AoS "Points values -- who needs 'em!" (fixed)

[Ixt]

Hey, guys... check out this old article by Jervis Johnson. I saw it over on Warseer. It was written 15+ years ago!

From mashkeyboardgetusername over on Warseer:

"I came across this interesting article from an old White Dwarf (don't know exactly when) in which Jervis Johnson talks about the need, or not, for points values in wargaming, and tournament style games as compared to playing narrative battles and scenarios. I thought it might be worth posting here as it's probably pretty relevant to the design philosophy of Age of Sigmar, especially given that (I think) Jervis is still working in the design studio at GW (so this could almost be as close to a GW designer discussing the AoS's lack of points values as we're going to get). Anyway, er, discuss and enjoy!"

*standing over WHFB's stabbed, bloodied corpse*
Looks like after 20 years, Jervis finally made...

his point.

"yyyeeeaaaaaahhhhh!!"

One could say that his article is... pointless?!

What are your thoughts? I've heard that he's a jerk, but he seems pretty humble here.

 

[The Red Devil]

The images does not seem to work. Guess they were deleted from warseer?

 

[Ixt]

The images does not seem to work. Guess they were deleted from warseer?

Huh! Weird. They show up fine for me. Must be a cache thing. I'll re-host and repost!

Edit: Fix'd.

 

[The Red Devil]

Huh! Weird. They show up fine for me. Must be a cache thing. I'll re-host and repost!

Thanks

On a side note, with the forum upgrade it is possible to upload images directly with your post, so no need to upload/host them anywhere else anymore. Just click on the "Upload a File" button next to the "Post Reply" button.

 

[The Red Devil]

Was an interesting read.

I agree with the point he tried to make in the article, but to a degree.

If you are playing with someone that you know, and is a fair player, his point of view make complete sense. I have many times tried crazy match ups, or scenarios just for the fun of it with friends.

However if you plan to go to a game club and play against a random player, I do not see how it will work. Since you do not know the personality of your opponent, it could fast turn into a sour game with no set guidelines to agree upon for the game.

That is where the point system in Ed. 8 (and prior) shined, since it allowed you to bring a few lists at different point ranges, and you were set to play anyone at the club at the point range they preferred. Hopefully the community will be able to agree on either a wounds or point system for AoS as well (or even GW to get the head out of their butt and release an errata).

 

[KingCheops]

That is where the point system in Ed. 8 (and prior) shined, since it allowed you to bring a few lists at different point ranges, and you were set to play anyone at the club at the point range they preferred. Hopefully the community will be able to agree on either a wounds or point system for AoS as well (or even GW to get the head out of their butt and release an errata).

Except of course that the balance everyone talks about in 8th edition was at army book level so if you showed up with one army and another guy showed up with one of the armies that beats your army then you stood no chance at all. Reports of 8th edition's amazing points system are grossly exaggerated.

Edit to add: It's like everyone instantly forgot all the dozens of threads and posts about how broken stuff like the Elves and Chaos were when AoS came about. Points doesn't guarantee a balanced or fair game.

 

[LawGnome]

Except of course that the balance everyone talks about in 8th edition was at army book level so if you showed up with one army and another guy showed up with one of the armies that beats your army then you stood no chance at all. Reports of 8th edition's amazing points system are grossly exaggerated.

Edit to add: It's like everyone instantly forgot all the dozens of threads and posts about how broken stuff like the Elves and Chaos were when AoS came about. Points doesn't guarantee a balanced or fair game.

I don't think anyone is saying that the points in 8th edition were balanced. GW never cared to balance it.

Point values (when determined by game creators that actually give a crap) allow for balance to be created. If I bring one model valued at 100 points, and you bring a unit of 10 models that is valued at 100 points, regardless of the army, the two forces should be more or less evenly matched. That way you can have an army made up of hundreds of models and go against an army made up of 4 or five models and it can still be fair.

What people want is a way to know at least in part that they are going to have a fair game when played against someone else. No one (except for 8th edition WoC players) enjoys having an army that completely stomps the other armies every time. That defeats the purpose of playing a competitive game.

 

[pendrake]

Points doesn't guarantee a balanced or fair game.

It depends on who wrote the point system and for what game...

 

[Scalenex]

He can down his nose on competitive players if he wants, but I think Games Workshop should recognize the customers they have (had) and not just the ones they wish they had.

 

[KingCheops]

Keep in mind the article was written decades ago when GW very much supported the tournament scene as well as narrative gamers. GW thumbed its nose at tournaments long after this article but well before AoS.

 

[pendrake]

He wrote that when he was 36.

There was a time before Games Workshop started popularizing++ point valued armies where wargamers were left to figure out the balance of forces on either side for themselves. Something I have been saying in other threads.

If not built to identical point limits then the OOB for each side is determined or inspired by something else.

Could be two gamers saying, OK this is about even, or drawing up forces based on their D&D campaign, or they could try to approximate the sides from a historic battle either from real history or fictional history—say from within a novel.

++Was DBM, De Bellus Militarius, the first wargame to do points for units? and set battles at a certain size?

Maybe he has finally gotten his way, to some extent, with age-of-siggy.

I don't think anyone is saying that the points in 8th edition were balanced. GW never cared to balance it.

What they were and became was a way to nudge sales of the most recently released models —this is what for profit companies do— but what is hard to excuse or forgive is claims of fairness and balance when it was pretty clear the system was anything but.

Ignorance or Malice
It is possible the old point system was flawed merely because it is just too hard to get perfect, the designers were never that good at maths (ignorance).
The other explanation is they knew the points were off, they realized it could be a subtle sales tool and they exploited the effect (malice).

There is an old saying: Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity (ignorance).

But, it doesn't matter which was the case, the bottom line is: the gaming community will be better off if it creates its own point balancing system.

And the same goes for narrative, scenario or campaign based battles. If the company that makes the models is in charge of these matters the answer will always be: you need to buy the latest models.

Guys it's time to wake up and stop drinking the kool-aid mixed up by the marketing majors, it just is.