AoS Had a game of AoS

[Mr Phat]

Hey hey, let's not argue with each other. Not in my house gahd-dermit!

• Wasting money on movement trays instead of new toys? No more!
• Finicky rules system that punishes me for even the tiniest tactical mistake? Nope!

Must admit I am in the @borkbork camp on this one, are you serious?

Movement trays have never been a budget killer, and I refuse to believe that you got currency to be in Warhammer if you cant even afford the trays.
Removing those is a massive time consumption.
Have you tried it yet?
Moving 50+ goblins or Skaven slaves without trays gets old REALLY quick

about the rules punishing you: well yes, that is how games work Do you expect to keep your head if you make a tactical mistake in Counter Strike, Starcraft or other games?
Sounds to me you never liked what Warhammer was at all why play it? there is plenty of other games that dont need trays, and offer more forgiving circumstances.

And all the stuff I loved - magic, wizard duels

I see you haven't played it!
Magic is reduced to BLEH!
For a Wizard to dispel/Unbind a spell he has to be within 18'' of the guy casting.
Out of the Game I played myself and the 5 games Ive watched online, that has happened once, and for 2 turns only.
And even then it goes like this:

"I want to cast this spell - so I have to throw these 2 dice and have no other options......its a 7 so its off."
"Well I want to unbind your spell - so I have to throw these 2 dice and have no other options.....its an 8, so its unbound"
"...oh...nvm..."
".....yea......big woop..."

THRILLING I TELL YOU!
The "Duel" thing I loved in 8th magic is GONE, there is NO feeling even close to that.

 

[Mr Phat]

Just realized it could come of as I am pratonizing you @ElectricPaladin , that is not the case.

Just stating my view on your opinion, not trying to belittle anyone.

 

[Pinktaco]

I made a movement tray from a cardbox that can hold a saurus horde. didn't take that long and it have sides on it as well. It doesn't have to be expensive

 

[Pinktaco]

Must admit I am in the @borkbork camp on this one, are you serious?

Movement trays have never been a budget killer, and I refuse to believe that you got currency to be in Warhammer if you cant even afford the trays.
Removing those is a massive time consumption.
Have you tried it yet?
Moving 50+ goblins or Skaven slaves without trays gets old REALLY quick

about the rules punishing you: well yes, that is how games work Do you expect to keep your head if you make a tactical mistake in Counter Strike, Starcraft or other games?
Sounds to me you never liked what Warhammer was at all why play it? there is plenty of other games that dont need trays, and offer more forgiving circumstances.



I see you haven't played it!
Magic is reduced to BLEH!
For a Wizard to dispel/Unbind a spell he has to be within 18'' of the guy casting.
Out of the Game I played myself and the 5 games Ive watched online, that has happened once, and for 2 turns only.
And even then it goes like this:

"I want to cast this spell - so I have to throw these 2 dice and have no other options......its a 7 so its off."
"Well I want to unbind your spell - so I have to throw these 2 dice and have no other options.....its an 8, so its unbound"
"...oh...nvm..."
".....yea......big woop..."

THRILLING I TELL YOU!
The "Duel" thing I loved in 8th magic is GONE, there is NO feeling even close to that.

I like 8th edition magic (except purple sun and similar spells) because it's a mini game within the game. It's a mind game of how to get off the spell YOU want and can be interesting, hell in my last game I got off 3 spells with 5 dice (dat tettoeko reroll) and my opponent was struggling to what he should dispel. He dispelled none my OB removed 7 bestigors by himself that round <.<. I agree with you that I don't see that with the system AoS have.

Besides that I enjoy thinking about how a magic lore synergies with the army you're bringing. It makes you actually think, if you care for such things - some people just pick s lore they enjoy, which is fine as well because they're actually taking a choice. Magic along with magic items/equipment was a big thing for me in WHFB and those things appear to have been minimized/reduced too much. Now it's essentially just "pick a weapon".

 

[Slanputin]

Then you're like the people who don't vote. You get no say hehehehe

Nonsense. Pirates always win.

Yarrghh.

I like 8th edition magic (except purple sun and similar spells) because it's a mini game within the game. It's a mind game of how to get off the spell YOU want and can be interesting, hell in my last game I got off 3 spells with 5 dice (dat tettoeko reroll) and my opponent was struggling to what he should dispel. He dispelled none my OB removed 7 bestigors by himself that round <.<. I agree with you that I don't see that with the system AoS have.

Besides that I enjoy thinking about how a magic lore synergies with the army you're bringing. It makes you actually think, if you care for such things - some people just pick s lore they enjoy, which is fine as well because they're actually taking a choice.

Yes and yes. The reduction of the magic system is what dissapointed me the most about AoS, and it's one i hope the campaign book will rectify somewhat. I like command abilities, it's another interesting dynamic, and I can see why they put it in the same phase as magic however it's a shame it had to occur to magic's detriment. Magic definitely needed to be handled to stop it being the "deus magos ex machina" - I really didn't like the OP spells - but it needed to be handled with care rather than stomped and smooshed.

 

[Mr Phat]

thats my point exactly @Pinktaco !
How many times have you not had the feeling after a magic phase "....I just outplayed him, and now its gonna cost him the game!"
You will NEVER be able to tell those anecdotes anymore!
From here on you wont have anything to say but:

"Remember that time I rolled a 8 over your 7? and that Arcane bolt put 3 mortal wounds on your 12 Wound lord? ....crazy SH_ _ !"

 

[pendrake]

Movement trays have never been a budget killer, and I refuse to believe that you got currency to be in Warhammer if you cant even afford the trays.
Removing those is a massive time consumption.
Have you tried it yet?
Moving 50+ goblins or Skaven slaves without trays gets old REALLY quick

In another thread I was prattling on about how inexpensively trays can be fabricated.

But my question is: why not keep using trays? there is no longer a need to rank up but the tray can still serve to move a bunch of models as a group. Pull a few guys off the tray to form the outer perimeter of the area that you want the unit to hold down but keep the bulk on the tray in a raggedy skirmish fashion.

The 50 model unit has 9-10 models loose but about 40 on the tray. Only 12 or so items to move total. 1 tray + 11 loose models, FREX.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The loss of the magic phase is AoS is one of the biggest travesties in the game. Sure the magic phase is still technically there, but all the thought, logic and strategy that went into it under 8th edition is no where to be found in AoS

In 8th edition the magic phase was highly involved...

• choosing your lore
• planning out how many spells you were going to attempt to cast
• planning how many dice to throw at each spell
• planning the order in which you were going to make your attempts
• drawing out dispel dice
• and the player dispelling had to make all these choices as well

In AoS the magic phase is trivial and straight forward...

• only bit of "skill" (perhaps interaction is a better word) is moving your unbinding wizard within 18 inches
• how many spells will I attempt to cast/unbind... every single one I'm in range for
  
• how many dice will I throw at the attempt......... 2
• what order will I cast.......................................... it does not matter
• drawing out or saving dispel dice....................... not applicable (other than saving the unbind attempts that a wizard has)

So although the magic phase still exists in AoS, everything that was fun and skill-orientated about it is completely gone. There are very few decisions to make in the AoS magic phase. In 8th, as others have mentioned above, the magic phase was a complete mini game in its own right. I'd argue that the magic phase in 8th edition was more skill orientated than the entirety of the AoS.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

I will admit that I liked the magic system in 8th a lot better. And it's true, I haven't played AoS, yet. I'll probably be able to get in a game of it next week.

And perhaps I could have gone super cheap with cardboard trays, but honestly it never occurred to me... I suppose I was just afraid of being sneered at!

 

[Pinktaco]

I will admit that I liked the magic system in 8th a lot better. And it's true, I haven't played AoS, yet. I'll probably be able to get in a game of it next week.

And perhaps I could have gone super cheap with cardboard trays, but honestly it never occurred to me... I suppose I was just afraid of being sneered at!

I actually found it to be a good solution to big units and the sides aren't any worse than normal plastic trays.

 

[protector]

So I just played a game against skaven, we decided on 75 wounds so I brought the following:

Oldblood
Chakax
Gor-Rok
Oxyotl
12 Temple Guard
10 Saurus x3
Bastiladon Ark of Sotek

He brought plague monks, stormvermin, hellpit, snitch, battle standard, warlord, and plague priest

It was a complete murder session against the ratmen, honestly it wasn't even close and that was mostly due to me having back to back turns right after getting into combat range.

Also we technically played with house rules as the wound limit goes against the main idea of this game, this was absolutely necessary and I see no way around adding in some balancing or army building rules. If I wanted to play a game with no competition and just for the grins and giggles of moving little toy figures around this would not be it, but to play this game as it is meant to and to keep any amount of competition alive I would need to bring my entire collection which in 8th would have been around 20k points.

My biggest take away was that monsters are now grossly overpowered.

I also finished a game with my ogres against O&G, it was again a major victory but not a one sided blood bath. But that was of course because I decided not to play competitively and field 4 thundertusks, each of which causes 6 mortal wounds (no saves allowed) against any unit within 18" on a 2+, so I can kill two carnosaurs every shooting phase easily oh great that isn't broke.

It did though come down to big monsters, even characters are toned down compared to them, I'm really not seeing how this can be fun with no army restrictions.

 

[Mr Phat]

(This months spending money is going to shoes, next month is work boots)

Keep the boxes your shoes came in and cut them? The material of most shoe-cases is solid enough to work for this.
Cut a few pieces of and glue on the "edges" to stop your models from falling of.
Spray with black or not.
There, movement tray

I did this, and it works fine!

 

[Scalenex]

I made my movement trays out of old cereal boxes. Shoe cases seem a bit thick, but I hadn't thought of using the "edge" to keep them on the tray.

 

[Ixt]

In another thread I was prattling on about how inexpensively trays can be fabricated.

But my question is: why not keep using trays? there is no longer a need to rank up but the tray can still serve to move a bunch of models as a group. Pull a few guys off the tray to form the outer perimeter of the area that you want the unit to hold down but keep the bulk on the tray in a raggedy skirmish fashion.

The 50 model unit has 9-10 models loose but about 40 on the tray. Only 12 or so items to move total. 1 tray + 11 loose models, FREX.

I did this for Orks in 40k. It saves a lot of time when you gotta move 95+ models.

Really, there's no reason not to use movement trays, unless I'm missing something... templates are gone.

 

[Ixt]

So I just played a game against skaven, we decided on 75 wounds so I brought the following:

Oldblood
Chakax
Gor-Rok
Oxyotl
12 Temple Guard
10 Saurus x3
Bastiladon Ark of Sotek

He brought plague monks, stormvermin, hellpit, snitch, battle standard, warlord, and plague priest

It was a complete murder session against the ratmen, honestly it wasn't even close and that was mostly due to me having back to back turns right after getting into combat range.

Also we technically played with house rules as the wound limit goes against the main idea of this game, this was absolutely necessary and I see no way around adding in some balancing or army building rules. If I wanted to play a game with no competition and just for the grins and giggles of moving little toy figures around this would not be it, but to play this game as it is meant to and to keep any amount of competition alive I would need to bring my entire collection which in 8th would have been around 20k points.

My biggest take away was that monsters are now grossly overpowered.

I also finished a game with my ogres against O&G, it was again a major victory but not a one sided blood bath. But that was of course because I decided not to play competitively and field 4 thundertusks, each of which causes 6 mortal wounds (no saves allowed) against any unit within 18" on a 2+, so I can kill two carnosaurs every shooting phase easily oh great that isn't broke.

It did though come down to big monsters, even characters are toned down compared to them, I'm really not seeing how this can be fun with no army restrictions.

Did anyone opt to retreat? A lot of players seem to be forgetting that they can do that, and it drastically changes the game.

 

[protector]

Did anyone opt to retreat? A lot of players seem to be forgetting that they can do that, and it drastically changes the game.

No but from my understanding they can only retreat in their own movement phase, all that does is delay combat one round and allow me to dogpile certain units instead of having the damage spread out. By a tactical decision it is best to only fight one enemy unit per turn because you are then assured to strike first against them and so inflict maximum damage before they can hit back.

We discussed retreating in both games but it looked very disadvantageous and so it never actually happened.

 

[NexS1]

The skinks have a cool ability to retreat 8" instead of piling in 3". that seems advantageous, but you'd have to synchronise with another combat so that the skinks don't get attacked. Either that, or use it as a way to remove attacks from a unit you want to stay alive.

Or something similar

 

[hdctambien]

No but from my understanding they can only retreat in their own movement phase, all that does is delay combat one round and allow me to dogpile certain units instead of having the damage spread out. By a tactical decision it is best to only fight one enemy unit per turn because you are then assured to strike first against them and so inflict maximum damage before they can hit back.

We discussed retreating in both games but it looked very disadvantageous and so it never actually happened.

I think the usefulness of a Retreat is in combination with another unit charging (or being within 3"). If the unit that you are retreating from remains within 3" of one of your units, then the unit you retreat with should be able to escape.

 

[Ixt]

I think the usefulness of a Retreat is in combination with another unit charging (or being within 3"). If the unit that you are retreating from remains within 3" of one of your units, then the unit you retreat with should be able to escape.

Exactly. If you have another unit within 3" (this tends to become common), then they cannot chase you... and you can shoot them to bits. This is huge, and opens up a lot of listbuilding options.

I think that one of the biggest factors in AoS -- even more important than it was in 8th -- is to have a list that is active in every phase in some way, but movement/shooting especially. If you field a meaty unit next to a shooty one, and your shooty guys get charged (but survive -- maybe thanks to Inspiring Presence), the meaty one can hold onto the enemy's unit while your shooty one retreats. Retreating is a way to get out of a bad situation in most cases, yes, but it can also be used to your advantage... sort of like the double-flee in 8th, I suppose.

AoS has caught a lot of flak for, "Charge into the middle and roll dice," but I don't think that it's going to stay that way once people begin to utilize retreating, and also space their units out to avoid the 3" thing. I think we'll see a lot of pivotal combats based around who can get into combat, get out, and keep moving.

 

[protector]

That would be an issue then since I fielded more units than my opponent both times, you could not flee outside of one of my units range. And even if you did your shooting was not as effective as 100% of my army beating 50% of the opponents in close combat, the combat phase is really about who gets to attack first and denying your opponent the ability to attack each of your units back.

the only shooting that was really effective was large monsters and that seemed grossly overpowered, to the point that if I wanted I could literally destroy 50% to 100% of my opponents army turn 1-2 if I wanted to.