9th Age Poll: AoS gets points... where does this leave The 9th Age?

[Rikard]

I have one complaint about it, though - You just reminded me that I was one of the fools who bought end times hard backs and I was one of the people invested the fluff side of the matter, more than the game side. I was actually positioning myself to write some saleable stories at the moment that the future was yanked away from me.

Now I just write for enjoyment, and everyone is suffering the consequences. Thanks for picking the scab on that old wound, bro

Sa-a-a-ay, aren't you due to write more of your own fluff? For some reason, I lose my mind whenever I try to critique it. I think that is because it is good.

Well like I said, I am sure I came across a tad hypocritical, despite trying to play devil's advocate. I bought the hardback of the Thanquol book and I've written many pieces of warhammer fluff (and possibly may have even been continuing to do so even after the End Times...hard to deny the existence of that link). The Twice damned Saga I posted on TPV was entirely based within the warhammer world and I was and still am heavily writing and re-writing it (it was about 101 pages long when I originally posted it, now it's easily over 200).

The only thing that changed with the Warhammer world's demise was me sticking it in my own universe, but the changes that needed to be made have been minimal compared to all other alterations.

No wounds intended to be opened, because alive, dead, or saturated with lethal levels of radioactive substance Kirbium, I too am invested in the warhammer world. I spent money on warhammer, but I invested Time, joy and skill.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

You just reminded me that I was one of the fools who bought end times hard backs

I bought the hardback of the Thanquol book

Haha... I didn't buy any of the End Times books. In fact I invested $0 in The End Times. You could say that I felt a disturbance in the force.

 

[The Red Devil]

The fact is that I don't see 9th as a game system that will attract new players. It's not supported, so it's basically for existing players.
New players could join 9th only if attracted by friends that are already playing it.
AoS with points won't drain actual players from 9th... however, in the future, said new players will more easily go toward AoS, given that it's easier to play, it's supported in stores and now, tnx to points, will also gain new life in tournaments.

That is very good points. Unless 9th Age get their own promotion channel that actually reach new customers, the player base with time will dwindle down by itself.

Hopefully both will be able to survive side by side, as after all they do offer two different ways to play the game, and we are able to play both with the same models, assuming we did not use oval bases

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

and we are able to play both with the same models, assuming we did not use oval bases

GW really complicated things with that move.

 

[Rikard]

I should also chime in (totally forgot about this earlier), look at Avatar's of war's forums, their rules and names of characters and armies are from GW, but (yes the big BUT), with GW approval. (and once again, I can't find the link).

I believe one of the member's in charge of it is called Scareyshroomguy, he's also on warseer.

Watch this space, I'll have a dig around.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I should also chime in (totally forgot about this earlier), look at Avatar's of war's forums, their rules and names of characters and armies are from GW, but (yes the big BUT), with GW approval. (and once again, I can't find the link).

I really can't imagine why GW would approve AoW using their IP (I don't have any evidence to the contrary but I'm skeptical to say the least). AoW is a model company that produces minis that directly compete with GW's stuff. I can see GW not pursuing legal action because they might not have the necessary footing, but not outright approval.

 

[The Red Devil]

I really can't imagine why GW would approve AoW using their IP (I don't have any evidence to the contrary but I'm skeptical to say the least). AoW is a model company that produces minis that directly compete with GW's stuff

It is possible, since they already scrapped the IP, they might have "leased" it to them for a small share per sale.

 

[KillerK]

The thing is, T9A project is getting support from multiple companies, and it has a tendency to grow. It's something that GW can never ever match. I was very sceptical about the 9th age, but now I believe that it will dwarf AoS in a matter of years. There is a number of reasons.
1. Most of the great staff that made warhammer is gone. So there is not much people left who can actually write rules, or sculpt minis. Mean while People involved with T9A project are dishing some cool stuff out. Now you may say GW is a huge corpo, well it is but it doesn't have nearly as many people involved in as T9A, and with Crow funding, their huge budget isn't as big as advantage as it was 5-10 years ago. Now the thing where GW is loosing badly, is passion and efficiency. People involved in T9A have an unmatched passion for what their doing, something GW cannot match. Also it takes GW about 5 years to push a project out, form time of idea to product on shelf. It takes smaller companies weeks to do the same. A huge behemoth cant match that speed.

 

[Killer Angel]

The thing is, T9A project is getting support from multiple companies, and it has a tendency to grow.

By any chance, are you the same KillerK that's in the Tomb Kings forum?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The thing is, T9A project is getting support from multiple companies, and it has a tendency to grow. It's something that GW can never ever match.

While I acknowledge that the T9A folks have done and admirable job, I most definitely disagree with this statement. How is T9A something that GW could never match in terms of size and popularity? T9A will never have the following that 8th Edition had. T9A is unlikely to even match AoS in terms of popularity. While T9A is an infinitely better game than AoS, other factors swing in the favour of AoS (GW gaming spaces, model support from the largest producer of miniatures, "official rules vs. fan made rules, etc.).

To illustrate my point, I believe T9A would be virtually dead within a year if GW released WHFB 9th edition today. That is the reality of the situation. Of course GW is not releasing 9th edition, so it will be interesting to see how T9A can flourish in the void left behind by Warhammer's demise.

 

[Pinktaco]

When does something become official?
When backed by a company that also produces miniature?
When the employers are being payed?

For all I know:
We have our own IP, meaning that anybody who want to earn a profit needs a written permission from one of the ExB members.
We're supported by Shieldwolf miniatures, although naturally to a limited extend.
We're one of the systems to be played by ETC.

Saying that "T9A would die of GW did X" is useless. What's the purpose? I could come up with many issues that would be problematic for T9A, but most of them are useless to mention. Right now GW is doing their AoS thing and thats basically it and they're not going to relaunch with a WHFB 9th. Anybody who's foolishly holding out for that are tricking themselves.

For the time being there are 3 major contenders:
KoW, AoS and T9A.
We'll see how each fare in the coming years.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

When does something become official?
When backed by a company that also produces miniature?
When the employers are being payed?

For all I know:
We have our own IP, meaning that anybody who want to earn a profit needs a written permission from one of the ExB members.
We're supported by Shieldwolf miniatures, although naturally to a limited extend.
We're one of the systems to be played by ETC.

When does something become official?... certainly not when it carries the label "fan made". There can be a multitude of factors that contribute or detract from the officiality of a product/entity. However at the heart of it, I feel it comes down to the original authorship. In this case, GW (precisely employees employed by GW and hence "GW") created the game of Warhammer, while 9th Age took that creation and merely tweaked it. I would liken T9A to something like fan fiction. You can write a story about Harry Potter for instance (and it might very well be amazing), but the official cannon would restricted to the material released by J.K. Rowling.

In terms of T9A, the IP you mentioned would be the official IP for T9A, which is turn is an "unofficial" version of Warhammer. Having the support of Shieldwolf miniatures is a good start, though as you admit it is only to a limited extent. It in no way compares to the model support that GW provides its games, both in scope and in focus. GW had models for just about every unit + character in the game (with a few exceptions). Also Shieldwolf miniatures and T9A are not a single entity, so it opens up the possibility of differing ideas, motivations and directions. In any case it is not a unified and complete product as that released by GW.

Saying that "T9A would die of GW did X" is useless. What's the purpose?

I beg to differ. Its purpose was to emphasize my counter argument to KillerK's stance of "The thing is, T9A project is getting support from multiple companies, and it has a tendency to grow. It's something that GW can never ever match." Not only do I feel that GW could match T9A, but it could outright kill it if it so desired (or even inadvertently).

Right now GW is doing their AoS thing and thats basically it and they're not going to relaunch with a WHFB 9th. Anybody who's foolishly holding out for that are tricking themselves.

Which I actually clearly stated in my original post... "Of course GW is not releasing 9th edition, so it will be interesting to see how T9A can flourish in the void left behind by Warhammer's demise". I never expressed an intention of holding out for 9th edition, I was supporting my counterargument to KillerK's original statement by pointing out that the hypothetical release of 9th would destroy T9A.

To simplify, KillerK was basically arguing that T9A > GW/Warhammer. My argument is that not only is that untrue, but in reality T9A < GW/Warhammer. I'd go even as far as stating that...

Warhammer 8th (in its prime) > current ( AoS + KoW + T9A)

What will happen in the future... who knows? Though if I was a betting man I would wager that T9A never eclipses the levels that Warhammer achieved (in terms of community and popularity). I won't argue which game is better because that is quite subjective. You would choose T9A and I would choose 8th edition.


None of this is to say that a fan made game can not be great and successful. The continuation of Blood Bowl is a prime example how a fan maintained set of rules can survive and flourish for so long. It will be interesting to see what happens when GW re-releases the official product though.

 

[Warden]

I don't have much to add to this very interesting discussion that hasn't already been said, except:

Biggest thing that bothers me is how much the recent change has split the community across so many different lines. What was once a united community all enjoying a product (though flawed) is now split upon many different lines: a new weird system from the same company, an attempt by the gaming community to revive the old system, and completely new systems. There is nothing wrong with striking out on your own, but the game won't ever have the same kind of unity it had before with everyone going their separate ways.

This will hopefully cause a mini-revolution in improving all this disparate gaming systems in their attempts to swing the most customers/followers. Maybe GW caused this mess just to watch the world burn? Some people like that sort of thing...

So why has the reaction been such a toxic one to AOS, if change was not the issue?
I think there's a very large number of reasons for this, no balancing/points system is actually somewhere on the lower end of this scale.

1. Kirby...

 

[pendrake]

To address the original poll question:

AoS gets points...where does this leave The 9th Age?

A lot rides on how good/mediocre/bad/terribad the new point system is. If it turns out to be a transparent attempt to make new models much more points-effective than Out-Of-Production minis it will help T9A. If it is accurate and even handed to all lines of models new or old it will help AoS versus T9A.

T9A will still have ranked units, movement trays, and the previous (better? liked) mechanics for combat and magic.

 

[airjamy]

I still feel that AOS is aimed at a more casual crowd which is in my perspective a wrong basis to work from. Let's face it, tabletop miniature wargames are profoundly a ''hardcore'' hobby. To be able to play even a single normal sized game with your own models you need an investment of 100's of dollars, 10's of hours of painting and modelling and and entire afternoon to even start learning to play the game. The barrier of entry is really high. A hobby like Magic can be enjoyed in such a way, with competitive players spending 100's of dollars on rare cards and spending a lot of time to keep up with the meta. Players can also just buy a deck and play a few times around the kitchen table while not even using 90% of the main game's rules. Warhammer does not and cannot support such a ''casual'' mode in play due to the high barrier of entry.

I think that GW focussed on the casual fanbase because new players are the big spenders, and they thought that they could increase revenue by making the game more accessible, more casual and more small scale. I think that the whole idea of tabletop wargaming in all it's nerdiness and high barrier of entry is just not feasible as a hobby for 99% of the general population. The hardcore warhammer player, who does not have to be a tournament player mind you, appreciates deep and expansive lore, complex rule sets which you can discuss for days and beautiful and hard to paint and hard to assemble models as the investment involved with really starting out with the hobby already implies that hobbyists are to a certain extent fanatics in their chosen hobby. I think GW cannot really make AOS a good game without first changing this base way of thinking, wargaming has always been extremely niche, and it's nature does not permit it to be anything else.

To answer the question of the poll, adding point values does bring AOS somewhat closer to the more ''hardcore'' nature i envision Warhammer should have to be successful, but i think 9th age is a lot closer to this ideal then AOS will ever be in the coming years. AOS does have the advantage of being backed by GW and being a lot better known due to the fact it has store fronts dedicated to it, so it is really hard to say what the future will bring. With this in our mind, a split playerbase is bad for everyone, if we do not have enough opponents and fellows stuck in the same system of wargaming we will all get less interested in wargaming if stuff keeps going on like this.

 

[KillerK]

By any chance, are you the same KillerK that's in the Tomb Kings forum?

yes, its me.

 

[Killer Angel]

yes, its me.

I was almost 100% sure!
My undead incarnation is Unas the slayer.

 

[KillerK]

Good to know