AoS Temple guard

[Khelandros]

I think that Saurus Warriors with spears are better in terms of aggression, because you can summon them faster, they get bonuses in groups, their spears let more attacks in, and they don't get bonuses from having characters nearby so they can be marched towards the enemy with a much greater freedom because you don't have to worry about covering your characters. Good for aggressive players.

You need at least 20 warriors to get the first unit size bonus, and this can only happen on an 11+ roll on 2D6. If your opponent shoots even one of them dead before your next turn, there goes the bonus because our units can't consolidate like Zombies. Personally, I prefer small units of Kroxigors, especially with Moon Hammers, for getting into melee combat.

Temple Guard are the single best defensive unit in the game.

Phoenix Guard and Plaguebearers can certainly give them a run for their money in terms of defense. Especially with characters like the High Elf Mage or Epidemius in those armies, respectively. Temple Guard seem to have a good balance of offense and defense.

Is there any reason to take a different 1 wound troop over these guys? I usually have played with a wound cap. This means if I have 20 Temple Guard vs. 20 skinks, they "cost" the same, but the Guard are significantly better. I have 40 to 50 skinks but all I find I'm using out of that are my 10 chameleons and the priest(s).

Skinks are practically zombies with javelins/blowpipes this iteration. The only reason to take vanilla Skinks in any AoS game is because you could not bring a comparable number of Chameleon Skinks to the table or really wanted to take advantage of their "Wary Fighters" ability to stall an enemy unit(s).

Does anyone else use MSRP per model instead of wounds?

 

[Akt'uatl]

Forgive my ignorance... MSRP?

 

[Khelandros]

Forgive my ignorance... MSRP?

Manufacturer's suggested retail price. Pretty much what you pay at GW. I take the box cost and divide it by the number of models inside for a rough unit strength comparison.

 

[Bowser]

Am I the only one who finds the wording on the "Sworn Guardians" ability to be ambiguous? I thought the extra bravery and save bonus applied to the nearby heroes and was designed with Lord Kroak in mind.

Haha! I thought this too! Loard Kroak with a 12 bravery (and Chakax jumping in front of bullets) led to lord Kroak soundly destroying a vermin lord! Oops! Now I know for next time!

 

[Bainbow]

You need at least 20 warriors to get the first unit size bonus, and this can only happen on an 11+ roll on 2D6. If your opponent shoots even one of them dead before your next turn, there goes the bonus because our units can't consolidate like Zombies. Personally, I prefer small units of Kroxigors, especially with Moon Hammers, for getting into melee combat.

Phoenix Guard and Plaguebearers can certainly give them a run for their money in terms of defense. Especially with characters like the High Elf Mage or Epidemius in those armies, respectively. Temple Guard seem to have a good balance of offense and defense.

11+ for the bonus, 10+ with a BSB on the field, 9+ with a Curse of Fates on your summoner, 8+ if you have access to that terrain that gives you +1 to casting, 7+ if you're using a Slann that has the spellcasting constellation up. See how that's suddenly viable? Plus if you advance your spellcaster forward, you can use the increased summoning range from the BSB to get your Saurus within potential charging distance, a viable charge distance if you have some rerolls handy. Therefore you get to make use of the horde bonus before taking damage. See what I mean?

And oh yeah, Phoenix Guard and Plaguebearers can definitely give them a run for their money. But I think the TG's higher Bravery tips the balance, as it makes it harder for them to run away, making them less prone to losses. Does that make sense or am I talking nonsense again?

 

[Bowser]

11+ for the bonus, 10+ with a BSB on the field, 9+ with a Curse of Fates on your summoner, 8+ if you have access to that terrain that gives you +1 to casting, 7+ if you're using a Slann that has the spellcasting constellation up. See how that's suddenly viable? Plus if you advance your spellcaster forward, you can use the increased summoning range from the BSB to get your Saurus within potential charging distance, a viable charge distance if you have some rerolls handy. Therefore you get to make use of the horde bonus before taking damage. See what I mean?

And oh yeah, Phoenix Guard and Plaguebearers can definitely give them a run for their money. But I think the TG's higher Bravery tips the balance, as it makes it harder for them to run away, making them less prone to losses. Does that make sense or am I talking nonsense again?

Or bringing the saurus host, giving them no battleshock! Yeah I think the TG are one of the best units in the game now! So much you can do with them!

 

[Bainbow]

Or bringing the saurus host, giving them no battleshock! Yeah I think the TG are one of the best units in the game now! So much you can do with them!

I don't like the Saurus Host, I think it's weak. For starters, I think your army will be more effective if you specialise in heavy attack (all Saurus) or heavy defense (all Temple Guard) because you're not dividing your efforts. In addition, the requirement for three units of Saurus is a hindrance because that will prevent you from getting the max horde bonuses unless you have a stupid amount of Saurus.

 

[Khelandros]

Plus if you advance your spellcaster forward, you can use the increased summoning range from the BSB to get your Saurus within potential charging distance, a viable charge distance if you have some rerolls handy. Therefore you get to make use of the horde bonus before taking damage. See what I mean

That is a lot of heroes just to make this work:

• at least 1 Slann
• BSB
• Tetto'eko
• Skink Priest/Saurus OB on Cold One/anything else to help with charge re-rolls

... for a minimum 9" charge and only if there are enemies within range. Plus you still have to go first in combat, so you are limited to ... 1 unit going in and getting first-strike and praying the rest do not suffer casualties? I mean, 11+ summoning is a very high value. With +4 to my cast roll, I could easily summon a pack of Razordons; heck, even Engine of the gods only needs a 10.

And oh yeah, Phoenix Guard and Plaguebearers can definitely give them a run for their money. But I think the TG's higher Bravery tips the balance, as it makes it harder for them to run away, making them less prone to losses. Does that make sense or am I talking nonsense again?

I guess it depends on what they are fighting.

 

[Bainbow]

That is a lot of heroes just to make this work:

• at least 1 Slann
• BSB
• Tetto'eko
• Skink Priest/Saurus OB on Cold One/anything else to help with charge re-rolls

... for a minimum 9" charge and only if there are enemies within range. Plus you still have to go first in combat, so you are limited to ... 1 unit going in and getting first-strike and praying the rest do not suffer casualties? I mean, 11+ summoning is a very high value. With +4 to my cast roll, I could easily summon a pack of Razordons; heck, even Engine of the gods only needs a 10.

Well yeah, it is a lot of Heroes. But if you take a close look at the Lizards now, they're very reliant on Heroes to get their best synergies. Every single Hero can double as a strong dedicated support. And this is good because, aside from Slann, we can summon every single Hero we have so we never lose our supportive side for more than one turn, if that. Plus that's only four Heroes, my current best list has seven of them. And you know what? They're brilliant because of the support they bring, they make my troops nearly unbeatable.
It may seem like a lot by 8th's standards, but this isn't 8th.

 

[Khelandros]

Well yeah, it is a lot of Heroes. But if you take a close look at the Lizards now, they're very reliant on Heroes to get their best synergies. Every single Hero can double as a strong dedicated support. And this is good because, aside from Slann, we can summon every single Hero we have so we never lose our supportive side for more than one turn, if that. Plus that's only four Heroes, my current best list has seven of them. And you know what? They're brilliant because of the support they bring, they make my troops nearly unbeatable.
It may seem like a lot by 8th's standards, but this isn't 8th.

I am not judging the number of heroes relative to 8th edition: I am basing it on the unit restrictions that my local venues place on AoS games. If you are able to deploy units using the RAW, then by all means, that is inconsequential. However, I still do not see why it would be worth summoning 20 Saurus Warriors for a marginal bonus given the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Bainbow]

I am not judging the number of heroes relative to 8th edition: I am basing it on the unit restrictions that my local venues place on AoS games. If you are able to deploy units using the RAW, then by all means, that is inconsequential. However, I still do not see why it would be worth summoning 20 Saurus Warriors for a marginal bonus given the aforementioned reasons.

Ah, of course. Your local place will have different restrictions to mine.
It's a marginal bonus at first glance, yes. But it's also a constant stream of reinforcements that not only keep your enemy busy, but pound away at them monstrously. I really don't see your problem with it.

 

[Khelandros]

I really don't see your problem with it.

I think that Saurus Warriors with spears are better in terms of aggression, because you can summon them faster, they get bonuses in groups, their spears let more attacks in, and they don't get bonuses from having characters nearby so they can be marched towards the enemy with a much greater freedom because you don't have to worry about covering your characters. Good for aggressive players.

I do not have a problem with it. I merely disagree on how Saurus Warriors are superior given the context of the original post.

 

[Bainbow]

I do not have a problem with it. I merely disagree on how Saurus Warriors are superior given the context of the original post.

I feel they're superior on the offensive due to their greater volume of attacks, which is fact thanks to their better range, and the fact that they're more expendable, meaning losses taken when on the move by ranged opponents are minimalised because they summon twice as fast as TG.

 

[Khelandros]

Assuming there are no debuffs, unit synergies, re-rolls, terrain effects, or other special rules in place, then, on average, you can expect your opponent to make:

• 1.055 save rolls per Temple Guard
• 1.500 save rolls per Alpha Guardian

• 0.500 save rolls per Saurus Warrior w/club (no bonuses)
• 0.833 save rolls per Alpha Talon w/club (no bonuses)
• 0.416 save rolls per Saurus Warrior w/spear (no bonuses)
• 0.666 save rolls per Alpha Talon w/spear (no bonuses)

• 0.611 save rolls per Saurus Warrior w/club (hit bonus only)
• 1.055 save rolls per Alpha Talon w/club (hit bonus only)
• 0.500 save rolls per Saurus Warrior w/spear (hit bonus only)
• 0.833 save rolls per Alpha Talon w/spear (hit bonus only)

• 1.055 save rolls per Saurus Warrior w/club (hit+attack bonus)
• 1.500 save rolls per Alpha Talon w/club (hit+attack bonus)
• 0.833 save rolls per Saurus Warrior w/spear (hit+attack bonus)
• 1.166 save rolls per Alpha Talon w/spear (hit+attack bonus)

So let us consider your summoning scenario and compare an 11+ roll for summoning both TGs and SWs, and assume all models are in range of their weapons:

• 11.00 save rolls per 10-man unit of summoned Temple Guard
• 12.67 save rolls per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors w/club (hit bonus)
• 10.33 save rolls per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors w/spear (hit bonus)

• 10.33 save rolls per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors w/club (no bonuses)
• 8.58 save rolls per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors w/spear (no bonuses)

From a strictly offensive perspective, the 20-man unit of Saurus Warriors with clubs will outperform the Temple Guard versus a unit with no armor save.
However, against anything with an armor save, you can expect rend to tip the scales:

Temple Guard (10-man unit, above)

• 1.56 wounds per 10-man unit of summoned Temple Guard (vs armor save 1+)**
• 3.39 wounds per 10-man unit of summoned Temple Guard (vs armor save 2+)
• 5.22 wounds per 10-man unit of summoned Temple Guard (vs armor save 3+)
• 7.06 wounds per 10-man unit of summoned Temple Guard (vs armor save 4+)
• 8.89 wounds per 10-man unit of summoned Temple Guard (vs armor save 5+)
• 10.72 wounds per 10-man unit of summoned Temple Guard (vs armor save 6+)
• 11.00 wounds per 10-man unit of summoned Temple Guard (vs no armor save)

Saurus Warriors (20-man unit w/club, hit bonus only, above)

• 0.00 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 1+)*
• 2.11 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 2+)
  
• 4.22 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 3+)
  
• 6.33 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 4+)
  
• 8.44 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 5+)
  
• 10.56 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 6+)
  
• 12.67 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs no armor save)

Saurus Warriors (20-man unit w/spear, hit bonus only, above)

• 0.00 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 1+)*
• 1.72 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 2+)
  
• 3.44 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 3+)
  
• 5.17 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 4+)
  
• 6.88 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 5+)
  
• 8.61 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs armor save 6+)
  
• 10.33 wounds per 20-man unit of summoned Saurus Warriors (vs no armor save)

*assuming 1+ rolls are auto-save; see vs armor save 2+ if 1+ fails on roll of 1
**EDIT: increases to only 1.83 if 1+ fails on roll of 1

Note that these values are strictly averages and do not take saurus defense or prolonged combat into consideration.
I feel that the increased range of spears is negated by the fact that you need to get twice as many Saurus Warriors into combat.
Furthermore, if the warrior unit loses a single model before they get to strike, they will scale up worse than the Temple Guard given the Saurus Warriors' difference in accuracy/wound potential.

 

[protector]

I don't like the Saurus Host, I think it's weak. For starters, I think your army will be more effective if you specialise in heavy attack (all Saurus) or heavy defense (all Temple Guard) because you're not dividing your efforts. In addition, the requirement for three units of Saurus is a hindrance because that will prevent you from getting the max horde bonuses unless you have a stupid amount of Saurus.

And they all said I was crazy, now when I field 180 saurus and 60 temple guards my opponents feel the game quickly turning against them lol

 

[El Caimán]

And they all said I was crazy, now when I field 180 saurus and 60 temple guards my opponents feel the game quickly turning against them lol

Loool
Cause 180 are overwhelming hahaha!

The saurust host is ok just for that extra shield sttack...without mods you have to get 5 dead models and a roll of 6 for at least one model to flee, so the no battleshock attribute is not so helpfull, compared to other "hosts" in the game.

On paper the tg are, hands down, better than saurus warriors. The only reason to use them is if you have slick tactics and make take full advantage of em saurus warriors

 

[Bainbow]

Loool
Cause 180 are overwhelming hahaha!

The saurust host is ok just for that extra shield sttack...without mods you have to get 5 dead models and a roll of 6 for at least one model to flee, so the no battleshock attribute is not so helpfull, compared to other "hosts" in the game.

On paper the tg are, hands down, better than saurus warriors. The only reason to use them is if you have slick tactics and make take full advantage of em saurus warriors

Yes but that's what I'm taking into consideration, "sick tactics" as you put it. Tactics are more important now than ever in Warhammer due to the fact we have fewer restrictions.
Put it this way. I don't take any models because I think they're good. I take them because they'll fit into my grand tactica. So while TG are indeed better on paper, if I want an aggressive Seraph army list, I will take warriors because they're better for that role when used with guile and tactics, even if they're not better in a head-on scrap.

 

[El Caimán]

Totally agree there!