could be glad to shield the Hurricanum behind crossbowmen, to shoot before the charge. It’s perfect for the Ogre and their gnoblar fighters, that can set traps do deal mortal wound on charging units!

Shield your key units behind cheap troops, place them exploiting the border and the terrains, be sure that your “groups” can support each other in the retaliation. If the enemy realizes this and decides to wait for an opening…. Then it’s your turn, and the initial advise will be valid: “kill the Knight Vessillor with chama skinks”.

 

[Killer Angel]

How to protect yourself from:

Deep Strike Units – Close Combat in the first round​

Specific case: Thunderquake Starhost

Various armies have battallions that rely on monsters… powerful units that are able to bring an insane amount of destruction. However, such beasties are usually a primary target, and it’s always good to know how you can avoid the quick death of your precious heavy hitters.

Seraphon are the first in line, and probably the Thunderquake host is our most reliable one.


The formation is really strong, and it rely mostly on 2 key units: the EotG / troglodon (that give the “Creator’s will” to the formation) and Slann (for his healing boost). Especially the EotG is a primary target, once gone the formation will be crippled. The EotG must survive, full stop.

As already said in the previous “general case”, there are armies with good monster hunters, that can go for the kill, and you don’t want that.

Formations like the Spider Fang Mob, can simply surrounf all the arachnarok with swarms of goblins on spider. We could do that too, but let’s say that your basic troops got other things to do. So, how do you protect yourself from sudden strikes by monster hunters?

The Enemy:

Again, we’ll use the Stormcast army: a unit of 10 Paladins Protectors , 7with glaives (3 attacks each at range 3”, 3+/3+, rend -1, dam 1… that can be a d6 if the target is a monster) and 3 with Maces (1 attack at 1”, automatic d3 mortal wounds)

Your army:

Bastiladon w solar beam, Bastiladon w ark of Sotek, EotG, 3 razordons, Lord Kroak, Astrolith Bearer


Set up, again, is the key: you are placing the unit with the premise that Stormcast are going first.

Use the battlefield: terrains may be helpful, but it’s better to have a side unreacheable by enemy: the border of the map works perfectly, and the center increases the portion of the battlefield threatened by Kroak. (in the picture there’s a warden, which is more useful than the BSB if you’re facing also a Knight-Venator)

The Bastiladons cover the sides of the formation: as you can see, the EotG got the two long flanks totally protected. The enemy can attack only the front or the rear but, tnx to the bastiladons, even with reach 3”, only a maximum of 3 Protectors will be able to effectively attack the EotG. And no more than a single Protector can attack Kroak.

EotG will have a save 4+ re-rollable (suffering rend, so 5+ rerollable), but it doesn’t matter: 3 protectors do 10 attacks, even with an additional d3 mortal wounds from the Storbringer Pennant, you’re not going to die, unless Stormasts show a really insane amount of luck.

________________________________________________________________________________
A brief side note:

(the only chances for Stormcast to kill the EotG will be a combo with also a Knight Venator. The Star-fated arrow and the stormbringer pennant could inflict on average 8 wounds to the EotG. Those 10 protectors attack will hit 7 times, and will probably threaten 4 wounds + 1 d6 wounds. 5 saves, at 5+ rerollable. The EotG could die, but only if the fated arrow hits, and if you fail 4 saves at 5+ against the arrow and the d6 attack of the protectors. Math is on your side, despite 2 heroes and one elite unit that concentrate on it)

And please note that this is with the formation placed on the center. Place it in the corner, and simply the EotG cannot be reached by melee units.
________________________________________________________________________________

The other good target for the protectors are a bastiladon, or the razordons (but razordons are not a so exciting victim, when you have the 3 dinosaurs at hand, right?).

Now, the good news:

Creator’s will is declared at the beginning of each combat round. Even in Stormcast’s turn the formation will be savage: re-roll saves.

When the protectors will attack a side or the front of the formation, 2 things will also happen: they will enter into 3” of at least one razordon,: 50% of stand and shoot with 6d6 hits. They will be at 8” from the Ark of Sotek, taking 1-3 mortal wounds.

So, before they attack, protectors should suffer the loss of 1-2 models. Let’s say 1

Protectors concentrate on a basti:

the maces will inflict 6 mortal wounds: you’ll save 3.

The other 6 protectors will deliver 19 attacks; 14 successful hits; 10 successful wound, 2 of them threatening d6 dam. With save at 3+ rerollableyou should suffer a couple of hits.

The bastiladon should die only if you fail one of those “d6 wounds”… so I’d say that thare are good chances that, at the end of the attack, your formations is still there in its entirety. Now, it’s your turn…


If the enemy realizes this and decides to wait for an opening…. Then nuke him with Kroak.

 

[YZK]

How would you protect against a gunline/heavy ranged army if they go first?
Think of Empire Cannons with 40" range, Mortars with 30" range, or the leaked Kurnoth Hunters with 30" range.
I'm afraid they'd be able to take down the Slann in each of these set-ups :/

You could try to hide behind scenery, but some units (like the Mortar) can fire anyway - how would you defend against that?

 

[Killer Angel]

How would you protect against a gunline/heavy ranged army if they go first?
Think of Empire Cannons with 40" range, Mortars with 30" range, or the leaked Kurnoth Hunters with 30" range.
I'm afraid they'd be able to take down the Slann in each of these set-ups :/

You could try to hide behind scenery, but some units (like the Mortar) can fire anyway - how would you defend against that?

Those set-ups are a counters to a certain kind of attacks. If you face dwarfs, the think you need to fear are: ranged snipers (Bugman rangers) and long range artillery. Those threats requires a totally different approach, defence with disposable screens doesn't work at all.
I'll develope suggestions against warmachines, but certainly you need an Eternity Warden.

 

[YZK]

Those set-ups are a counters to a certain kind of attacks. If you face dwarfs, the think you need to fear are: ranged snipers (Bugman rangers) and long range artillery. Those threats requires a totally different approach, defence with disposable screens doesn't work at all.
I'll develope suggestions against warmachines, but certainly you need an Eternity Warden.

Great! I'll be looking forward to it! Splendid work so far though - much appreciated!

 

[Killer Angel]

How would you protect against a gunline/heavy ranged army if they go first?
Think of Empire Cannons with 40" range, Mortars with 30" range, or the leaked Kurnoth Hunters with 30" range.

Cannons are a very particular kind of ranged attacks. Basically there's little way to protect yourself from some heavy cannonades.
But that "litte" could be enough...

Now, if we want to see how we can save our slann from cannons, at this point it's mandatory a test against probably the best artillery around warhammer. Dwarfs.

so:


How to protect yourself from:

Gunline army – Cannons!​

One of the common suggestion when facing cannons is: hide behind a scenery.
It works, but this suggestion got many limitations, the main one is that hiding is not always possible, and you can be sure there will be not enough pieces of terrains to hide your dinosaurs.
So, what should you do?


The Enemy:

Dwarfs. Feel free to substitute dwarfs' artillery with anything else. I doubt someone will be more efficient.
1 Cannon
1 Cannon
1 Grudge thrower
1 dwarven engineer (Each warmachine will fire two shots, and the cannons will reroll).


Your army:

Given that our basic seraphon army, is supposed to contain a Slann, a hero on carnosaur (or another vital dinosaur, as the EotG), and a priest (or a generic, not large hero, as an Astrolith bearer), we will assume the same here.
This time, you'll also have an Eternity Warden. He's always useful, but this time is mandatory.


Premises:
As always, we consider that you are not going first.
Cannons don't throw tons of dices, so average results are less predictable... however, i will consider average rolls (slightly in favor of the dwarfs).

Set-up.
on your side of the map, you will have, at least, a piece of scenery that can give total cover from cannons (not from the catapult, but 2 on 3 is huge). However, I'll assume it's not a large terrain, and not sufficient to shield the Slann.
Priest / Astrolith bearer: hide him behind the scenery that grants cover.
Slann: place him absolutely in a terrain, alongside with the Warden. We'll assume the Slann is within cannons' range.
Carnosaur / EotG: given that dwarfs go first, you will be the last one to place a unit. The dinosaur will be out of cannons' range.

This way, the main target for the whole gunline is the Slann.

2 cannons firing: 4 to hit at 4+, re-rollable. On average, 3 hits. To wound at 2+ (we assume they all wound, so a potential of 3d6 damage). The Slann is in a piece of terrain, and gain +1 to ST. He saves at 3+: with rend -2, he saves at 5+. He will save 1 shot out of three, taking the other 2. 2d6 = average 7 damage. 1 dam to the Slann, 6 to the Warden.

Grudge thrower firing: 2 to hit at 3+, 2 to wound at 3+, aka 4 dices at 3+. One will fail, so we'll suffer one hit, with rend -2 and 3 dam. One save at 5+. Let's say we fail it, it's 3 dam to the Slann.

In a set-up with a Slann under the fire of 3 of the best long-ranged warmachines, with rolls slightly in favor of the Dwarfs, after the shooting, the Slann and the Warden will be still alive, even if both with 1 wound remaining.

If the Dwarfs roll above average, shift the additional damage to the warden. He will be killed, but the Slann will be still alive.


It's your turn. As suggested before, you should have a pool of summoning point, and the cannons will be within your summoning threatened range. Or you could have chama skinks and / or a unit of terradons hidden in the clouds, to kill the engineer and weaken the crews, and you simply summon another Warden, while the warmachines' efficiency has been crippled.

______________
Side notes:
in your favor: things will be easier, if you don't have a generic Slann, but Lord Kroak.
in dwarfs' favor: their army could be more deadly. 4 or 5 cannons, and maybe also Bugman's ranger. Well, at this point probably it's be better to don't keep a reserve pool points, and field directly 2 wardens.

 

[PJetski]

How do Seraphon deal with deep striking Stormfiends? Unlike Retributors/Protectors they have a shooting attack that deals a ton of mortal wounds.

 

[scubrat]

How do Seraphon deal with deep striking Stormfiends? Unlike Retributors/Protectors they have a shooting attack that deals a ton of mortal wounds.

(I'm quite new to the game so might not be the best advice). The range of warpfire projectors is only 8" so if they're armed with grinderfists and do some digging, they won't be able to get in range to shoot in that turn as tunnelling counts as their move and they have to end 9" away from enemies. If they're not you should be able to fire twice at them before they get too close. By the time they're in range, they'll only get one ranged attack in before you get into close combat. You might have killed one of them so they may only get 8-10 mortal wounds. If you get your bastiladon in front, you'll take 4-5 wounds.

Their other ranged attacks aren't mortal wounds so you should be ok.

 

[Killer Angel]

Time to update the tactic.

How to protect yourself from:

Mortal Wounds​

AoS is evolving.
At the beginning, the spam of mortal wounds was possible also with a high concentration of wizards; now (tnx to the Rule of One) this is no more possible... however, we see a great development of lists that are able do deal a solid number of mortal wounds.
This can be a problem for any army that relies on elite troops (model with low wounds, high armor, and high points cost), and it's even more true for us.
Lists based on the Eternal Starhost are doomed to become obsolete (or, at least, far less efficient than what we were used to know). If you have a unit of 15 saurus guards (300 points), buffed by a Warden and by a Priest for re-rollable saves, and 240 points of spirit hosts charge you killing 12 guards, you have a problem.
Mortal wounds can be delivered in a number of ways:
- Magic (so many spells, including nasty ones as the brand new Foot of Gork)
- shooting (Dwarfs Flame Cannon, Skavens' warpfire thrower or jezzail, and so on)
- abilities (Celestial Hurricane, Thundertusks' frost wreathed ice...)
- charges (Stonehorn's charge, Saurus knights...)
- melee (Bloodletters of Khorne, Spirit hosts...)

Every army got 2-3 or more ways to inflict mortal wounds, and I'm not even counting battallions that are just a mortal wounds factory (spiderfang mob), just to name one).
Sadly, it's really hard to defend from mortal wounds and you can find, at best, solutions to soften the problem.
Luckily, it's usually hard to be under mortal wounds attacks from the very first turn, so at least you'll have some chances to increase your survivability.

So, what should you do?


Magic:

Some armies can boost their casting (daemons, Seraphon...), some armies can boost their unbind (dwarfs, Tomb Kings...).
Playing as Seraphon only, we can cover nicely the battlefield with our priests, but without buffs to unbind (unless we have re-rolls by the Starseer); if you know you're facing heavy magic, and you play order, it's always nice to have a runelord. A luminark can also be useful, if you're mixing with Empire.

Shooting / abilities:

the bad with shooting is that there's little you can do about it, 'cause the enemy can target your slann bunkered behind the saurus' line.
If you're playing a Slann, bring an Eternity Warden and keep your distance if you can. Try to use covers.

Charges:

the best answer is "disposable screen units". Skinks are perfect for this, they can die without bad repercussions, and they are sufficiently cheap. You can easy encircle your general on carnosaur with them, leaving your hero at full health for retaliation.
A nice trick is: keep your hero at 2" behind you skinks... if the mournfangs (or whatever unit the enemy is using) are so crazy to charge your skinks, obliterating them, the carnosaur will be at 3" from said unit and will pile-in, chomping the mournfangs... and then it will be your turn.

Melee:

The kind of unit that delivers mortal wounds on to hit / to wound of 6+, will usally be buffed by their own number (bloodletters) or their heroes (spirit hosts, Necropolis knights).
It's vital to reduce those bonuses. Shoot at them asap, reducing their number. Use always a Starpriest with Summon Starlight to reduce enemy's "to hit", and if you're playing order, you can flank your starpriest with an Empire Battle Wizard Grey. -2 to hit is huge.


Generic advices

Against heavy mortal wounds armies, avoid to field our best elite units (saurus guards), and favor more disposable units, like skinks as cheap screen, or an horde of saurus warriors that can afford some losses.
Favor Bastiladon, given that it's our only monster that can save mortal wounds, and support it with Starseer.
If you play dinos, shield them with screen units, and plan a tactic to heal your monsters (thunderquake starhost, battle wizard jade).
Be sure to have at least a way to inflict mortal wounds (Salamanders, other order's units), so also the enemy will have to think about it.
And finally, try to always have a couple of units to "deep strike" the enemy's units that deliver mortal wounds, especially at a distance (aka the ones that shoots, or use ranged abilities). Chama skinks and Shadowstrike starhosts are your friends, and things can be even easier if you play Order.

You can also play with opponent's mind, and force him to avoid the units you want to keep alive:
1st example: back in 8th, one of the ways to protect your dinos from cannons, was to field 2 or 3 dinos (the lod "target saturation").. There is a limit to the number of units that can deliver a consistent number of mortal wounds an opponent can field.
2nd example: sometimes, your most precious units are not the costly ones, but the cheap and fast ones that can threaten objectives. Force your opponent to concentrate on secondary targets.

 

[Bowser]

Brilliant! Keep going!

 

[InfamousBeany]

Great write up!

Been out the loop a bit with AoS as of late, but I have started to seriously re-evaluate the Troglodon. Being able to play aggressively and start unbinding enemy spells from turn 1/2, not to mention delivering an arcane bolt or mystic shield from your Slann to exactly where you need them, all on a bulky body for 200 points... perhaps it isn't quite as garbage as I initially thought.

As you put yourself, there's limited options to dodging mortal wounds spam, so I feel that the Trogster fits quite nicely as our counter to it, especially with a Jade battlemage chilling at the back. Its a bulky, medium to high priority target that can unbind, snipe and disrupt, and is seriously good at screening other units due to its size. Definitely more worth considering now that we as an independent army are far less dominant than we were previously.

Now we have to work out how to take out the Kunnin' Rukk...

 

[Killer Angel]

Now we have to work out how to take out the Kunnin' Rukk...

Yeah, they can deliver an insane amount of shooting, and given the bonus move from the faction, they threaten a really large area.

 

[Killer Angel]

How to protect yourself from a very specific threat:

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage​

The BoIR is a 280 pts model, and I fear we'll see it often in Khorne lists. Especially in tournament, where there's no Gentlemen's Agreement to avoid broken things.
The ability that makes it really terrifying, especially now with the General's handbook, is its Otrageous carnage: if the wound roll for the Great Axe is 6+, each enemy unit within 8" suffers a certain number of mortal wounds (3, at full health of the daemon).

The khorne lists will have no difficulty in fielding buffer for the run or charge (+3" for each guy with the whip - bloodstoker), so the Bloodthirster (that flies!), if backed up by a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster (or something similar) can successfully charge any point in the battlefield since turn 1.
the BoIR can:-
deliver 5 Attacks of great axe (artefact from the general's handbook)
gain +1 to wound (general's trait)
gain +1 to wound (formation daemon cohort)

basically 5 attacks that deliver mortal wound in a 8" area for any 4+, without working too much on it.

If you have a bunker of eternal starhost, with 3 units of saurus guards, an eternity warden, a Slann and an astrolith bearer, the guy will charge them, spamming mortal wounds to all of them. If he's unlucky, even with just 2 "to wound" at 4+, it means 6 mortal wounds to each unit. Plus the "normal" damage done by the attacks.
A 280 pts model is able to literally devastate a block worth almost 1000 pts. On turn one.

We're talking about a model that (if properly played), can hit you in close combat in the first turn, wherever he wants, delivering tons of mortal wounds in a large area, and so disposable screening units won't help you, as it's basically a mini-nuke.
There are literally no secure ways to avoid such an attack.
Spreading your units is of a little use: at 2000 or 2500 pts there will be a sector of the battlefield where 3-4 units will be targettable, and anyway with units scattered across the field, you will lose the mandatory synergies, vital for us, that requires a certain proximity between heroes and units. And you won't be able to retaliate and kill the daemon, that will do his trick again.

There are armies that can replenish dead models for free and with relative ease (Tomb Kings, for example), but for us, there are only two ways to deal with such a threat:
- act first, and kill the daemon before its first turn
- have a set-up that can soften the damage

Now, we will see how:


Act first:

you need to kill the BoIR before it can act (or seriously wound it: this means that you need to inflict at least 10 wounds to it, since the damage of the otrageous carnage drops to 1 after 10 wounds taken).
This means that you need to be the first to deploy the army AND that you must have some deep strike unit to hit hard the thing.
The most obvious anser, IMO, is the Shadowtrike Starhost. Given to the rule in our battletome, we can set ALL the models of a starhost in the same time, so the 4 units of the starhosts (rippers, priest, 2 skinks/chama) will count as one unit. This should let you be the first one to finish, and the first one to begin.
You will need a unit of chama skinks and a unit of rippers.
Let's discuss about the rippers: a unit of 6 rippers should suffice, but the BoIR is not a so large model, and he could be shielded by some daemonic unit, so probably you cannot hit it with more than 3-4 rippers. It's up to you to decide to field a unit of 3 rippers or 6.
Let's say that your kamikaze unit is formed by 3 rippers: put the boat toad near the BoIR and attack.
Between the Warspears, the Slashing Claws and the Beaks (including the rule of one), on average you will inflict around 19 wounds with no rend; the daemon got saves 4+, so we're talking about an average of 9-10 wounds. It could suffice, or not, and you don't want to count on mere luck, right?
That's why you need to soften it also with some shooting.
5 chama skinks deliver 10 attacks. On average it's 3-4 wounds, with possibly a chance of one boosted by the starvenom.
So, with 3 rippers and 5 chama skinks (260 pts that you are putting basically with no support in front of the whole enemy's army) you will drop the daemon to a couple of wounds, and with some luck you will kill it.

You can improve your chances, of course. If you use an arcane vassal and an astrolith bearer, your Slann can also deliver direct damage to the Daemon, and / or summon something at shooting distance. It's a matter of how many points do you want to invest in this task, because those points will be put at risk of retaliation, and your target costs effectively 280 pts.
The important thng is that your army should include 1 or even 2 starhosts, to reduce to minimum the number of "deployments", so you can act first.

It's not perfect, but at least you will play a game with equal opportunities!


Specific set-up:

I don't think there is a "safe" set-up for us. Every army got some key units, and this is even truer for Seraphon. Our units work heavily on synergies and buffs, and so they require to stay near each other. There are exceptions (chama skinks, rippers and similar), but the backbone of our armies (dinosaurs and troops with heroes) are valid targets for the daemonic nuke.
AFAIK there's only one way to field a strong group of possible targets, able to survive and continue the fight. The Thunderquake Starhost.
The Thunderquake S. is a great battallion to field against daemons (tnx to the improved damage by the bastiladon/s), so it doesn't matter if there is the BoIR or not: if you know you are going to face daemons, the battallion will serve you well.

Form a Group with the EotG and 2 Bastiladons with solar beam, stick in it a Slann and an Eternity Warden, keep reserve points for an Astrolith Bearer. Shield the big Group with some disposable skinks.
The other unit (sallies / kroxies) must be kept away, at more than 8".
If the BoIR goes against the secondary target, your main force will be intact and you can wipe away it.
If it goes against you big Group... the blast and the combat damage will obliterate the skinks, and the nuke will damage all the dinosaurs, killing also the Warden that will save the Slann.
You could also pick the EotG as general, giving it an additional wound or the ability to negate wounds on 6s, so even in the case of a blast of 12 dam, it will survive.
In this attack you'll lose 220 points (the skinks and the Warden), then it's your turn; summon the BSB to reroll to hit rolls, the dinos will be all damaged, but they'll heal d3, and the daemon will be targeted by all your force (including the secondary unit of sallies), starting with some really heavy shooting of the Bastiladons and the effect of the EotG; only the close combat abilities of the EotG will be hampered.
When you'll fight the rest of the daemonic army, your dinos will be almost fully (or fully) healed.

 

[Tizianolol]

I have played 2 weeks ago vs a chaos player.. He played BoIR ,and another bloothirster ,
I killed the first with my oldblood on carnosaur and 10 skins chameleon . In shooting old blood got 18" d6 att 3+/2+( cuz deamons chaos) -1 /1
Plus my skins I dmg him and in combat I killed with oldblood . U can kill him in one turn too!

 

[Killer Angel]

This makes me happy
...but you still need to go first !

 

[Killer Angel]

Guys, do you have some request on an argument would you like to see developed?

 

[Kadanga]

Love the write-up @Killer Angel ! I've been stuck mentally on mortal wounds and how to defend yourself against them (apart from just stacking wounds).

I came across the Eldrich Council Archmage (120p) that has the Elemental Shield spell, casting value of 6 to cast and it provides an 18" shield around the archmage that gives all units within the shield a +6 ward save vs wounds AND mortal wounds. If you are running a mixed order army I would consider mixing him in, even though he is extremely squishy with his 6+ save.

 

[Canas]

Mortal wounds in in general, and ranged mortal wounds specificly, have relativly little going on in terms of counter strategies. You basicly have the following options:

Depending on the source:
General:

- Bring largely cannonfodder, mortal wounds are less valuable if you already only have a 6+ save to begin with...
- Target saturation, with enough stuff to shoot at at least something should be save
- Bring somehting like a bastilidon or that archmage with innate protection against mortal wounds.

Out of these, the only real "counter" would be the bastilidon, the others are just ways to make mortal wounds slightly less of a big deal. Target saturation & canonfodder don't work as a real "counter" since they'l never run out of ammo & you need a hell of a lot of targets to actually keep up with the amount of mortal wounds (my ~1100 points worth of stormforged already have 3 reliable sources of ranged mortal wounds, one of which is a small AoE effect. That's a lot of potential targets I can hit for ~1100 points). Essentially all target saturation and cannonfodder do is postpone execution, hopefully long enough for you to murder the source of the mortal wounds before you run out of troops.

And even the bastilidons will have limited effectiveness since you can't exactly bring an entire armies worth of units like that.
​

magic

- unbind the spell
- Effects that make spells less likely to hit (e.g. a lord celestant on stardrake)
​

Abilities

- If ranged, see ranged weapons
- If melee, see melee weapons​

Ranged weapons

- pray to the dicegods
​

Melee weapons

- Shoot the guy before he reaches you
- Use cheap troops to slow down the big scary thing.
​

As you can see magic has some limited interaction & melee is countered in essentially the same way you counter any other strong melee attacks. Ranged sources however have no actual interaction beyond the general "counters". From this it follows that you can do depressingly little against mortal wounds.

However, there's 1 additional trick you can potentially use: avoid the situation which triggers it. For example take our saurus Knights, they can do mortal wounds on the charge. A Obvious counter to this would be preventing them from charging. However, a great deal of mortal wounds don't have any particular requirements like this.

So in order of how much of an actual impact the counterstrategy makes:

1) Don't allow your opponent to trigger the requirements needed (e.g. prevent charges of saurus Knights)
2) Bring stuff with innate protection against mortal wounds
3) Against Melee mortal wounds: play the same as with any heavy hitting melee model
4) Bring stuff to unbind spells
5) Bring cheap cannonfodder so mortal wounds aren't (much) more valuable than normal wounds
6) Bring a metric ton of stuff, at some point they'l run out of stuff to hit you with.
7) Pray to the dicegods

O and 8) kill it before it kills you by going first or having longer range or spawning an assasin in its face or something along those lines... but this "counter" is the equivalent of saying "just win" as far as I am concerned since it doesn't actually adress the threat, it just requires you to win before the threat is capable of acting. So frankly even praying to the dicegods is more of a counter than that....