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Tutorial Mr. Phats: "What people forget about High Magic"

Good write up and a neat way of reassessing High Magic.

I'm still grappling to get to grips with HM (over my initial choice of WD).
A couple of issues with it are the relatively higher casting costs than WD for a couple of the more useful spells scares me a wee bit.

But more importantly is, how many spells are people actually getting to cast and then swap out? I find on average I can get 1 spell off a turn and so the spell swapping doesn't seem to come into the game all that much.

I was thinking of going back to WD, but I might give HM another run through and see if I can't make it work.
 
Question though about the spell swapping. It's been said quite often in the thread that you should have a plan and stick to it how you want to swap from the beginning. How do you determine the plan? What do you look for when making it?

Also are there certain spells that you rather swap than others and why? I mean I did read the OP but what I'm more trying to figure out is there like a ranking which spell you should swap first and which one last... I tend to try to get Tempest off on turn 1 to get that replaced as it's been already established in here also that the spell itself isn't that great but is the the right way to go?

BR
Agrem
 
@Agrem

I am still strugling with that as well, but it bascically comes down to utilizing the strengths of each lore vs the weaknesses of your opponent.
There was a fantastic video about this on youtube, but i cant find it atm.
 
Phatmotha-phucka said:
I will not however just sit here and take you talking down about my credibility.
Click to expand...

First of, i did not talk down your credibility, nor did i try to do so. I am very direct and sometimes harsh in my posts. Clarity is often hard to find in the written word, and that is why i try to be as clear as possible in everything i write, but it seems that i have gone overboard with that attitude in my last message to the point that i got misconstrued. I am sorry that you feel like i talked you down about a piece you have obviously put a lot of work in, that was never my intention.

With that out of the way, this you call the lore of High Magic ''the strongest lore in the game, without equal'', and i can respect that opinion, but i do dissagree. What i meant to say is that the tone you use in this piece is ''hyping up'' the lore to the point where it feels as if all the spells are better then other spells in the game, which is obviously not true. Lines like: ''T3 horde dies'' and ''this one is a gift from the gods'' will give in my opinion a wrong idea of the spells in this lore, and that is why i advised other readers to take this review with salt, it is not all as good as you make it seem to be.

@protector
And how the heck is the 1st magic turn the most important?

I feel that turn one magic damage is the most important. A model that dies on turn one has 5, or even 6 turns less to shoot, do magic, figth in CC, or even be a fleet in waiting for the game. A model that dies on the last turn in a game has already been a problem for you the entire game. This simple idea is pretty handy to keep in the back of your mind when playing a game, the first strike is sometimes worth double in a game, and this is also true with magic. The lore of High Magic lacks a good nuke spell, i feel that Fiery Convocation is only a mediocre spell, as it is very expensive to cast, it only does a S4 hit and it allows saves, it does hurt, but it does not kill of entire units like the Pit or the Dreaded 13th. This idea is also part of the fact that cannons are as strong as they are, a dead monster often hurts more on turn one then on turn 6.
 
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@laribold

WD is equally potent as HM imo.
It is more straight forward and extremely good for lizardmen.

It really comes down to what list you are building.
Slann in TG? i'd prefer WD over HM
Big combat blocks? WD over HM (unless you are confident that you can get the buffs otherwise).

@Agrem

Its all about your list contra your enemys list.

What can and what can you not deal with?

Lots of high armour targets? = start swapping stuff to metal.

Ogre gutstar? = Might want some shadow to either slow down their movement with miasma, or hit them with pit or pendulum.
Or even Lore of Undeath to raise stuff in their way.

Gunline? = throw everything into heavens and get that comet
this takes a while though, as the comet is something you prefer to have turn one as a threat factor.
If your list have a hard time against Turtle builds, I would either add Tetto or a couple of Heavens priest so you can get it relatively fast.

If you get against a DE Pegasus list I would trade everything I could get of (other than arcane unforging)
for death spells to get the snipers.
Its a real struggle for Pegasus characters to be effective if you can cover the board in Death-threat-zones
(arcane vassal is huge here! ALWAYS include it in your thoughts during movement!)
 
@airjamy - you literally said "this guy exaggerates" and "you should not believe what he says entirely" (Salt)
How the _ _ _ _ is that not talking down about my credibility?
Dont misunderstand this for feelings getting hurt by "harsh" talk, I live and die by straight talk, that is not what this is.
It is about me having a serious problem getting corrected with a simple "this is not true" without a valid argument attached to it.


airjamy said:
Lines like: ''T3 horde dies'' and ''this one is a gift from the gods'' will give in my opinion a wrong idea of the spells in this lore, and that is why i advised other readers to take this review with salt, it is not all as good as you make it seem to be.
Click to expand...

I already did that myself:

"Disclaimer: I realise that some of these "re-writes" will in fact open up to unforeseen abuse.
It is up to the reader to understand my specific intention with the new context, and to not read falsely into it."

I write from the perspective that people here are clever enough to understand that, and I simply cannot be bothered to fool-proof everything.


Sorry if I am the one being harsh now, but I really think your input was badly founded.
That said lets leave it. I don't want to be that a-hole on the internet, neither do I think you to be one.
Lets shake claws and agree to disagree before this gets childish
(I realize its somewhat awkward to propose that after I "gave you back", but here we are.)
 
Phatmotha-phucka said:
Or even Lore of Undeath to raise stuff in their way.
Click to expand...

So, can we also change to lore of undeath with our lore atrribute? I kinda skipped end times, so if i wanna do this where can i find the rule that says ii can?

thx
 
Lore of undeath is a "everyone can use this lore"...lore.
And high magic offers you to swap spells with a lore you normally use :)
 
Phatmotha-phucka said:
Sorry if I am the one being harsh now, but I really think your input was badly founded.
That said lets leave it. I don't want to be that a-hole on the internet, neither do I think you to be one.
Lets shake claws and agree to disagree before this gets childish
(I realize its somewhat awkward to propose that after I "gave you back", but here we are.)
Click to expand...

Well i can only agree to that, i am more then happy to let you have the last snarl at this before people start taking sides. It all comes down to different ways of writing and accepting things, and i am more then willing to accept that we dissagree.
 
I've never swapped for lore of undeath (I don't have the models anyway) and I've never thought about it! That'd be fun!

On the planning of swapping for spells, it's different for every game. Things are obvious like swapping to metal against an empire knight army but more often than not you need to plan on spells with multi-utility use like we talked about before. For example, say I'm playing a WOC army that has a daemon prince. I might save a few dice and go for an arcane unforging against him (granted, this is only because of an IF or what have you that I can get it off turn 1) and IF it destroys his dragonbane gem and there is nothing else in the army to really use the Arcane Unforging against, then I'll swap it for searing doom to use against the daemon nurgle +1 armour prince. Mind you, this is ALL very reliant on factos like 1) If they have the daemon prince 2) If I get first turn. If I go second, there is little chance the DP will allow a second turn of Direct Damage magic against him. But, that's an example of using a spell turn one and then swapping it for a spell I can use the rest of the game.
 
Destroying the Gem to then swap arcane for Searing doom, which is now a viable option as the gem is gone...
..........that right there is as close to martial-art as it gets!


 
No. That's relying on the moon aligning for you. It can work, but the likelyhood comes off as rather low. =]
 
I can speak to this. What I'll add is probably quite obvious, as it's only general advice.

I don't run with WD very often due to (a) its redundancy, and (b) I run my Slann as a killkannon in the early game and a buffwagon in the late game. It's a matter of playstyles, in my opinion. Neither one is better than the other. As PhatMo has repeated: both are excellent, so long as your choice suits the needs of your army.

Something that's typically worked for me at 2500/+ is the following:

A Slann outfitted with both the Soul of Stone and the Focus of Mystery. Either of the power die disciplines (ResoElEn, my go-to choice, or HarmCon) are fine, too, if you want. I usually take one of them, as both are essentially a discount Skink Priest - you trigger the priest's channel die more often than not, and you can usually turn it into a one/two-die spell, amirite? Anyway, make him a BSB with the Standard of Discipline.

Buy a Power Scroll. It works nicely with this strategy. Skink Priest with Heavens and the Cloak of Feathers helps too.

Anyway... choose to go second, if possible. On the first turn, drop a Fiery Convo nuke on their largest or most threatening block of infantry. Use the Power Scroll if you'd like.

If such a target is out of range on turn one - which, normally, it shouldn't be - then you could cast WBW on something very mean first (like a unit of TG w/ Slann), position it well, and drop WBW. If this is the case, then their army is probably quite slow, or a gunline. If it is a gunline, choose Shadow or Light - either signature spell is appropriate here, and both lores have nice tiered spells (given the aforementioned condition). Honestly, you could even pick up Death at this point.

Cast & drop something bogus like Tempest or Soul Quench if you must have WBW back. But, you probably won't. WBW, like Fiery Convo, is a spell that I've traditionally cast once to tip the game in my favor.

Sound inefficient? *shrug* That opening has rarely failed me; practically never when beginning with Fiery.

If t3 gets Fiery'd, then most of their army will probably get mopped up by our infantry outside of HE and WoC. The first round of that spell, alone, can easily crush t3. If they fail to dispel in their turn, then that block is limping after the following to-wound rolls. It'll probably become a free overrun.

If it's T4, still choose Death, or even Beasts.

So, now drop Fiery and roll on Death. You're free to start assassinating characters on turn 2 with just about any of the spells, and you'll dually generate power dice to drop more spells as you see fit later. I have never once "planned my High Magic drops for the whole game from turn one." I plan for two turns, and respond accordingly. It's often:

1) Fiery Convo/WBW -> Death
2) WBW/Fiery Convo -> Light/Shadow for gunlines, Metal/Beasts/Life for about anything else

Edit: I've had some people question the rationale of dropping WBW for a Shadow spell against gunlines. Reason? The Shadow attribute IS Walk Between Worlds! PLUS, it's whatever debuff your spell triggered. Trip Miasma or whatever (hell, six dice Okkam's on his own unit for all I care) at the end of a phase on one die or whatever (because your opponent is still thinking about just how they're going to survive a unit of Jetpack Temple Guard, and still be back for dinner), then swap the Slann with a kick*** Oldblood with a Sword of Bloodshed or whatever right before combat. Sound good to you? Sounds good to me! It's worked pretty well in the past no matter what spell you get, I tell ya that.

It's worked very well for me. I haven't tried it out with Khaine rules just yet, admittedly. From what I've read on here, it sounds that it'd work even better.

One thing that I'm curious about is whether the Slann can elect to change places with a flying Skink after casting Steed of Shadows on himself. I'd imagine not, but does anyone know for sure?
 
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I gave this a well-deserved spot on the Index.

My thought when reading this, is "Wow that was awesome, but I'm not changing my playstyle!"

The main reason I'm not changing my playstyle is that I like variety. I rarely play the same lore on my Slann two games in a row. Though I keep falling back on Wandering Deliberations to minimize my chances of miscasting (since most of the spells are cheap. When it's time to play High Magic again I'll certainly use it differently than before.

Usually I end up swapping for a bit of this and that. Apothesis goes for Life, than I pick up whatever lore I think can counter my enemy. I think you made a convincing argument for consistently swapping spells for swapping for a single lore repeatedly until you get the überspell you were hoping for. My old thought was that "Well if I'm going to swap out three or four spells for Shadow, why not start with Shadow to get them in turn one and save some points." You make a convincing argument for me to reexamine this. The next time I play High Magic I'll consider focusing on a smaller number of swapping lores.

There is a time value of money. A dollar today is more valuable than a dollar next week. I want the good spells now. I don't want them in turn 2 (or turn 4). Generally when I get the spell I was hoping for it's so late in the game it barely matters. I am also not a big fan of Fiery Convocation. Part of that is playstyle. I prefer lots of cheap spells as opposed to one big spell. I don't like the miscast chance. I don't like the chance of an outright failed casting, and I don't like the fact that most T4 enemies aren't very bothered by the spell. I am even less a fan of Tempest. It seems to be there solely to be swapped out. Why cast a spell I don't want, even once.

You make a good case for power scrolls or powerstones. Still, I really really like the Book of Ashur, Channeling Staff, and Forbidden Rod. That's some hefty competition for the Slann's arcane item slot.

I guess I'm not a huge risk taker. I'll try it, but if I spend a whole game wishing and praying for spell X and don't get it with fou

borkbork said:
So, can we also change to lore of undeath with our lore atrribute? I kinda skipped end times, so if i wanna do this where can i find the rule that says ii can?
Click to expand...

The specific wording of Wandering Deliberations prevents WD Slann from getting Ryze, but the RAW make it crystal clear that High Magic Slann can take Undeath since the Slann could have theoretically taken the Lore of Undeath in place of HIgh Magic. Now if WD Slann got FAQed to get Ryze I'd be happy as an Orc in the Moot, but that's not going to happy.

A FOM Slann can take High magic, but I'm not sure a FOM Slann should take High Magic. I plan to try it because I like Lizardmen and I like LM necromancers.

Most of the WHF players in my area haven't sold their models yet but they are reluctant to put too much energy into the hobby until they can have some reassurance that 9th edition won't void thier model collection, so I probably can't play test it soon.

Anyway my old theoryhammer was if your High Magic Slann ends up taking three or four Undeath spells via swaps then you might as well take Undeath at the beginning and I had stated that you would hope for Razkhar and settle for Ryze if you don't get and then stop. I did not like Undeath the times I tried Skink with Undeath, so I figured I wouldn't want a Slann with one or two Undeath spells. But P-P made me reexamine the merits of dipping into a lore multiple times. Also, now that I think of it, my turn one summoning spells haven't been that useful (one major exception but that Spirit Host was the only good thing to happen that game so I'll call it a wash)

So lets pretend you have packed your undead models with you and you are taking a FOM of Slann and going to do all your swaps for undeath.

The main advantage is that High Magic has buffs and direct damage, two things Undeath is generally lacking, so there is some synergy. The main disadvantage is you will be Raise the Dead token poor. Also there are too spells which will be total stinkers.

Morkharn sucks if your base army isn't undead. It especially pales in comparison to Apothesis and Walk Between Worlds. Swap for Ryze.

Sulekhim only really helps if your wizard can fight a challenge. Not a good for most Slann. Swap for Ryze.

Khizzar. This is a low range magic missile that nets you bonus tokens (very important) and inflicts significant ouchies on low Ld units. Most armies have something with low Ld. I'd keep this spell as long as you have an arcane vassal on the board. 4 times out of five it will outperform Soul Quench. In certain matchups it will outperform the signature spells of the BRB lores. Even if you don't have an Arcane vassal you probably don't want to swap it for Ryze because then you might get stuck with Sulekhim or Morkharn later. Yerch.

Razkhar. This is the spell you want early. This lets you summon Spirit Hosts without tokens or nice big blocks of dire wolves, without tokens. It summons better roadblock units than Ryze because Ryze really wants tokens.

Kandorak. Late game you can use a few Raise the Dead Tokens and six dice this spell to get a Terrorgheist or equivalent. You can summon some decent monsters with 200 points, but when you are casting a 24+ spell you really want to have tokens saved up for the good stuff.

If you get it early game you can summon cairn wraiths or naked necromancers to build up tokens. Cairn wraiths aren't a half-bad roadblock (though I prefer the wound count on Spirit Hosts). Necromancers give you another token. Since you are trying to build up the spell list of Undeath as quick as possible, you might as well summon Necromancers with the Lore of Undeath. If your zero point wizard rolls Morkharn or Sulekim, keep it (the Necromancer was mostly there for the extra channel anyway). Now your Slann can't possibly get that spell and the odds of choosing a spell goes higher.

Akar'aran. If you roll it early game summon Hexwraiths for roadblocks and to get tokens. If you roll it late game summon units of Black Knights behind or to the flank of enemies engaging your Slann's bunker.

I like Ryze, but I really like Ryze with tokens. A single token is the difference between three Crypt Horrors and four, or between ten skeletons and 20 zombies or between 10 ghouls and 10 grave guard. That's a downside when you consider how hard up for tokens. If you get saddled with Ryze early, I recommend skipping the 50 point level and going for the 100 and 150 point level so you can summon stuff you can actually use without tokens.

Hey @rottedtoad, any thoughts on using a FOM Slann with lots of Undeath swaps. You mentioned the downside of a hyperaggressive Undeath strategy is you don't get buffs or nuke spells and High Magic has both of those. Is that a match made in heaven, or an awkward match like in Corpse Bride that will never work?
 
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as one who havnt even tried lore of undeath, that sure was a good motivation :D
 
Hello all,
Thought I would chime in a bit with my 2 cents.

I love the lore of High Magic, but more so than that, I enjoy playing using the ETC format. This lore has an added benefit when running an ETC list that no one has touched on yet. We can get as many death spells as we want without having to worry about using one of our pool points.

Seeing as our slann uses a point on his own, and each cowboy beyond the first costs two points, we can use all the spare points we can get.

My usual configuration for high magic is:
Turn one try to get tempest and fiery convocation off. Then swap those for lore of death spells (hoping for soulblight and purple sun).
Turn two use soul quench to clear out some chaff and try to get apotheosis and dispel magic off. If I did not get soulblight or purple sun, I go back into death with soul quench. If I did get good spells in death already, I go for the magic missile that best fits the situation (fireball for trees and regen, spirit leech for big character, searing doom if they have A lot of high armour models, or shems burning gaze for daemons and undead.) Apotheosis and dispel magic go into life.

This gives me 2 spells from death, 2 from life, an adaptable magic missile, and leaves me with hand, arcane unforging, and walk between. A pretty nice setup if you ask me.

Also, if they have very few heavily tooled characters then I will usually drop arcane unforging for another spell in lore of death or life.

I have found that this configuration works quite well in an ETC format, and we get to use a heavily comped lore for free. It also allows for a complete tooling of spells to fit most situations that you will encounter.

P.S. I never drop fiery convocation when against goblins, skaven, or undead. I melted an entire horde of stormvermin 60 strong in 2 magic phases.
 
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