AoS Lizardmen and summoning (lets keep discussion civil)

[Avak786]

I had my first opportunity to play a couple of games of AoS today and I must say, our ability to summon almost any unit from our warscroll 3 times (different units) with the Slann and a chance to gain another one using the engine of the gods EVERY TURN is amazing. This is also considering that most of our units are potent combat units capable of dishing out many hard-hitting attacks allowing us to create an almost unending wave of units that don't count towards the sudden death scenarios. On another note, the casting values for many of the units are very low allowing for easy casting (5 or 6 to cast) having a BSB with his standard in the ground and using the Slann's constellation special rule, keep him at the back of the army far away from models that can unbind and he only fails to cast summoning on rolls of a double one or a one and a two.
If anyone else has any summoning tactics, please share them!

 

[elzettako]

which phase is summoning in? is it in the Hero Phase? can a summoned unit move or attack or must it wait a turn?

are there any rules about the placement of summoned units?

 

[Trociu]

which phase is summoning in? is it in the Hero Phase? can a summoned unit move or attack or must it wait a turn?

are there any rules about the placement of summoned units?

Magic, and summoning is a spell, happens in heroes phase. I think every unit (or most at least) are to be placed minimum 9" from enemy.

@Avak786 , have you summoned every unit possible or only the ones you had on the battlefield? Asking for my topic http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/every-warscroll-at-you-disposal.16471/#post-133198

 

[elzettako]

it would be nice if the slann wizard scroll included some rules about summoning. instead of referring to it on every page except the slann one!

 

[Eubrontes]

it would be nice if the slann wizard scroll included some rules about summoning. instead of referring to it on every page except the slann one!

I believe it is because without having the warscroll for that unit the Slann doesn't know the spell. Think of it like the Slann needs to know what units are available to be called in.

One thing I think we need to be mindful of is as more people read the compendium and play against us, they will become more aware of how much of key link in the chain the Slann are. If they can neutralize your Slann or force you to use another spell or ability instead of summoning. This will be up to individual players to find the right feel for you. The balance of units Deployed/Reserved. Is your Slann a conduit for your hard hitting waves or do you want to use the summoning as a defensive fallback.

I feel with my current setup, (Slann, Oldblood, Temp, Cold ones, Skinks, 2-3 Saurus units) I would be more in the mind to deploy the standard units first, and use my Slann to call in the Guards or Cav. Using them to shore up defense or seize the initiative. I am now a bit more tempted to get bigger guys though, to hammer at everyone.

 

[hdctambien]

Why would any army be lead by any Slann besides Lord Kroak?

 

[pendrake]

Why would any army be lead by any Slann besides Lord Kroak?

For that matter why not take Ld.K. and a summoning Slann?

 

[Carados]

Am I missing something or is summoning a bit absurd? I'm looking at Nagash who can summon undead units, but unlike Kroak/Slann, he can potentially cast 8 spells a turn and all the while benefiting from a +3 to cast (at full health).

From what I've gathered so far, only Lizardmen, Vampires and Chaos can summon units. It seems extremely potent.

 

[Ixt]

Well, he is Nagash...

 

[n810]

Reading over the rules,
it seems to me that you can only summon troops like you already have.
(skinks have the "slan can summon more skinks spell")
so if your army only has Saurus you can't summon skinks.
but if you had skinks, you could summon more units than you started with.

 

[Ixt]

My biggest problem with summoning is how hard it could be to unbind what's being summoned, since someone can rest a wizard in the back corner and start plunking away.

That said, I don't know whether that strategy's entirely viable. Like in 8th, this is a listbuilding thing. I'll get to that. In the meantime:

1) The easy-to-summon units are pretty small and give up easy victory points, and the good summons are pretty unreliable (9+ usually). We'll probably see summoners plunk out units of 5-10, and occasionally get a good roll for a big unit. However...

2) Summon spells don't have much of a range. Even with a potent combat unit, they'll probably have a bit of moving around to do to get into combat. With a shooting unit, I could see something of a 'clog' forming, but I'm sure some are quite fast. I think that summoning a ton of shooters could be tough. But, again, most shooters don't do so well in close combat.

3) About range... it's 15" from the caster, 9" from the closest enemy. The ability for our 'scout' units to pick up and leave the board is now incredibly potent, especially if you field two scout units in mid- to grand-scale games. See your opponent being a sneaky summoner? Leave the board. Come back next turn, and Sunleech Bola the crap out of it.

You may lose your units, but it's damage control, much like the rest of this game. Also, I wonder if there is a manner of positioning units which would allow you to outright deny their summons, or force their summons into a very bad position when they enter the board? I think that we'll be seeing at least one unit of 'scouts/ambushers' in most armies.

4) Those spells could be going elsewhere. Something that I've noticed is how much more this game pushes synergy. I mean, it's everywhere, and I think that that's key. If you can cast 3 spells, and you try to summon them all, but your opponent is casting 3 buffs or 3 hexes into an ongoing or upcoming combat, they will definitely be getting a lot more bang for their buck whittling down the more potent forces in your army (remember, summoned units are pretty small unless you get very lucky).

So, yeah, I think that the "summoner in the back corner" is something for Chameleon Skinks and Terradons to take care of... even a Skink Priest with the Cloak of Feathers should be able to close in and unbind. But, we'll see in time.

 

[n810]

Actually summoning chameleons and terradons and flying priest list,
might be a decent army.

 

[Ixt]

Actually summoning chameleons and terradons and flying priest list,
might be a decent army.

Indeed! Without points, lists will be much more versatile.

That said, you have me thinking: what happens when you summon ambushers? It sounds like you can't 'summon them into hiding,' but I'm not sure per the rules. Here's an example:

"Summon Chameleon Skinks has a casting
value of 6. If successfully cast, you can set
up a unit of up to 5 Chameleon Skinks
within 15" of the caster and more than 9"
from any enemy models. The unit is added
to your army but cannot move in the
following movement phase. If the result
of the casting roll was 11 or more, set up a
unit of up to 10 Chameleon Skinks instead."

It can't move in that phase, and can't disappear until the hero phase, but I'm not sure what "can" implies. I think it implies that you "can" put it in a place which complies with the two italicized terms, and that's it. All entries have "can." Still, summoning Skinks directly into cover is quite nice.

 

[n810]

Hopefully your Slan is next to a piece of terrain.

Ps. I would assume
can = may
in this case.

 

[Ixt]

Ps. I would assume
can = may
in this case.

Most likely, yeah.

 

[Blaze]

1) The easy-to-summon units are pretty small and give up easy victory points, and the good summons are pretty unreliable (9+ usually). We'll probably see summoners plunk out units of 5-10, and occasionally get a good roll for a big unit. However...

2) Summon spells don't have much of a range. Even with a potent combat unit, they'll probably have a bit of moving around to do to get into combat. With a shooting unit, I could see something of a 'clog' forming, but I'm sure some are quite fast. I think that summoning a ton of shooters could be tough. But, again, most shooters don't do so well in close combat.

3) About range... it's 15" from the caster, 9" from the closest enemy. The ability for our 'scout' units to pick up and leave the board is now incredibly potent, especially if you field two scout units in mid- to grand-scale games. See your opponent being a sneaky summoner? Leave the board. Come back next turn, and Sunleech Bola the crap out of it.

The rules state summoned units don't count towards victory conditions.

MY question lies in Heroes and special characters, who also have their own summon spell. I take it to mean, you could theoretically have a new Chak'ax every turn (best Slaan protection because he takes wounds instead of Slaan). By turn 4, you have a mini-army of Chak'ax. Same said with BSB - does that mean spell casting bonuses stack?

Start the game with Kroak, a Slaan and two(?) Skink Priests. Kroak summons troops to defend while Slaan uses the Vassal rules and gets more offensive units on the board. Meanwhile, starting with minimum units of troops. 2 Slaan, one priest (more can be summoned) Old Blood on Cold One, BSB, Chakax, GorRok and maybe a squad of TG... Devastating.

 

[Ixt]

The rules state summoned units don't count towards victory conditions.

Glorious Victory, p.2 ...
"Models added to your army during the
game (for example, through summoning,
reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do
not count towards the number of models in
the army, but must be counted among the
casualties an army suffers."

I mostly agree on the other points, though. As of right now, best to hunt down and kill those summoners asap, or house rule no summoning character clones. Not sure about the standard bearer thing. I suppose that it's legal, but it's hard to say.

My contention is that the intent seems to be that you may only summon reinforcements from warscrolls you've taken. Your first example is good (Chakax), but I don't know about the second (army of two slann, two priests summoning a whole army). Maybe I just misread the second one and you meant that you had a whole army ready, just not on the board?

 

[Blaze]

Thanks for that clarification, I am at work atm.

I meant that you would drop the slaan and priest, as well as your future army. Chakax, Gor'Rok, Carnosaur, BSB, Old Blood. You have a threadbare army, but you can summon those meaty units every turn.

Rules say may not move in movement phase... but don't mention charge phase which I took to mean, if you want to try that 10" charge feel free. 10" because you are 9" away and need to be within 1/2"

Thoughts?

 

[Ixt]

Thanks for that clarification, I am at work atm.

I meant that you would drop the slaan and priest, as well as your future army. Chakax, Gor'Rok, Carnosaur, BSB, Old Blood. You have a threadbare army, but you can summon those meaty units every turn.

Rules say may not move in movement phase... but don't mention charge phase which I took to mean, if you want to try that 10" charge feel free. 10" because you are 9" away and need to be within 1/2"

Thoughts?

Before everything, I haven't tried summoning yet. These are my thoughts, however:

A lot of characters aren't as hardy as they used to be, but they also only count as one model for purpose of victory points. So while this strategy may cause them to get shot down within a turn or two (certainly crippled) against armies with even semi-decent shooting, you don't suffer much of a great loss except for wasted time, I guess.

Some of them are also quite hard to summon, which is important to remember. If you summon units, the units are going to be small unless you get lucky.

The game, too, plays much faster than it used to... you'll be giving up a lot of field to your opponent while this is all going on, and they're going to be advancing on your position with both units and characters -- characters, it seems, don't stand up too well to units if they're on foot, and if they get charged. You're looking at a 10" charge in the same turn you summoned your unit -- that's a bit of a stretch without heavy buffing. If you fail, you're most definitely getting charged.

If your opponent has ambushers, you might lose a summoner in a turn or two, or even lose out on summoning due to having to defend your summoner with magic. Then, of course, there's unbinding... mages on foot can move, run, then unbind at 18". So, probably a 25" unbind... and that's just on foot. If they're mounted, you're looking at a significant increase in range. They may not disrupt all of your summons, but they'll disrupt a few.

I say try it! May work, may not. Personally, I see summoning as more of a complementary strategy rather than an all-in strategy, but I haven't tried it just yet.

 

[Blaze]

It's worth trying anyway since most mages only get one unbind.

I think the meta will evolve into smaller games, with less model counts because that's where the victory conditions mostly lie.

I had a squad of 30 Saurus get striped to four members over 4 turns (with the hand weapon, not spears), only just beating a Tomb King on Obsidian Spinx (thing). Made harder because you only halved every wound against it, but it was very powerful and I had all Saurus in combat the whole time. Saurus also get extra +hit and +attack with more numbers, but I found it hard to justify due to the sudden death rules. It seems like if you were going to give your opponent Sudden Death, you really need to commit to it and flood the board.

I feel it's going to be heroes and monsters, which thankfully Lizardmen have lots of. I would take my 30 Temple Guard with me in case I needed bodies plus my Saurus.

A mage can't run and unbind. They can only do it in the Hero Phase. Meaning they need to get close and sit there for a turn. If I have even one Old Blood (Move 10) or skinks around who can arcane missile, that hero is going to try protect himself. Meaning more skink priests, more old bloods etc, it's a war of attrition they won't win especially if you deploy carefully.