9th Age Discussion of OpenHammer (ETC) and Ninth Age (Swedish Comp)

[Rettile]

i will, i'll just need some time because of my job

 

[The Sauric Ace]

I think this is where this type of system fails. Let's say they nerf our book (in comparison to others), why would any of us decide to go along with this rule set.

Things have to be balanced slowly and systematically or the majority of the community will reject it. I'd say start with the BRB and FAQ updates first.

True!

In generally that's what I like about the general concept within our own brainstorming. In that we might eventually start talking about changing other army books, but the main part are the core rules along side what we know best.'
This complete overhauls fails, the the regards of leaving people excited about the changes. If some one simply puts it to their project to nerf army books for reasoning not fully explained, it is going to be difficult getting those people to play. These changing may make our book much better suited, but due to the fact that this is essentially an entirely new game, we can't tell.

Another problem is that we don't really know how much of an understanding about the various armies these guys might have. I mean they could simply not know meta which is considered a know truth in this forum; like kroxigors not being that useful, so nerfing them seems out of place. OR alternatively they could have a very different concept of how the game "Should" be played, than other players; which again makes it difficult to support the system, if you don't particularly agrees with them.

Better go the way of slightly increasing and decreasing points of each army book and changing a few core mechanics.

 

[Pinktaco]

Let me just be clear here: The changes I wrote are out of context because:

1) Saurus warriors/Guards appear to have been "nerfed" (higher price/model) HOWEVER this could be due to beneficial (for us) changes in the BRB.
2) I haven't thoroughly checked out every army, but just picked a few models to compare with.
3) Things might change and since it's still not translated it might not be quite as open to the public as we think.
4) Things might be intentional absurd because they want to spend the next half year "beta testing" these ideas and see how they flow. This is common in the gaming industry with patches where they either do one of the following:
a) introduce absurd changes in a beta patch to see how people react.
b) introduce small changes and slowly see how that goes (the more safe approach).

For instance our guys appear more expensive, however if gain ASF when we charge we suddenly have incredible good units.
A change in the fear/terror tests might make units testing fail some more and will thus have an indirect influence of how powerful a kroxigor is (suddenly hitting on 3+ instead of 4+ more often).

With that said:
I would personally have prefered a look at the BRB followed by letting every community come up with suggestions for the army books and for the ETC team to take them into consideration.
My initial impression of the new rules/stats is that they appear to be created by someone who doesn't actually play the army, but just look at the stats and blaance accordingly. How many of us have not seen people claim how ridiculously good predatory fighter is, or saurus warriors, or the slann or... something else. People have a different view and I think it's important that the rules are made by both the actual players and players who doesn't actually play the army. This way we reduce bias from both sides to a certain degree. I hope

 

[Pinktaco]

Also let's be careful with the word "nerf". A price increase is in my opinion a "nerf", but the kroxigors did not receive an actual stats reduction or anything like that. They increased 5pts and that's imo uncalled for EVEN IF they receive impact hit (1).

 

[serbianwolf]

@The Sauric Ace thats the thing the ETC crowd should be informed on all armies and the most popular metas, since a lot of tounaments were played according to their rules. The most popular and dominant lizzie etc army is the skink cloud, so it would make no sense if they nerfed anything but the skinks...

I need to make myslef clear, I am not defending anyone in advance before I try it out, for all I know this could be crap...All im saying is that in these turbulent times, when there is no undisputable authority, like GW was,we have to be patient and try things out before giving them a true estimate...

@Pinktaco I agree with everything you said...thats just it.. On the other hand if kroxies get impact hits, espesialy the way ogres have it, its a big deal, believe me I play ogres

 

[Pinktaco]

I found one rule:

Models which have performed a charge movement during the turn fight with a +1 bonus to their initiative characteristic

Combined with spear a saurus warrior who charge is at I3, a templeguard is at I4, however the bastiladon no longer appear to grant +1I so it comes off as kinda moot.

Instead the bastiladon appear to only be able to shoot a beam which I think is a normal spell now and somewhat powerful.

 

[Pinktaco]

@Pinktaco I agree with everything you said...thats just it.. On the other hand if kroxies get impact hits, espesialy the way ogres have it, its a big deal, believe me I play ogres

It's just 1 impact hit and not D3

 

[The Sauric Ace]

My initial impression of the new rules/stats is that they appear to be created by someone who doesn't actually play the army, but just look at the stats and balance accordingly. How many of us have not seen people claim how ridiculously good predatory fighter is, or saurus warriors, or the slann or... something else. People have a different view and I think it's important that the rules are made by both the actual players and players who doesn't actually play the army. This way we reduce bias from both sides to a certain degree. I hope

True, and a whole lot of other great points.
The notion of having as many players both from the army and from various of opposing armies is a really great thing to allow for, when creating a 8.1 system. It is as you said, people have different views on what's working and what's unbalanced.

And if you never actually bother talking to the people playing the army, you don't actually know why they like playing the army in the first way; this is essentially the worst thing about such a new compendium. Is there something that the players of the army finds really exciting about the army, that noneplayers just wouldn't see, what if this is then for no reason pull out of the book, simply because they rather balance the army otherwise.
All armies needs something unique about them, something should be less priced because that army is suppose to excel in that regard. Of course this still needs to be balanced, but my point still stands

thats the thing the ETC crowd should be informed on all armies and the most popular metas, since a lot of tounaments were played according to their rules. The most popular and dominant lizzie etc army is the skink cloud, so it would make no sense if they nerfed anything but the skinks...

I too feel as they need a shot, so I won't complain about anything before I actually see a more concrete compendium that is fully made out. This is very early and and haven't seen other army books, I also don't know how this game will play. However the issue is, that with all these changes, does these guys?

 

[spawning of Bob]

Just reading the open hammer general rules for significant changes.

D. 1.12.2 .... The general can't be BSB.
R 12.1 characters only can join units of same type
R 12.2 max 2 characters can John a unit

 

[Pinktaco]

Right so no more troglodon unless I missed it. Units are as following:

Elite characters (max 1 elite character you also HAVE TO pick an elite character)
Slann
Oldblood

Characters (max 3 characters, not necessary)
Scar veteran
Skink Priest
Skink Chief

Base Troops (max 50 models in a unit)
Saurus warriors (11pts, shield +1pts, big shield 3pts, Ld7)
Skink cohort (20+ unit size)
Swarms

Light Troops (max 15 models in a unit)
Skink skirmishers
Cameleon skinks
Ripperdactyls (no killing blow, just normal frenzy)
Terradons (can still drop rock)

Heavy Troops (max 15 models in a unit)
Baby Stegadon (gains +1S and D3 impact hit on charge, can mount giant bow).
Bastiladon (175pts, can use spell, impact hit, one S10 hit with D3 "wounds", immune to psycology, S5)
Kroxigors (55pts, can switch to halbard for free, impact hit (1), Ld6)
Skink Cavalry (20pts straight up, mounted on Cold One so T4, spear/shield, magic banner)
Cold One Riders (28pts/30pts including big shield, comes with spear regardless, magic banner)

Elite Troops (max 25 models in a unit)
Templeguards (15pts, shield +1pts, big shield +3pts, Ld7)
Salamander (70pts, drops flame thrower template, impact hit (1))
Razordon (65pts, S4 ranged attack with quick to fire and D6 shots)

Mounts:
Cold One
Carnosaur
Stegadon

Not in the list:
All special characters.
Troglodon.
Ancient Stegadon.
Bastiladon with ark of sotec (snakes).

 

[Pinktaco]

Just reading the open hammer general rules for significant changes.

D. 1.12.2 .... The general can't be BSB.
R 12.1 characters only can join units of same type
R 12.2 max 2 characters can John a unit

Slann have a rule for this

 

[Pinktaco]

Well it would appear that Chaos Warriors are still pretty much the same. You know the actual warriors. They still have a 4+ save, mark of nurgle (-1 to hit close combat), halbard xD

Chaos knights have been moved into "core" and are no much cheaper, which is good.
All gods now appear to have their own monstrous cavalry, so not just skullcrushers.
Deamon price don't have a lot of items to choose from so they seem more managable.

 

[n810]

not a fan of their general method
nerfing all armies and reducing options
until they are roughly equal.

How about instead we give every
community the army they deserved (buffed) & FAQ answered.
and just fix the most obvious flaws in the BRB?

 

[serbianwolf]

i like the idea of separate deamons, and weaker demon princes, the number 25 restriction on elite units and 2 characters max is a dethstar solution, the initiative system gives charges more meaning, those aro pro-s so far...

dont like the point increase on croxigors, but i like impact hits (strgh 5 is nice), i dont like that you have to choose betwen a slan and an old blood, that means we will never see an old blood on the field....waiting for more info...

 

[The Sauric Ace]

I feel like that was one of the more annoying facts about the 8th edition, too little variations in the armies. But that wasn't really that bad once I got to try it.
I should have learned then, not to judge these streamlined rules, where everything ought to be the same. That's not the vibe I'm getting here though; I do think a lot of these changes seems odd, out of place or not really balancing the system, just changing it...

Why are saurus warriors still as bad a fighter, but more scared? Is that suppose to balance, what exactly? The fact that they performed generally poorly in battle and now they'll also flee much more often?

Okay I Said I Wasn't going to judge, and now I totally am

 

[serbianwolf]

@The Sauric Ace the problem is nobody knows until enough play test games are done, and only the bige communities can effectively achieve that for all armies...

@Pinktaco Shure but ewen Ogres get d3 only if they charge roll is 10 or more,and strgth 5 is really nice...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Kroxigors (55pts, can switch to halbard for free, impact hit (1), Ld6)

Horrible... 5 points INCREASE for impact hit (1). Leadership 6!??!

Saurus leadership has dropped as well.

I do think a lot of these changes seems odd, out of place or not really balancing the system, just changing it...

Okay I Said I Wasn't going to judge, and now I totally am

Without seeing the changes to the BRB (which could make a huge difference), I'm not at all impressed thus far. Nothing here so far to get me to abandon 8th edition proper.

I have a feeling that this will only fragment our already dwindling community further.

 

[Pinktaco]

I feel like that was one of the more annoying facts about the 8th edition, too little variations in the armies. But that wasn't really that bad once I got to try it.
I should have learned then, not to judge these streamlined rules, where everything ought to be the same. That's not the vibe I'm getting here though; I do think a lot of these changes seems odd, out of place or not really balancing the system, just changing it...

Why are saurus warriors still as bad a fighter, but more scared? Is that suppose to balance, what exactly? The fact that they performed generally poorly in battle and now they'll also flee much more often?

Okay I Said I Wasn't going to judge, and now I totally am

Also Ld7 saurus units kinda defeat a lot of the purpose of being coldblooded. At that point the 3D6 test have been countered because derp reasons. Also without having checked all races I quickly checked Chaos Warriors and Chosen and they're still at their same leadership value, price and power level.

I'm kinda worried that we're seeing exactly what I feared: non-lizardmen player deciding for the LM community.

Btw Leadership 7 coldblooded is just very slightly worse than Ld9. So I feel that the nerf to Ld is exactly that, a counter to coldblooded..

 

[Pinktaco]

Horrible... 5 points INCREASE for impact hit (1). Leadership 6!??!

Saurus leadership has dropped as well.



Without seeing the changes to the BRB (which could make a huge difference), I'm not at all impressed thus far. Nothing here so far to get me to abandon 8th edition proper.

I have a feeling that this will only fragment our already dwindling community further.

I haven't seen anything really that'll make much difference. +1I on charge is useless in most cases for us. If the bastiladon still had the buff it would actually make a difference since templeguards could reach I5 and strik on same initative as most elite elfs and chaos warriors, but nope.

We'll see about magic. I haven't actually bothered to read up on it, although there's a new lore called "War" which can grant +1 armour save so that's interesting. I mean 3+ saurus warriors with that buff would be interesting.

 

[The Sauric Ace]

@Pinktaco my thoughts exactly, this feels very non - lizardmen players choosing for the lizardmens part :/