9th Age Possible Solutions to 9th Age SA Problems

[protector]

So I am starting to compile things that I feel would be solutions to our army, as I have been taught not to complain without already having a solution to the problem. So here is my attempt at adding some items that I do not feel would be OP while still providing a much more varied and fluff filled army, updates to come.


1) How do you feel about the core rule book changes in regards to your army?
Just an idea to make challenges more exciting, as they should be quite the focus in any combat, also benefits direct confrontation.

For challenges add a buff/debuff element, if you refuse a challenge then the unit receives -1WS (lord to lord) or -2I (hero to hero) or both (lord refuses a hero) and no penalty if a hero refuses a lord, if you won a challenge then the unit gains +1WS (lord kills lord) or +2I (hero kills hero) and both for hero killing a lord for the next turn.

2) How do you feel about the common magic item changes in regards to your army?
Think about adding in an army general only magic item section, 50pts or less but provides more of an army effect with small effect larger area buffs, or one use only powers. This would provide a layer of tactics and promote army focus rather than just a super killing character build.

3) How do you feel about changes to the magic paths in regards to your army?
Add in the ability for a wizard to voluntarily lose a wound with no saves of any kind (including white magic attribute) allowed to add a single dice to cast or dispel. Basically powering a spell with their life force, this would balance poor winds of magic a bit while still providing a significant risk for later in the game. Limit it to a number of times equal to wizard level.

4) Special Army Rules
a) How do you feel about the special rules for army after the update?

• Cold Blooded – Remove this rule from everything except characters, and possibly a few chosen units. That would bring cost down a lot on units and add in tactics of characters inside units, it would also promote more characters but with less fully tooled out builds. Cuatl Lord would provide cold blooded rule in his inspiring presence bubble, with a discipline that could expand his inspiring presence range, this would give him a unique ability and set him apart.
• Born Predator – Bring back natural 6 adds an attack, no one thought it was OP and it allows for less abuse. It can also be combined with other unit options to increase to natural 5+ with warlord’s totem option etc.
• Telepathic Link – Keep the range but add a -1 modifier to cast, with Cuatl options to get +4 to cast (Like taurosaur bonus) it would balance out the debuff with certain builds back to the max +3. With this balancing it shouldn’t effect cost of the unit very much at all.

5) Units
a) How do you feel about our units after the update?

• Saurian Warlord – Add the following totems (Max 50pts):
  • Piranha = AP1 (20pts)
  • Jaguar = +2 M (20pts)
  • Crocodile = innate defense +1 (On foot only) (25pts)
  • Viper = Lightning reflexes (30pts)
  • Bred to Lead = Unit gains BP, if it already has BP then it triggers on a 5+ (on average this will be less effective than WotDG Inspire Greatness, but it will be fun and fluffy and still effective) (25pts)
  • Eternal Guardian = No model on a palanquin in his unit may be attacked while this model still remains (all attacks that could target a palanquin model can instead target this model) (25pts)
  • Huanchi’s Champion = A single Raptor Rider unit may be chosen as core (30pts)
  • Apex Predator = +2WS (30pts)
• Skink High Priest – No change
• Cuatl Lord – Add some unique rules to this model to justify cost and fluff, possibly the following:
  • Meditation – If this model does not cast/dispel during a magic phase it may add 1 dice to his pool in the next phase.
  • World Shaper – Bound spell one use only, target a single terrain feature, you may move that terrain 2d6 inches in any direction or remove it from the board.
  • Telepathic Control = All SA units within this models inspiring presence range gain the cold blooded rule.
• Saurian Veteran – Add the following totems (Max 30pts):
  • Piranha = AP1 (15pts)
  • Jaguar = +2 M (15pts)
  • Crocodile = innate defense +1 (On foot only) (20pts)
  • Viper = Lightning reflexes (20pts)
  • Eternal Guardian = No model on a palanquin in his unit may be attacked while this model still remains (all attacks that could target a palanquin model can instead target this model) (20pts)
  • Apex Predator = +2WS (25pts)
• Skink Captain – Increase leadership to 7, along with cold blooded this will help to include him more into other units and with lighter builds. Give different spawnings such as the following:
  • Red Crested – Increase stats as such 5WS, 4T, 4A (sky rider and raptor mount options)
  • Jungle Born – May take a single skink hunter unit as core (no mount options)
  • Chameleon – Increase stats as such 6BS, 2A, 8LD (no taurosaur mount option)
• Skink Priest – If taken with a Cuatl they may exchange a single spell known for the signature spell of whatever lore the Cuatl takes.
• Caiman Ancient – Add BSB option, increase stats to the same as Ogre Khan, add the following upgrades (choose one):
  • Weathered Scales - +1 innate defense
  • Pyramid Builder - +1S
  • Pack Leader – Caiman unit receives +1M
  • Massive Jaws – gains MW2
  • Veteran Fighter – A single skink braves unit may take a caiman for every 6 skinks up to a maximum of 6 caiman. This hero must be deployed with that unit and may never leave it.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

For challenges add a buff/debuff element, if you refuse a challenge then the unit receives -1WS (lord to lord) or -2I (hero to hero) or both (lord refuses a hero) and no penalty if a hero refuses a lord, if you won a challenge then the unit gains +1WS (lord kills lord) or +2I (hero kills hero) and both for hero killing a lord for the next turn.

This seems interesting, but what about wizards? Even a lord level wizard will get pasted easily by a combat hero. It might be too much of a detriment to the unit bunkering the wizard.

Caiman Ancient – Add BSB option, increase stats to the same as Ogre Khan, add the following upgrades (choose one):

• Weathered Scales - +1 innate defense
• Pyramid Builder - +1S
• Pack Leader – Caiman unit receives +1M
• Massive Jaws – gains MW2
• Veteran Fighter – A single skink braves unit may take a caiman for every 6 skinks up to a maximum of 6 caiman. This hero must be deployed with that unit and may never leave it.

Sounds like fun! I think the Caiman Ancient is one of the biggest missed opportunities thus far.

 

[The Sauric Ace]

The Caiman hero could really use an overhaul! Your proposals are quite a decent ideas, for such change to the model; the one problem I see, seems to be that the people accepting such proposals, dislikes the caiman hero, as a concept in general. I fear that is its main enemy, and it has been so ever since it was first made a model for the army, back then it had its struggle as well. I know Pinktaco fought long and hard just to give it something to make it Work, for the army.

Poor caiman hero, just isen't given enough love

 

[The Red Devil]

that the people accepting such proposals, dislikes the caiman hero, as a concept in general. I fear that is its main enemy, and it has been so ever since it was first made a model for the army, back then it had its struggle as well.

If this is true, then this show that there is clear bias against SA from at least part of the decision makers.

I guess this might the largest problem with 9th Age, that what is supposed to be a fair and balanced process, is far from it (at least from an outside side-point, reviewing the different army books).

We have a major issue in options and synergy due to they want to remove what made our army usable, when that is done additional choices and options has to be added to the army. If not we get into the mess we currently are in, with very few real options.

 

[The Red Devil]

So I am starting to compile things that I feel would be solutions to our army, as I have been taught not to complain without already having a solution to the problem. So here is my attempt at adding some items that I do not feel would be OP while still providing a much more varied and fluff filled army, updates to come.

I like the suggestions so far, having these would give us a lot more options, and would lead to quite different lists as well since it cater to different play styles.

 

[pendrake]

Why remove cold-blooded from all units?

How about removing stupidity from Cold Ones? They are supposed to be this savage and rapacious jungle predator, but every now and then they suddenly act like placid bovines.. ..how did that ever make sense?

 

[The Sauric Ace]

If this is true, then this show that there is clear bias against SA from at least part of the decision makers

Don't know if there's a specific bias towards us, but I could be wrong the general idea was, that large sized hero was a thing for only a small selection of army books and that a caiman hero, would be little different from the scar veteran.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The Caiman hero could really use an overhaul! Your proposals are quite a decent ideas, for such change to the model; the one problem I see, seems to be that the people accepting such proposals, dislikes the caiman hero, as a concept in general. I fear that is its main enemy, and it has been so ever since it was first made a model for the army,

If this is true, then this show that there is clear bias against SA from at least part of the decision makers.

I guess this might the largest problem with 9th Age, that what is supposed to be a fair and balanced process, is far from it (at least from an outside side-point, reviewing the different army books).

There is a clear bias against SA. That poor Caiman ancient is always under constant assault. However, Dwarven Holds are gifted T5 monstrous infantry with multiple woulds (d3) and it's no problem.

• Why can Dwarves get a brand new unit (with no historical precedence) and we have so much difficulty getting a decent new character (with historical precedence)?
• Why can Dwarves have T5 monstrous infantry but Caimans could not keep their T5 upgrade?

Let's be honest, this isn't exactly a new issue. I've heard many stories that the pre-cursor, Swedish comp, unjustly over-comped certain armies and were overly lenient with others. I've never played comp, so this is based on what I've merely heard, but I've heard these rumblings from many sources. I wasn't sure if I should take them at face value, but after seeing these 9th Age shenanigans I suspect they were true.

 

[Pinktaco]

If this is true, then this show that there is clear bias against SA from at least part of the decision makers.

I guess this might the largest problem with 9th Age, that what is supposed to be a fair and balanced process, is far from it (at least from an outside side-point, reviewing the different army books).

We have a major issue in options and synergy due to they want to remove what made our army usable, when that is done additional choices and options has to be added to the army. If not we get into the mess we currently are in, with very few real options.

One RT member dislike the Caiman, but this person didn't see the need for adding any characters to army so it wasn't specifically targeted to us.
In fact the first beta release was a mess because people were allowed to add up to two units IF THE ARMY NEEDED IT. This was largely abused and even O&G - and Army with a massive amount of units - received a new unit.

Obviously there are some degree of bias, but they do 2/3 votes so if 2/3 of the RT (7 members) accept something.

What I do think though is that our army suffer from 8th ed where skinks, heavy magic and cowboy spam was the dominating playstyle. The RT have tried their best to reduce the effectiveness of such a playstyle and in the process it's been whittled away to more or less nothing.

Other armies have seen this as well i. e. Dread Elves was hit hard on the fast cav with flying character annoyance, WDG is becoming more or an army instead of a band of super human like models. Sylvan Elves have seen a heavy nerf to their gunline/avoidance list as well.

I think/hope that post ETC these things can perhaps be tweaked to be more available without being the dominating build, but that's just what I think based on having more time to carefully balance each book.

 

[Haemoglobin]

The biggest issue I am finding with 9th Age right now is the fact that behind all of the Army supports, Army Book Committee etc there is still only 1 group of 7 players that decide everything (this being the RT).

The RT ultimately decides everything and can easily choose to disregard feedback. I am not saying that they will disregard feedback, but in the end it is their choice and their choice only.

I am doing my best to try and convince the RT that there are more issues that can be solved with their usual method. Their normal plan would be to apply only point reductions/increases and a single redesign in the April release. But because of the large amount of changes and nerfs, both needed an illogical ones, their normal plan is simply not enough. One allowed redesign is far too little to fix what he have now.

 

[The Sauric Ace]

I agree with your assumption Haemoglobin, I dont reckon they'll disregard feedback completely. However they are a small group of people and with this follows both good and bad thing: They'll have a better idea of what and where they want the game to move to, but as mentioned they then also run the risk of seeing only their own visions of the game.

Perhaps we suffer a bit from the fact that we had quit a change in ABC, during the games development. A common team of people during the whole project would or could (perhaps) have given the army a better general design.

I reckon that we have lost a lot of flair with this new update, the suggestion that people are making are however compelling. The fear is that the final project won't be able to support the expectation, following a disappointing release, such as the recent one.

 

[Haemoglobin]

We lost quite a lot of flair with update, the 0.99 version has implemented changes that were waaay too harsh on the internal balance of the army.

Externally we might be okay, but internally it is a mess.

 

[The Sauric Ace]

Very true. It's not like balance, army vs army, is my main concern, either ...

 

[Haemoglobin]

I hope that the RT team sees this and will take action.

Pretty sure they are getting annoyed by my constant asking of questions and linking to the feedback thread

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I hope that the RT team sees this and will take action.

Hopefully they do take it seriously, because otherwise they are likely to turn away a large percentage of the player base. Maybe they will end with just the 7 of them (rules team) playing in their basements .

 

[The Sauric Ace]

Alternatively we could make our rules and find a Lustria-Online-Basment, to met and play our rule set

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Alternatively we could make our rules and find a Lustria-Online-Basment, to met and play our rule set

I'm likely to play straight up 8th Edition or take a few of the good things from 9th Age (such as being able to bypass a character wall and attack rank and file, toning down of cannons, toning down of 6 dicing uber spells) and add them to 8th. Barring a miracle, I don't think 9th Age will be my choice of games. There are just too many things that bother me about it.

 

[Pinktaco]

It's funny because that's EXACTLY how the project started
However, the moment the founders gave other people power it turned messy very fast. After the TAC release we saw a large power creep among almost all armies and as mentioned new units where units weren't needed. The game turned into something that wasn't the intention at that moment imo.

The intention wasn't to spin it so much out of control, however in conjunction with becoming big (main system for ETC etc) it have become increasingly hard. For instance the KoE community keeps complaining because they can't have it their way and each time the RT is reluctantly giving them a little more. Latest addition to their book was the green knight despite no other armies getting a new model so late. If they do they're damned and if they don't they're damned

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

It's funny because that's EXACTLY how the project started
However, the moment the founders gave other people power it turned messy very fast. After the TAC release we saw a large power creep among almost all armies and as mentioned new units where units weren't needed. The game turned into something that wasn't the intention at that moment imo.

The intention wasn't to spin it so much out of control, however in conjunction with becoming big (main system for ETC etc) it have become increasingly hard. For instance the KoE community keeps complaining because they can't have it their way and each time the RT is reluctantly giving them a little more. Latest addition to their book was the green knight despite no other armies getting a new model so late. If they do they're damned and if they don't they're damned

Such is the nature of life. In the end they have to follow their vision. Although it is looking like their vision does not line up to my personal taste, that is absolutely okay (though much like a Dwarf I will probably grumble about it ).

As with anything in life...

• You can't please all of the people all of the time
• You can't please some of the people all of the time
• The best you can hope for is to please some of the people some of the time!

 

[The Red Devil]

I was reading some in our section of the 9th Age forum today, and noticed that a lot of the people that post does not play SA, but go there to complain about how OP we are.

There was many examples of this, but there was one member that standout, one of the many things he complained about was how Stegs were OP due to massing monsters was auto win, referring to a recent tournament. When someone later posted the places and stegs per list the ones that played SA had in the tournament, the ones who did that was far down on the list proving it was not a problem at all. Still they were nerfed.

If the staff is accepting all kind of complaints as valid, and acting on them it is bad. Both since you have no idea of the skill level of the member making the claim, nor if it actually is correct. The fact that 100 persons say the round is flat, does not make it true (to put it at an extreme).

Perhaps that is where our problem is, the fact that there is several good players using SA and by that getting high on the tournament lists. Which for some people automatically means that the only reason they won was due to SA is OP, and they start spamming that we need to get nerfed. In reality, I am sure that anyone that is good enough to win a tournament, could take almost any army and do the same.

Note. I am not saying parts of our 0.11 did not need to be nerfed as it did. But using a sledgehammer was the wrong approach

Externally we might be okay, but internally it is a mess.

I think this depends what you put into "externally", right now we got a broken army book, where many of the units are auto-non include.

If we look at the broader external picture, this means our competitive lists basically will be the same, since we have too few options. Personally I believe this show that we are far from okay. Especially if that too many bring the same list to a tournament, indicate that a nerf is needed

What I do think though is that our army suffer from 8th ed where skinks, heavy magic and cowboy spam was the dominating playstyle. The RT have tried their best to reduce the effectiveness of such a playstyle and in the process it's been whittled away to more or less nothing.

That is the problem I tried to point out as well.

Most of us understand that our 8th Ed. competitive list consisted mainly of skink clouds, cowboys and magic. That they wanted to direct us in another direction, is wonderful. The problem is the way they went at it, with nerf being the solution.

For this to actually work, we have to get something on the other side. You cannot take away from one side of our army, and then say its ok due to we took some everyone else as well. It has to be equalized according to the play style they want us to use moving forward.

To make it worse, even the units they want us to use has become auto-non include units , due to either price, stats line or nerfs tied to them.

Latest addition to their book was the green knight despite no other armies getting a new model so late. If they do they're damned and if they don't they're damned

So what you are actually telling us, is that we need to nag more? @Haemoglobin seems you are on the right track, keep up the good work!