9th Age 9th Age - Saurian Ancients Sneak Peak

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well, I previously asked the question regarding when we might see a sneak peak at the upcoming changes to the Saurian Ancients. As the old adage goes: "be careful what you wish for...".



Source: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/blog/i...ng-changes-to-the-saurian-ancients-army-book/

I figured that we would receive some (deserved) nerfs, but this seems a little bit excessive. Some of the changes I agree with but others seem over the top or simply flavorless. Collectively as a whole it seems rather harsh.

As this post will get excessively long in a very short time, I'll leave a more in depth analysis for later on. In short, I hope things are not as bleak as they might seem to be. Overall, judgement can not truly be levied until the full "official" release (in April I believe).

So far I think the prophet of Sotek's message to the forces of Lustria might look something like this...

Spoiler: NSFW... do not open if easily offended. You've been warned

Thoughts, comments, discussion, rage, joy, indifference, ...

 

[Mr Phat]

I am yelling things into the night that should go unheard for children.

But we will see....not sure Myanus is truly prepared.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

But we will see....not sure Myanus is truly prepared

Hahaha

I agree with your post on the 9th Age website:

Individually the changes may not be that bad (and some were admittedly deserved and needed), but as a whole I think they may have gone overboard. Of course, as you mentioned, we can't make any final judgments until we see the whole picture. However, at the moment it is at the very least slightly worrisome. I read over the changes to the Warriors of the Dark Gods and there was a mix of buffs and nerfs. In that case everything seemed very reasonable, but here it seems like 95% nerfs.

Which changes do you dislike the most?

For me the worst changes are...

1. Changes to our core skinks (removal of poison, shifting of the hunters to special)
2. Caiman nerf
3. Reduction in the Slann's ability to take disciplines

 

[arnau_27396]

1 and 2 also.
I strongly believe that T5 caimans were an amazing option, and if they felt it was unbalanced I'd ifinitely prefer a huge price increase rather than giving us a shitty light armour.

 

[Rettile]

the nerfs have gone too far.
Things i don't like:

• Slann: with changes in magic, not-so-op disciplines, high cost and the skink high priest challange he was already too expensive for what he accomplished. Curious to see the changes, but not happy at all;
• Caimans: I don't know what you think about it, but IMO they're not worth anymore (again);
• Skinks: please. Take our army flavour and throw it in the toilet.

Things I like:

• Spearback/Sally merging;
• Small carno changes.

On the rest I'm just very, very, very, very doubtful.

I add a couple of my posts in T9A forum in the spoilers, I'm curious to know if you guys agree with my point of view:

Spoiler: Post 1

In my opinion, we've lost too much. Not talking only about power level, though. Call me crazy but I like flavour, army traditions, rules with a sense

Born predator: change the name of the rule if carnosaurs can't have it, please. "Born fighter" could be better if only soldiers, and no monsters, can have it. I don't like the fact that our fighty characters won't benefit from one of the two racial special rules we have: they already were not-so-customizable, they have 0 flavour now unless you field them with hand weapon or spear;

Caimans: halberds are more attractive, yes. The problem here is that T5 was probably the main reason why they were used, and weren't in 8th, and a light armour isn't nearly as good. I'm not telling it's a wrong change, but coupled with the price increase it COULD be too much, time will tell. Add the BP loss if they use great weapons... I really don't know if i should field them with a life wizard or light wizard, or if I should field them at all. I'll have to try them out. No problem for caimans in skrox units IMO;

Carnosaurs: I like the small one changes, but did the Alpha need BOTH a stat nerf and the shard nerf? I don't think so actually, we'll see if I'm right or not;

Disciplines: waiting to see the changed ones, but I really hope they're not heavyly nerfed since they weren't OP. I also hope we're not locked to "max 2 disciplines", the Cuatl is either "pimp it hard or leave it home", and i don't wanna leave home the [central piece/supreme leader/keeper of the majority of the "army powers"] of our army. And if he stays home temple guards stays with him, we all know it;

Regarding skinks: I don't wanna sound too negative, but I couldn't agree less here. In my opinion this is a heavy hit NOT for our power level (i could live with that, but IMO this change actually changes little in this regard) but to our army identity: poison shooters are vital for our army concept just as powerful magic, and core is their place. Also, it won't work as you intended: many players will keep fullfilling their core with skinks (skink/caiman units or big poison-in-melee units). Aaaaand, we have 3 core options now, including swarms. I really hope to see a step backwards in the next updates, because this army is starting to sound a bit different from "my" army;

BS reduction on the chiefs: it's fine, but it will make the magical bow a lot less useful, please think about it;

Spearbacks: merging them with sallyes was probably the best option, well done;

Taurosaurs: curious to try them out, but it sounds ok. I'm a bit worried for the engine, tho: we all knew the -2 casting value would have been toned down, but are there any other changes?

I'm curious regarging the standard and predatory roar.

Some last comments:

• curious (and doubtful) regarding raptors riders, now they'll have to compete with poisoned shooting aswell;
  
• we need more core flexibility;
  
• reading again the first two points, maybe you should consider raptor riders in core;
  
• remember our anonymous fighty characters when the time to add options comes;
  
• magic was nerfed by the core rules, poison is being hitted, monsters aswell: we still want our army, not a new one, so keep its flavour in one way or another. We play SA for magic, for poisoned guerrilla, for dinos (big and small) and for though scaly guys: only the last one thing isn't enough. Just a memo.

Spoiler: Post 2

please stop suggesting to give saurus warriors or caimans shooting weapons, it's simply against the concept of our army.

Anyway, if the poisoned-shooting spam was the problem you could remove throwing weapons at all from the braves (maybe making them a "close combat spawn", "red crested skinks", with a minor close combat buff like WS3 T3) and keep hunters in core with poisoned javelins/blowpipes. It would be max 4 poison-shooting units, with your solutions they're max 3 (so always 3): not a huge difference, right? But with your solution we have 3 units in core which is too few.

I'd like to hear the staff opinion about this idea, if possible.

Bottom line: i understand you guys have to make all the units playable, but making the core of the army boring isn't a good solution

 

[Haemoglobin]

I am worried about these changes. It is basically one long list of nerfs.

Some were needed:

Spear back nerf
Starfall Shard nerf
Godly Engine nerf

Some really weren't needed:

BP nerf on GWs, Magical weapons and Carnos
Loss of MW on baby carnosaur and Taurosaur
Loss of all Poison shooting in core

We can't make final judgment yet but I don't like how this will end. It really depends on how point values have been changed. I am hoping to see a general decrease in point values for the Saurus Characters and Carnosaurs, because thats the only thing standing between them being useful and them being shelved.

It is just a huge round of nerfing instead of smaller nerfs. They hit our army across the board instead of only the things that really needed adressing.

 

[GCPD]

Well. I sure am glad that I've been obsessing over Dark Elves recently, and haven't been paying SA much attention at all. Because this sure is painful.

In the first instance, I accept that 9th age is looking to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the power level of all armies. I also recognise that SA were overperforming and needed nerfs. I also understand that Hunters were removed from Core because they are essentially an auto-include (I looked over the Sheffield Slaughter lists, and it stood out that practically every SA Core was identical).

Having agreed that the diagnosis is correct, though, I'm not sure if the proscribed treatment is the right one.

My understanding is that it's still going to be possible to take cheap Skirmishing Skinks in Core through upgrades, and there are still Jungle Swarms so the option for cheap chaff in Core remains. But all that chaff will now achieve is redirection: it can't be relied upon for harassment at all, because it's now all dependent on combat with terrible stats.
Meanwhile, removing Poison from Javelins still guts the Lizardmen identity.

On top of that, this takes a Core section which was already pretty uninspiring and fairly limited, and makes that problem worse. Core Skinks of any kind - Skirmish, combined, bunkers, chaff units, medium-sized fire bases - are limited to 4 maximum because they are all upgrades to the same unit entry. There are only 2 other unit entries in this entire section now, and one of them is Swarms. WTF. Bearing in mind that the limited options in Lizardmen Core was already a major complaint from 8th edition, the solution that's been proposed has been to limit it even further?

The solution seems simple. Remove Poison from Skink Braves, set unit size to 20+. Upgrade to melee poison at 1ppm, Red-Crested Skinks (WS3) at 2PPM. May take Full Command options as normal. May swap javelin + shield to 2hand weapons. May take Kroxigor. These are your combat Skinks.

Move Skink Hunters back to Core with Poison Javelins (may swap to blowpipes), 6ppm, remove Skirmish. May buy Skirmish at 2ppm: max TWO Skink Hunter units may be upgraded to Skirmish, lose Shields when upgraded. Unit sizes 10-20, capped at 10 if Skirmish. No command options.

Full Skink Poison Cloud takes a hit (max 4 Poison units, only 2 of which can Skirmish), Poison units still available in smaller numbers acting in a support role (as it should be). 80 poison shots still an option if you want to spend 480 points on ranked T2 Skinks that can't score, can't swift reform, and can't march and shoot, but could be limited still further by restricting Hunter unit sizes to 5-10 instead. Everyone is happy.

On the PF front, I'm not totally opposed to this nerf as it's in line with Lightning Reflexes now in that taking the best weapon available (Great Weapon) loses the bonus. I don't see why it should affect magic weapons, though. Everyone is just going to go super tanky with the magical allowance and take a halberd, instead.

 

[serbianwolf]

i really dont like the changes, flavourless, over - nerfing, not thought through IMO.

the changes @NIGHTBRINGER pointed out i dislike the most....

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Well as pretty much everyone has said, some nerfs were probably right.

Howeever, I think the Carnosaur loosing D3 multiple wounds takes away the flavour. Sure we have the Alpha but still. If you don't want it to have D3 multiple wounds, don't call it a Canrosaur.

The born predator rule, not working sometimes I hate, really, what is the point then. If it is an army special rule, then the army should be able to use it.

Regarding Caimans, then I took them bevause, toughness 5, not because they have been boosted to Initiative 2 since 8th, not because of the option for halberds.

The Skink Chief now having BS4, I don't think it its unreasonable, but maybe it could have been something like, that the Chief is not accustomed to the giant bow, and gets -1 to hit if he chooses to fire it.

With the Taurosaurs, I can live without sharpened horns, but it did make it more interesting. Maybe another kind of upgrade to take its place?

I don't know about the Slann, as I have not played with one in 9th.

 

[protector]

I was expecting some heavy handed nerfing, and I was not disappointed unfortunately. I can agree with a lot of it but there are some things that it feels like it came from something besides a need for external balance.

1) the alpha was nerfed on multiple levels, losing BP was probably the nail in its coffin for me if combined with a reduction in WS. Without higher WS or the ability to regulate damage with BP it won't be able to perform against a high number of monsters, especially at his price point. I would hope to see him still played but I believe we will see almost everyone using the baby carno now due to significantly better defense and a much cheaper cost for only a little less consistent attacking power. Maybe not, I would still play with him because the model is awesome as long as the nerf doesn't go too awful deep

2) really disappointed to see the guards get nerfed, they didn't seem unbalanced compared to other units. I was very much hoping to see them get access to spawnings just like chosen can also get marks, before they were hard to justify compared to upgraded saurus, now they are going to probably be a little less useful than core saurus.

3) I really don't like agreeing with the crowd but caimens losing T5 and no BP with GWs means I will only rarely field them. They just won't have the survivability that is needed, especially with 9th age providing AP bonuses everywhere, that 3+ armor save just won't cut it and not having BP with GW means my primary use of them is severely impacted. Not saying they aren't playable, just that I doubt they will be used much as other options.

I'm a little confused at why BP had to be nerfed, it functioned much the same way as PF except instead of making your great rolls better it makes your poor rolls better, so a more even damage output instead of a much greater opportunity for damage output. statistically they come out to be almost identical, and no one had any issue with this rule in 8th, it was actually thought to be a very minor buff.

Also maybe it was just the wording and I do like the fact that poison shooting is moved to special, but skinks should not ever be forced into a more close combat role, they are worse than common goblins in close combat (forest goblins are now significantly cheaper with the same shooting stats and skirmish ability as skinks in core BTW). The Old Ones never wanted skinks to fight hand to hand, they were created to not fight in close combat, their points reflect the fact that they are great at shooting and suck at close combat. If you downgrade their points to 3 each maybe 4 with poisoned CC attacks then that would make some sense, although it would still violate the idea behind skinks. It is kind of like saying the warriors in WotDG are too good in close combat, Khorne never wanted that, so now they are all getting bows with BS2 and losing their armor, yes they can now shoot but they still suck at it compared to anyone else at the same points.

I really like the idea of merging spearbacks into rare with salamanders. It reduces the spam factor and we really didn't have a large rare section anyways, makes sense and balances the game.

I really like taking the MW D3 from the baby carnosaur, that was just too deadly a combo at that price point, it was something I found to need adjusted my first game in 9th, along with spearbacks. Honestly just having a MB mount option for our characters has me really excited, the old metal carno fits perfectly on those bases so I'm really pumped about this choice.

I really like moving poison shooting to special, I think this needs a very substantial price adjustment to skinks in core though, use goblins as a basis because they have very similar stats and abilities. Poison is a part of our armies, it always has been, but when people spam it then it is really frustrating to play against, I like the balance of now needing to decide against other special options if you want to get a lot of poison shots. On the flip side though I really feel that skinks need to be more in line with the cost of goblins or skaven troops, that or give them WS3 T3 like every other bottom tier chaff unit.

I really like raptors being cheaper, I would like to see that unit being used a lot more often and it should be at the power level of other army knight units.

Overall I think there were some great changes, and everything that I saw as necessary to tone down was handled. I do think some items were over nerfed, mostly due to one nerf bleeding into another unit that was already nerfed, and there were some areas I was really hoping would be buffed/addressed that were not unfortunately. I am looking forward to the new version coming out and seeing all the different builds that come out from it, very excited to see the different synergies that were hinted at.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

#1 Translation:

• Born Predator has been removed from both versions of Carnos
• Born Predator has been removed from models using GWs or magical weapons

Fluff-wise it seems silly that magical weapons would inhibit the model's born predator instincts. Carnos needed a nerf, so that is justified. Caimans with GWs losing born predator really hurts.

#2 Translation:

• Baby Carnos lose multiple wounds (d3) and receive a points reduction. .
• Saurian Warlords can now take baby Carnos as mounts.
• Alpha Carno gets a stat nerf
• Starfall shard now only grants Fireborn and Hard Target

The Carnos definitely needed to be toned down. We'll see how this balances out in the end. I like that the MW(d3) has been removed from the baby Carno, helps differentiate it from its bigger brother. It will be interested to see how big the point reduction is.

#3 Translation:

• Slann now have reduced allowance for taking disciplines
• Some disciplines have been changed

I absolutely hate this change. The Slann should be a magic juggernaut and with the general reduction of magical potency as part of the main rules, I don't think this was justified. Seems like a major regression for the 9th Age. Possible deal breaker?

#4 Translation:

• Skink hunters moved to special
• Skink braves only have non-poisoned javelins now
• Skink braves can be taken in smaller units
• Skink braves gain a cheap upgrade for poison in close combat
• Skink braves can be made to skirmish

This is the worst change of them all. Core skirmished skinks with poisoned shooting are at the heart of what the Lizardmen are. This is one of my biggest concerns with the 9th Age... balance at all costs even above fun, flavour, fluff, diversity, history, etc. Our limited selection of core choices has always been something I didn't like about Lizardmen, now instead of improving upon this the 9th Age seems to have exasperated it. Definitely a possible deal breaker.

#5 Translation:

• Skink chiefs have had their BS reduced to 4
• Stegadon/Taurosaur mount costs more points

I think the BS5 bolt thrower stegadons were a bit much and needed to be curbed a bit. I am sad however that this change will have the side effect of ruining the Terradon Skink Chief with a Serpent bow that I wanted to build. Overall not too bad though.

#6 Translation:

• Temple Guard receive a slight points increase
• Temple Guard can no longer be weapon masters

This seems unnecessary; I didn't think that Temple Guard were overpowered.

#7 Translation:

• Caimans lose the T5 upgrade option
• Caimans gain a light armour option
• Caimans will cost more when fielded in large units
• Small-medium units will cost less??? maybe? depends on what is meant by "rewarded"

This is very concerning for me. One of my personal reasons for transitioning from 8th edition to 9th Age was that Kroxigors were finally made to be a useful worthwhile unit. Feedback suggested that they were too powerful, but I think this nerf (alongside of no born predator for GW wielding models) might be too extreme. I really hope they aren't relegated to uselessness again. Additionally, in my opinion Kroxigors have to be fielded in larger units because of their poor initiative. Possible deal breaker.

#8 Translation:

• Spearbacks have been moved to rare
• Spearbacks and Salamanders merged as one unit (different options)
• Spearbacks/Salamanders are reduced to S4

This is one of the best changes. It was extremely neccessary and seems to be well executed. My only (small) gripe would be the reduction to S4. Overall makes sense.

#9 Translation:

• Rare Taurosaur/Stegadon received an increase in points
• Engine of the Gods has been nerfed
• Taurosaur lost its multiple wounds (d3) upgrade
• Taurosaur has gained a more reliable impact hit

Fair enough, I'm curious to see what this more reliable impact hit looks like.

#10 Translation:

• Totem of Mixoatl banner has been changed
• Predatory Roar has been changed
• Raptor Riders receive a points reduction (especially for smaller units)

There must be some mistake... how did a buff get mixed in here?! Raptor riders needed a buff, I'm curious to see their new points cost.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I strongly believe that T5 caimans were an amazing option, and if they felt it was unbalanced I'd ifinitely prefer a huge price increase rather than giving us a shitty light armour.

My thoughts exactly. Caimans need to be survivable to be of any use, otherwise they are neutered before they even have the chance to strike.

Things i don't like:

• Slann: with changes in magic, not-so-op disciplines, high cost and the skink high priest challange he was already too expensive for what he accomplished. Curious to see the changes, but not happy at all;
• Caimans: I don't know what you think about it, but IMO they're not worth anymore (again);
• Skinks: please. Take our army flavour and throw it in the toilet.

Precisely... flavour of the army straight down the shitter. I'm worried about the Caimans too... we'll see once we see their points cost.

Things I like:

• Spearback/Sally merging;
• Small carno changes.

Also agreed. You raised some great points in your 9th Age forum posts. I think many of us are sharing those feelings.

It is just a huge round of nerfing instead of smaller nerfs. They hit our army across the board instead of only the things that really needed adressing.

Exactly! Other armies seemed to have received a good mix of buffs and nerfs. We were nerfed hard.

On top of that, this takes a Core section which was already pretty uninspiring and fairly limited, and makes that problem worse.

Our core is pretty poor in contrast with other armies. This is definitely not a good change for us.

 

[Mr Phat]

you know what is grinding my gears?

Warriors have better shooting options in core now.

Barbarians 60 pts 15 models,
may add up to 35 models 4 pts/model
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7
Infantry 25x25mm base
Alliance: Mark of the Dark Gods (True Chaos)
Armour: Light Armour
Options: pts May replace True Chaos with another Mark of the Dark Gods 1 / model All models replace Light Armour with Additional Hand Weapons free All models may take Shields 1 / model Flails 1 / model Spears 1 / model Throwing weapons 2 / model Great weapons 3 / model May upgrade one model to each of the following: Champion 10 Musician 10 Standard Bearer 10 - May become the Veteran Standard Beare

 

[Haemoglobin]

@Mr Phat

Yea I know that is pretty painful to see. Looking at the thread I noticed that skirmishing Skinks in Core would be 75 points (for 10 I assume). 75 points that will just die horribly to everything and can't even take a wound off of something.

I am going to miss my 20 poison shots in core

On the upside it seems that the Skink Hunters in Special slot might be able to be taken in units of 5. Depending on points they might be a tiny bit cheaper in which case I will probably use them solely as redirectors.

Filling my Core on the other hand... A unit of 30 Saurus Warriors as usual and I dunno a scoring unit of Skinks with Poison attacks? I really don't know.

I also feel that they overnerfed the Carnosaurs. The Alpha wasn't that broken and would have been fine with just the adjustment to the Starfall Shard (which I find to be very good now) and a price increase. The baby Carnosaur losing both PF and the MW is really shitty too. 8th Edition Carnosaurs had more damage potential lol (but yes they are significantly more defensive now).

 

[Mr Phat]

and TG is worse and more expensive WoC. .... sigh.

 

[Haemoglobin]

Haha yea so far our "Elite Troops" are not that Elite

 

[protector]

and TG is worse and more expensive WoC. .... sigh.

But that's because they are a close combat army and don't have access to proper shooting like us..... oh wait

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Why is it that in every edition I always seem to have to play my Warriors of Chaos over my Lizardmen?

you know what is grinding my gears?

Warriors have better shooting options in core now.

Welcome to the dark side.

and TG is worse and more expensive WoC. .... sigh.

The dark gods can not be denied!

But that's because they are a close combat army and don't have access to proper shooting like us..... oh wait

That is the real shame of it. I don't mind WoC having more elite close combat skills... they should be the best of all the armies in that regard. However, if they can out shoot us then that is a travesty.


@Mr Phat @Pinktaco What are the chances that some of these horrible changes are reversed/mitigated for April's full official release? That's when I'm deciding on going the 9th Age route or forgetting it all together and sticking with 8th Edition proper.

This hobby has been quite the roller coaster ride...

• 8th edition, all is good!
• End times, ewww... what is this?
• 9th edition should be just around the corner... excitedly intrigued
• Age of Sigmar... GW is dead to me
• 9th Age coming to the rescue... suspicious but curious
• 9th Age temporary armies released.... wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole
• 9th Age updated.... now this looks good
• Sneak peak... oh oh
• ???

 

[Deusvult]

Well...I was sad, until I saw the Raptor Riders point drop!!!!!! oh yeah baby!!!! Finally can pull the 40ish models I have out!!!

 

[hardyworld]

This hobby has been quite the roller coaster ride...

• 8th edition, all is good!
• End times, ewww... what is this?
• 9th edition should be just around the corner... excitedly intrigued
• Age of Sigmar... GW is dead to me
• 9th Age coming to the rescue... suspicious but curious
• 9th Age temporary armies released.... wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole
• 9th Age updated.... now this looks good
• Sneak peak... oh oh
• ???

Sums up why I remain an 8th Ed. fan. 9th Age hasn't ever impressed me; I'm glad other people enjoy it...I'm just upset that 8th Ed. GT scene has gone extinct. The Warhammer scene has fractured beyond repair (but we all already knew that).